Rocky

2 hours ago, Charity said:

In the vacuum of that powerlessness, “obedience becomes our comfort, submission becomes cathartic, trust becomes our crutch that helps us get through the day. 

Wow! Yeah, I suppose that's true. I don't prioritize obedience to any human's version of what God wants me to do or believe. I hope, Charity that you get comfort from what you're figuring out. 

What is  a fish storm? https://weather.com/storms/hurricane/video/breaking-down-the-phrase-a-fish-storm

12 minutes ago, Nathan_Jr said:

Notice, the more you know, the more you question; the less you know, the easier it is to be sure of your stupid, stupid beliefs.

 

A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool. -- Shakespeare, Wm

16 hours ago, Charity said:

I did take your comment "However, the problem-filled lives of teenagers trying to figure out how to become integrated into society IS a necessary burden for both sides to solve somehow." in the context of my post referring to different religious beliefs between parents and their children.  

You wrote "I believe we are millennia beyond blaming religious institutions for being part of the problem."  Just checking for some clarification.  Are you saying that religious institutions do not play as big of a role in today's worldly problems? 

Not necessarily directly. IMO, the problem is millennia-old orthodoxy that's extremely difficult for people to get beyond. 

Yes, many churches are problematic today. But not all of them. I think of definitions of cult, cults, and cultism as high-demand groups and organizations.

Ones that are not high-demand groups still deal with problematic doctrine and orthodoxy, but can and in many cases do provide positive benefit to society. I am not interested in naming names of groups which aren't bad.

5 hours ago, Charity said:

You bring up another reality, Rocky, of the harm cult-like religious doctrine causes those leaving those doctrines especially if they grew up in that culture.  I hope your daughter and grandchildren find growing peace and inner strength.

Concerning religion playing a part in helping teenagers and others cope, I have to honestly say that as long as they teach "we are all sinners and have fallen short of the glory of God and need saving," they continue to be part of the problem.  Don't you think the words "God/Jesus loves you" are a bit hypocritical when he is the author of this shame-based doctrine?

I didn't bring that up, though perhaps you thought of it as a result of reading my comment.

I too hope my family find growing peace and inner strength. I believe we are millennia beyond blaming religious institutions for being part of the problem. The problem(s) is/are what gets built into the brains/minds of hundreds of millions of people, IMO. Solving it/them is (also IMO) massively complicated. Can society/civilization be changed? Gosh, wouldn't that be nice. Curiosity, aka spiritual hunger, has been a major factor in promulgation of cults. Actually, as I see it now, it's far bigger than I can imagine.

Quote

The problem-filled gap between believing parents and their unbelieving teenaged and/or adult children is an unnecessary burden for either side to bear.

However, the problem-filled lives of teenagers trying to figure out how to become integrated into society IS a necessary burden for both sides to solve somehow.

ln today's version of Western Civilization, doesn't religion (Christianity) present (obviously imperfect) ways to cope with those problems?

I remember being thankful for my nieces and nephews having a structure to guide them along that path. Now it's a set of problems my daughter and grandchildren are navigating... IMO very complicated and not so easy. Just my limited point of view.

3 hours ago, Junior Corps Surviver said:

They don't own that music. Just saying. That's a Takit record.  

Is anyone likely to sue them for using it? Btw, it sounded more like Good Seed to me. I'm an old guy, I could be wrong.

7 hours ago, Nathan_Jr said:

"Good fun, good food, good fellowship, and GREAT Word!"

 

Is GREAT Word TWI's answer to Loy's HOT Bible?

 

 

 

Thanks Nathan for posting that YT vid.

I feel sorry for the people who committed a year (or however much time) to this latest iteration of the way ambassador outreach program. Old wine skins, as the bible says.

5 hours ago, Charity said:

I don't have the intestinal fortitude to watch this right now - and most likely ever.  Any word on how The Young Adult Rock 2024 went?

 

It's not so much cringe worthy as an attempt to invoke nostalgia by way of using VERY OLD way music.

3 hours ago, frank123lol said:

For all, No matter what happened we want to see you! New and improved cemented in love! Pie in the sky something! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIQpuKHHI-E

I'm not getting the connection to ROA 2025. Please at least give a clue or two. 

20 hours ago, Nathan_Jr said:

Saved from what?

Fair question. It goes to the heart (or core) of what we understand, and unquestioningly accept as the essence of Christianity.

It may have been more apparent centuries ago that humankind (and humans individually) needed saving from the fallen nature of the "old man."

There are so many more people on Earth now as a result of advances in agriculture and science, that it may not seem as universally true these days.

Then again, maybe people will post cogent arguments to answer your question here soon.

7 hours ago, Charity said:

A hunger to gain spiritual insight as it relates to one's spirit defined as "the nonphysical part of a person which is the seat of emotions and character" is a wonderful thing.  A belief in a god is not required. 

In fact, after relying so long on mythical beliefs for your identity, such a hunger is necessary in order to avoid nihilism after deconstructing.

This is essentially why Proverbs 2:1-5 is my favorite scripture passage. 

Btw, it just now occurred to me that those who stopped being active on GSC over the last year or two, when they complained about people disagreeing with them about the bible, may really boil down to, for them, a lack of that hunger for spiritual insight... I can't say I know that I know that I know such a thing. Because I can't tell what's really going on in their heart of hearts. But it seems plausible.

4 hours ago, Charity said:

The opening post of this thread began with "of interest to anyone?"  Even though I believe the bible was written by men based on their man-made beliefs in God, I am interested in how she knows what she believes now falls under the description of being perfect. 

I hope you don't get too disappointed if she never responds to your inquiry. I figure many (most?) people never consider the question at all.

I only do because I embrace (rather than shy away from) uncomfortable questions, with curiosity. 

8 hours ago, Charity said:

"Fact" was not the best word to have used in my post when mentioning how many Christian denominations are in the world.  It's what came up first on a simple google search - admittedly, not the most in-depth way to research something.

Concerning your mention of stories above, the first gospel was written over 30 years after the life and death of Jesus.  (“The Gospel of Mark probably dates from c. AD 66–70, Matthew and Luke around AD 85–90, and John AD 90–110.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel)

Also, “The majority of New Testament scholars also agree that the Gospels do not contain eyewitness accounts; but that they present the theologies of their communities rather than the testimony of eyewitnesses.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_reliability_of_the_Gospels

One has to take it on faith when believing the gospels (which contains Jesus' perfect interpretation of the law and the prophets according to the opening post) were inspired by God and not simply stories (imo) passed on by men for most likely self-serving political and/or religious reasons.

Remaining on topic of this thread, I think any interpretation of the Bible is that of the person teaching it.  Calling it "Jesus' perfect interpretation" is a fallacy. 

 

I have no problem with you using the word "fact" in your post/comment.

Further, I now believe "inspired by God" has a much broader meaning than what Victor Wierwille taught us. I believe something (one says or writes) CAN be "inspired" by God even though it's not necessarily directly given by God (whomever (or whatever form) she or he may actually be) verbatim. But that's an entirely different discussion.

Nevertheless, I take no issue with your post/comment and appreciate the thought you put into it.   

21 hours ago, Charity said:

Fact - There are more than 45,000 Christian denominations globally and more than 200 in the U.S., according to the Center for the Study of Global Christianity. 

I'm not going to fact check the number in your claim, but I acknowledge your overall point.

I listened to a discussion between Steven Pinker (cognitive scientist) and an interviewer with the Free Press. The interview is NOT politics.

Though the clip is about 44 minutes long, I got the main takeaway very early on in the interview. Essentially, for thousands of years, facts eluded most people. 

Therefore, people evolved to learn from and believe STORIES. Stories that made the most sense to the people hearing them at the time.

For those thousands of years, one of the main objectives of humans (who lived and traveled in TRIBES) revolved around survival.

Facts did not always provide protection for the tribes.

Today we have databases and research that rapidly contribute to the amount of truthful and factual knowledge. However, people STILL are inclined to learn from and believe their favored stories that contribute to their tribe's wellbeing. Religion is one of those areas of knowledge that is evolving rapidly. Victor Wierwille, even if he had been an honest seeker of the truth of God's Word, did not seem to contribute to any database or factual knowledge that humanity in general has been able to benefit from.

If you'd like to check it out, here it is.

6 hours ago, annio said:

Of interest to anyone? I just read a statement* re: JESUS "being the perfect interpretation (my emphasis) of the Bible"; the author uses Mathew 5:17-20 to discuss how the Old Covenant law was simply "an incomplete revelation of God's heart", and how the Pharisees' unhealthy interpretations of Scripture were WRONG. Jesus, on the other hand, came to fulfill/complete the OT Covenant, AND to "show the very heart of God, and how He wants his People to live in His Kingdom".  Thus JESUS "confronts the very unhealthy teachings and interpretations of the law in His day by the religious elite" and is the chief interpreter of Scripture, "because the law points to HIM" and His teaching (interpreting) ministry.

This was new for me! I had heard a respected ex-twi leader declare "Ah, the Holy Spirit is the Interpreter of Scripture!" But never Jesus. But now that I think about it, since the Comforter is come to lead us into all truth, and since Jesus is still alive and well, and leading and guiding us in perfect harmony w/ the Holy Spirit, it makes perfect sense!!!!!! This expands the Red Thread concept beautifully, I think! And confronts vp's doctrinal, practical, and horribly Pharisaical teachings on several different levels!!

*from Spark by EJ Martone (my Assembly of God pastor)

Well... other than the "I'm right and they're wrong" aspect of your post I figure there could be some reasonable insight to looking at Jesus as fulfillment of OT law.

I totally reject the paradigm of black/white, wrong/right interpretations of scripture. WE (humans/humanity) IMO are far too limited to be able to clearly define (most) interpretations of scripture as such.

Stay curious and be willing to consider new ways to look at them. Just sayin'.  

This showed up in my YouTube feed this morning. 

Helen was a lovely friend on FB, a wonderful wife to Wolfgang, and a proud mother and grandmother. She is already sorely missed.

Btw, she and Wolfgang were in the 7th corps, IIRC.

1 hour ago, Charity said:

But I see your point - the reality is that they are humans defending what they as humans have chosen to believe.    I hope this makes sense.

Of course it makes sense.

EVERY human is highly qualified to rationalize and therefore justify what they believe about anything, including what they consider God. Same goes for EVERY religion. There is no religion that can rightly claim their God (or god or gods) is/are the only true God and that they can prove it.

It's all about taking it on faith. IOW, every religion has an origin story and a narrative about what they believe is THE truth.

32 minutes ago, Charity said:

I've always wondered about this and now suggest there is a double standard applied by believers where personal reasons for accepting Christianity is lauded yet those same reasons are criticized when they play a part in letting go of it.    

There seems to be more though[t] than just human nature being involved in their need to criticize anyone who does the latter.  I think it’s the belief that since God can do no wrong, it is always wrong of the person if they leave the faith. 

Even IF it's "belief that since God can do no wrong, it is always wrong of the person if they leave the faith..." that's just how a person's very human rationalization for their criticism is simply a manifestation of the human tendency to criticize something they disagree with.

1 hour ago, Charity said:

why are Christians critical of those like me who let go of Christianity when facing challenges because I no longer accept/believe that God is all present, all loving and one who heals?

I certainly don't speak for anyone who criticizes anyone like you. But I do suspect the culprit may be human nature which finds ways and reasons to justify criticizing anyone with whom they disagree. 

I'd recommend, to the extent possible, you just let go of your irritation (or whatever you experience) when recognizing such criticism of you and your path.

We ALL get criticized. Sometimes justly, other times not. 

22 hours ago, Junior Corps Surviver said:

I did but his offer derailed me for two years. I was foolish for listening to him. 

Yeah, I get it. However, you became the you that you are because of the decision that you made. 

IOW, I look at the fact that I didn't graduate from college until I was 31 differently, though my detours were both US military service and TWI.

I lived some life and gained some insight I wouldn't have been able to if not for the experiences, good and bad, I had as a young adult. 

Ultimately, I expect to reach my 70th birthday this year. I'm a survivor. My first introduction to twi was in October 1974.

14 hours ago, Junior Corps Surviver said:

Oh the promises he made me. car, salary, staff, house. Foolishly it prevented me from going to college. I had an involuntary "gap year". 

I hope you eventually did go to college.

On 7/4/2024 at 9:07 AM, WordWolf said:

They may have a few betamax machines.  Most were supposed to be bought locally. All expenses were paid for out-of-pocket by everyone on the field. All vcrs were bought and maintained locally. All classes were held in places rented by, or owned by, locals.  So, locals everywhere were SOL when the decision to go betamax yielded the result of a dead-end system that nobody else used.   That decision was made by someone who had a 50/50 chance of making the right decision, and supposedly heard from God Almighty before making any decisions, or, indeed, opening his mouth.

IMO, not only did decision makers at HQ not "get revelation" for making good decisions, they apparently also lacked good business sense as well as sound foresight. Especially concerning disruptive technological innovation and the accelerating nature thereof. Just sayin'.  

19 hours ago, Junior Corps Surviver said:

I haven't seen one in years. It's funny now but at the time when LCM said I would have one someday after I am ordained, I thought that sounded like a sweet deal. 

One might reasonably surmise that to be the reason he said it.