Rocky

18 hours ago, cman said:

depends on what you are looking to see

A man sees/hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest...

25 minutes ago, Charity said:

Replacing illogical thinking with rational thinking requires some concentrated work to be done.  

It (changing one's thinking or values or understanding of spiritual matters) requires time and patience. It doesn't (and can't) happen overnight.  

On 5/29/2024 at 9:49 AM, Charity said:

what should someone do when a biblical concept they have put their faith in proves to be untrue? 

What should one do when they lose trust and become disillusioned?  1) realize they aren't proving anything either wrong or right. Rather, they are coming to grips with reality. 2) realize the narrative on which they have built their "relationship with God" is all about stories. The stories, it appears, are not holding true under the challenges of contemporary life. 

4 hours ago, penworks said:

What does that say about such people?

More than likely it says they don't let themselves be consciously aware of all the bad stuff that WE couldn't overlook.

It reminds me of when, as a young adult, hearing in some church (probably a military base chapel somewhere) people justifying their loyalties to the Baptist Church or some other such group that was also highly flawed.

I understand you being aware of the evil in twi. Denial is a very powerful emotional defense mechanism.

3 minutes ago, Charity said:

I'm not saying you are implying I'm not free to speak, but it explains where I am coming from when I do. 

I get it. I've been at this (developing my hopefully more mature perspective on spiritual and religious matters) for more than 30 years. 

It can take time for a person to make such changes.  

https://youtube.com/shorts/d2U-UZRTRuE?si=TKKE2oXYayHuv61_

The link is to a YT short. It won't post the preview because there's a forbidden character in the preview title. What a PITA.

Anyway, it's about 6 practices of stoics. I don't flatter myself by saying it means I have a high IQ, but anyone can build these practices into their lives if they find them valuable.

Believers AND unbelievers can do these things and see benefit in their lives. 

Just now, Charity said:

That's good to hear Rocky.  But for those who take it as the inerrant words of God, it often results in fearful and shameful beliefs being taught to children and who then reaffirm those beliefs to themselves once they are grown. 

Didn't I (this morning) just read that you consider yourself atheist? I hope you are not still taking the words in the bible as the inerrant words of God. Even if so, I hope you can recognize the need to re-evaluate that position.

OTOH, are you suggesting it to be problematic how believer parents indoctrinate their children with that biblical perspective?

If so, I can see how you'd come to that conclusion. But YOU do not own what those parents are doing to their children. You and I have enough of a burden figuring out how to cope with our own foibles and make adjustments to our own attitudes, beliefs, and actions without taking on the burdens of others in that way.

39 minutes ago, Charity said:

Prov 22:6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it. 

I agree it's a wise saying and offers hope to parents, but it's not always true.  And in some cases, it's even a good thing when it doesn't. 

This "wise saying" reflects the nature of story much more so than that what's in the bible is the inerrant words of a God... IMO.

4 hours ago, Charity said:

 

Did you have any strong beliefs about God before you became involved with twi?  You went through a lot more than I ever did and you've come through a lot since leaving.  Do you think any of it still has some impact on your life?

I was born into an Italian family in upstate NY. I was baptized into the Catholic Church and attended five years of Catholic (elementary) school. It was, on the whole, a major influence in my childhood. It sowed the seeds of longing for communion with God. IOW, it was instrumental in plowing the fields of my mind to prepare me for Wierwille's cult.

When my children (one of mine and a stepson) were elementary school age, I became very involved in advocacy for public schools, both political and involvement with school district leadership.

That was when I began reading regularly and extensively to satisfy curiosities and answer questions that frequently came up as I faced and endured life's challenges.

Of course my childhood still has impact in and on my life. We each, individually and together, are the sum and substance of our life experience. I'm in my 70th year in this life (I have completed half of my 70th trip around the sun). I've been around the block a time or two. I've face my share of travails. 

I realize that's vague. But it's the best answer I can give you this evening.

2 hours ago, Charity said:

1 My son, if thou wilt receive my words, and hide my commandments with thee;

Well... proverbs was written by a specific person or people to specific persons or people.

That doesn't mean any OTHER people would be unable to cultivate long term curiosity. I get it. it took me years to get beyond the chains Wierwille installed in my brain.

Think about what scientists, mathematicians, or philosophers having curiosity to figure out things they are interested in. Wierwille and Martindale were adamant that any new insight about ANYTHING was ONLY revelation from God. I (NOW) say that's malarkey.

Here's another thing that we, in TWI, thought was US as individuals tapping into the power of a specific God.

Meditation alone in nature. 42 or 43 years ago, I spent a year as a Wow in Fremont, Ohio. In the Spring of 1982, I started spending some time in a small woods environment along Muskellunge Creek Road, immediately south of State Street. It was my happy place. I felt like I was communing with God.

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=fremont+ohio+map&atb=v353-1&t=chromentp&iaxm=maps&source=maps

What was really happening is better described as achieving a FLOW state.

The irony, looking back on it, is in that it was and is something that is not at all unique to TWI or any other flavor or sect of Christianity.

It took me a VERY LONNNNNGGG time to recognize and realize this aspect of FLOW. When I did, it was freeing in a very real way. I could accomplish things without reference to anything Wierwille.

As far as a biblical key, I found it in Proverbs 2: 1-5.

It took many long hours (over the course of years) it took me to overcome the chains Victor Wierwille planted in my brain in his PFLAP classes (read ONLY this and not that), 

Why? Could it have been because I had been indoctrinated ("trained") to be afraid of world wisdom?

11 minutes ago, Nathan_Jr said:

Someone said “GSC grads.”

A gloveless concept.

Reminds me of that charlatan.

 

Many people say...   

IMO, it's absurd to frame people coming to GSC and then no longer needing it in TWI terms. 

51 minutes ago, Charity said:

If the experiences are being exclusively labeled as miracles (either inside or outside of twi), do you mean they are, are not, or possibly can be actual miracles?  I'm not sure of the point you are making by your last sentence.

 

No. I mean that unexplained, unexplainable phenomena that we considered miracles and thought was exclusive to twi (the "household") takes place whether the person is a believer or not.

22 hours ago, Rocky said:

God makes the rain to fall on the believers and unbelievers... or some such similar expression.

It's thought of and described in secular circles as synchronicity. 

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/503350.The_Tao_of_Psychology

6 minutes ago, Raf said:

Touche! Repeatedly would have been the better word!

My perspective is that words matter. Yet, sometimes I can be too picky. I'm thankful for the kind hearted way you took this one. 

54 minutes ago, Raf said:

He was invited to talk it out, let's work this out, we don't want you to leave, but you're constantly violating the no politics rule, man. But he declined to have a real discussion. 

Constantly or repeatedly? 

21 hours ago, Nathan_Jr said:

Atheists are not precluded from an experience or conscious awareness of the transcendent, the mystical, the “spiritual.” Nor are they precluded from “a walk endowed with power from on high.” I use these terms and phrases for convenience, in spite of their insufficiency.

Not only so, but recognition thereof was an important development in my (still extremely limited) understanding of spirituality in general.

IOW, recognizing experiences we, while in twi, exclusively labeled as miracles due to God honoring our faithfulness, were NOT in fact limited to a certain parochial group of fundamentalist Wierwillites was a BFD for me.

God makes the rain to fall on the believers and unbelievers... or some such similar expression.

3 hours ago, Charity said:

I'm interested in what insight others might have as to why some Christians become frustrated, angry or uncivil with atheists.

Emotional insecurity or immaturity perhaps.

3 hours ago, Charity said:

What a great video Rocky.  It's funny and it's about atheism, the "miracle" of modern medicine and some good life lessons one of which is how donating blood saves lives.  Were you interested in reading the book?

Definitely. 

I can't say I knew what motivated you to do so, but I respect the end result of your thought process in forming the reply to chockful. 

[Moderator's note: this post originally quoted another post that is being hidden for moderator's review. The hidden post violated no rules but responds to another hidden post that did. The remainder of THIS post is of independent value].

Also, I've read at least one book by author Sebastian Junger and respect his insight on life individually and with other humans.

I watched this (non-comedic) interview this evening and thought it might appropriately fit in this thread.

On 5/20/2024 at 8:10 AM, Raf said:

One of the first things I realized pre-deconversion is that the story of Job was just a story and not history. It does not pretend to have actually taken place in history. It was a fable, no more historical than The Fox and the Grapes.

Adam, Eve, Cain, Abel, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob... fictional characters in an origin story designed to unify a politically vulnerable people.

It took a little longer for Moses and Joshua to sink in.

2 hours ago, Raf said:

If that was only implicit then I am not doing my job as a communicator.

Well, did you say it in words that you wrote? Sorry if you don't like the word "implicit."

27 minutes ago, Raf said:

Why is death the wage of sin? God could have made the wage of sin anything he wanted. $3.50. But he made it death. Why?

Maybe implicit in your post is that it really wasn't God who decided the wage(s) of sin was/is death, but rather it was a whole bunch of societal elders instead.

What would or does that possibility say about that bunch of elders if indeed it more fairly and correctly was the old (white?) guys who came up with it?  

7 hours ago, Raf said:

William Lane Craig is the master of the Gish Gallop, a form of debate in which you efficiently spout as much bulls hit in the time allotted as you possibly can. Since it takes more time to clean bulls hit than it does to defecate it, the opponent will leave some arguments unanswered strictly because there's not enough time in the world to answer it. Then Craig cites all the points he made that were not refuted and declares victory.

Meanwhile ALL his arguments are bulls hit. All of them, without exception or distinction.

https://www.rand.org/pubs/perspectives/PE198.html

Where does it come from? The Russian propaganda model of Firehose of Falsehoods.

22 hours ago, Charity said:

Thanks Rocky.  I'm giving it all a rest.  I'll check in for topics of interest though and perhaps post about those. 

Rest is a very good thing for a person and her (or his) mind to do. Best wishes. 

4 hours ago, Charity said:

I’m beginning to better understand why some Christians who believe in God but agree with the fictional storytelling of the OT will balance or cancel out the negative character of the OT God leaving God with the more positive image shown in the NT. 

My admonition: stay curious.

I just ran across this reference to a new book dealing with an aspect of deconverting: (From the Amazon blurb)

A gripping memoir about coming of age in the stay-at-home daughter movement and the quest to piece together a future on your own terms.
 
Raised in the Christian patriarchy movement, Cait West was homeschooled and could only wear clothes her father deemed modest. She was five years old the first time she was told her swimsuit was too revealing, to go change. There would be no college in her future, no career. She was a stay-at-home daughter and would move out only when her father allowed her to become a wife. She was trained to serve men, and her life would never be her own.  
 
Until she escaped.  
 
In Rift, Cait West tells a harrowing story of chaos and control hidden beneath the facade of a happy family. Weaving together lyrical meditations on the geology of the places her family lived with her story of spiritual and emotional manipulation as a stay-at-home daughter, Cait creates a stirring portrait of one young woman’s growing awareness that she is experiencing abuse. With the ground shifting beneath her feet, Cait mustered the courage to break free from all she’d ever known and choose a future of her own making. 
 
Rift is a story of survival. It’s also a story about what happens after you survive. With compassion and clarity, Cait explores the complex legacy of patriarchal religious trauma in her life, including the ways she has also been complicit in systems of oppression. A remarkable literary debut, Rift offers an essential personal perspective on the fraught legacy of purity culture and recent reckonings with abuse in Christian communities.

Only tangentially related to this thread, We are Made of Stories by Leslie Umberger

Recasting American art history to embrace artists who have been excluded for too long, We Are Made of Stories vividly captures the power of art to show us the world through the eyes of another.