5 hours ago, chockfull said:

I mean if TWI is feeling squirrelly there is a statement of fact that if proven wrong could sustain slander charges.  Yet no action at all.  Why?  Because it is true and truth is a defense to slander.
 

This is similar to GSC.  The Way leaders have tried multiple tactics to get this site torn down, kicked off its hosting platform, etc.  However we tell the truth here and you can’t shut down truth.

Yet cultfacts website notably differs from GSC. The cultfacts AI generated website doesn't have ANY first person accounts of the things it claims, does it? 

We tell the truth here? For the most part, hopefully, YES. Most significantly, when a person tells her or his first person account, they aren't slandering twi, per se. They are telling THEIR OWN truth.

5 hours ago, chockfull said:

Did you find even one example of a footnoted source that was inaccurate or are you just spreading false rumors?

I see them as exaggeration. Your dichotomy, IMO, doesn't represent the entire universe of possibilities. 

That a "footnoted" source isn't a bona fide truth, in some cases (e.g. making a claim it says is fact, but not necessarily from a credible source. If a footnoted source references an actual legal/judicial ruling, it can reasonably be inferred to be factual) If a claim is just "my AI found it in writing on line somewhere" it's not nearly as credible.
 

That's how I, after mulling it over for a month or so, can reasonably infer some of the claims are exaggerations, some of them more exaggerated than others.

The first claim on the cultfacts site, regarding TWI, is "up to 50 high-ranking members conspired to coerce..."

Cannot be found to be credible on its face. "Up to..." is a rhetorical expression (often used in marketing contexts) reasonably understood to be vague enough to dismiss on its face (prima facie).

50-high ranking members? Legally speaking, there are no where near 50 "members" of TWI. In this context, one might reasonably expect the so-called members are voting members of the legal body known as TWI. Even IF there were 50 "high ranking" members, what's the likelihood of getting those 50 "members" to likemindedly conspire anything?

"A conspiracy, also known as a plot, is a secret plan or agreement between people (called conspirers or conspirators) for an unlawful or harmful purpose, such as murder, treason, or corruption, especially with political motivation,[1] while keeping their agreement secret from the public or from other people affected by it."

IOW, twi will likely bristle a LOT over this, but eventually will get over it without these claims having any legal impact.

You may (reasonably) not be convinced the site was built by an AI, but I am convinced.

Actually, it's not a bad first effort to do so. 

I appreciate your probing reflection on the situation. 

Example of AI inaccuracies.

Thanks for bumping the thread. I just viewed this YT video from 60 MInutes coverage of AI, several segments, one of which is from 2109.

One of the important points 60 Minutes made, is that AI is NOT always correct. 

When an AI makes mistakes and says things that are NOT true, the industry calls those instances "hallucinations."

IIRC, when I first (or shortly thereafter) saw the cultfacts website entry for TWI, my impression was 1) it was built by AI, and 2) it was not 100 percent correct, even though it had notes/citations for the claims it made.

Now, I am not as concerned about whether TWI will challenge the factual basis or legality of the claims. However, I still wonder how they've responded/reacted to it.

2 minutes ago, Rocky said:

I encourage your thoughts and actions along those lines. 

Selected resources

Seven Habits of Highly Effective People by Stephen Covey

The Obstacle is the Way by Ryan Holiday

Stillness is the Key by Ryan Holiday

Ego is the Enemy by Ryan Holiday

Discipline is Destiny by Ryan Holiday

The Road Less Traveled by M Scott Peck

People of the Lie: The Hope for Healing Human Evil by M Scott Peck

And because Two are better than One, 

The Different Drum: Community Making and Peace by M Scott Peck

And there are MANY more.

My son, if you accept my words
    and store up my commands within you,
² turning your ear to wisdom
    and applying your heart to understanding—
³ indeed, if you call out for insight
    and cry aloud for understanding,
⁴ and if you look for it as for silver
    and search for it as for hidden treasure,
⁵ then you will understand the fear of the Lord
    and find the knowledge of God

10 hours ago, Nathan_Jr said:

Whose brittle ears are we choosing to protect from offense by reporting "sexual assault" instead of rape for the glory of Allah?

Again, the question becomes who is WE. News enterprises, IMO, are not the readers thereof.

When it comes to choice and choosing, I believe it's most important for US (us) to be mindful of that which we have within our control and choose wisely. When we try to choose for someone or something of which we have NO control or direct influence, we choose endless frustration and promote helplessness.

Becoming mindful of what others (i.e. a news enterprise) choose that I/WE cannot control or influence, the inability to control or influence also breeds apathy.

WE do need to choose wisely. But worrying about the euphemistic reporting about rape and other sexual offenses isn't necessarily productive... unless, you have a strong voice in the world/community and can make cogent arguments that convince your readers. Or any other human expression (ART) that moves the emotions of members of that community.

I encourage your thoughts and actions along those lines.  

14 minutes ago, Nathan_Jr said:

Everyone, including myself.

Which choices are you suggesting WE (including you) have the right to change?

Lawmaking bodies made specific verbal choices in writing laws.

The journalistic style issues have to do, as I understand it, with news gathering/writing enterprises choosing purposely vague wording, perhaps to sound euphemistic, so they can continue to sell newspapers without offending tender sensibilities. 

When a news enterprise dares use more abrupt terminology and/or rhetoric, it probably runs increasing risk of sounding like a publication with an ax to grind. Not that doing so would necessarily be a bad thing.

What other choices might be involved that I haven't understood thus far?

1 hour ago, Nathan_Jr said:

There are contexts where this stylistic choice moves beyond frustratingly ambiguous to dishonest vulgarity. We need to make better choices. 

Who is the WE to which you refer?

1 hour ago, waysider said:

 

 

Did Victor Wierwille write this song? 

4 hours ago, Charity said:

Sexual assault (section 271 of the Criminal Code)

Is this  the link you got that info from? https://www.laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-46/section-271.html?

If so, this is Canada's criminal code.

In the US, sexual assaults (i.e. rapes, when they are prosecuted), are generally prosecuted by the various states. In Arizona, the criminal code is A.R.S. Title 13. Chapter 14 of Title 13 is Sexual Offenses. There are 29 sections in Chapter 14, covering a wide range of offenses. Section 1406 specifies what constitutes (provides the definition of) sexual assault.

C. For the purposes of this section, "sexual offense" means any of the following:

1. Sexual abuse in violation of section 13-1404.

2. Sexual conduct with a minor in violation of section 13-1405.

3. Sexual assault in violation of section 13-1406. [A. A person commits sexual assault by intentionally or knowingly engaging in sexual intercourse or oral sexual contact with any person without consent of such person.]

4. Sexual assault of a spouse if the offense was committed before the effective date of this amendment to this section.

5.  Molestation of a child in violation of section 13-1410.

6. Continuous sexual abuse of a child in violation of section 13-1417.

7. Sexual misconduct by a behavioral health professional in violation of section 13-1418.

8. Commercial sexual exploitation of a minor in violation of section 13-3552.

9. Sexual exploitation of a minor in violation of section 13-3553.

I am confident the Arizona Legislature omitted the word rape in favor of more specifics about conduct which includes rape rather than to treat the offense euphemismistically. Obviously, "inappropriate behavior (or conduct) IS a euphemism. But this is a matter of journalistic style, not legal terminology. I mention this not to minimize the significance but to be specific about the origin of the annoyance.

7 hours ago, oldiesman said:

Numbers in Scripture (Bullinger)

Indeed. Seemingly ascribing insight to meaning of certain scriptures, based on another certainly private interpretation.

55 minutes ago, Charity said:

Exposing Mike Bickle, however, is bringing more awareness to all of this craziness and hopefully will slow down the growth in the charismatic movement.  Unfortunately, like twi, those involved in IHOPKC have been warned to stay off social media. 

Yeah, hopefully. 

Thanks for these posts, Charity. 

10 hours ago, cman said:

Stage 5 – "Conjunctive" faith (mid-life crisis), acknowledges paradox and transcendence relating reality behind the symbols of inherited systems. The individual resolves conflicts from previous stages by a complex understanding of a multidimensional, interdependent "truth" that cannot be explained by any particular statement.

Wow! That too is very profound. 

On 12/22/2023 at 11:30 AM, sirguessalot said:

Our capacities to touch, hold and handle the fires of shame determine how resistant we are to life’s gauntlets of wisdom. Like a flaming sword that keeps us from returning to our original nature.

There's deep metaphor in those sentences. Indeed, I've come to appreciate the importance of story to humanity. Now I'm reading George Lakoff and Mark Johnson's Metaphors We Live By. In their book, they argue metaphor is not simply or only a verbal mechanism for communicating certain concepts. Rather, metaphor is HOW we think.

Our capacities to touch, hold and handle the fires of shame determine... That's a powerful statement in itself.

I appreciate HOW you think. 

Our capacities to touch, hold and handle the fires of shame... that, even though it's not the entirety of your sentence or your comment, is in itself a very powerful statement. It puts into a context HOW you look at the world. I think your last two sentences (which I quoted above) are quite profound. It shows how you think about shame. Its a metaphorical thought process. It awes me to consider the profundity.

1 hour ago, oldiesman said:

Competent to Counsel (Jay Adams)

First published 53 years ago.

Nouthetic counseling has been criticized as narrowly conceived, with a confrontational focus upon sin and behavior, which fails to deal adequately with emotion, grief, and suffering, and which lacks understanding of complex human motivations.

Yeah, this definitely qualifies under a rubric of not necessarily biblical.

Expanding on the notion of being narrowly conceived, with a confrontational focus on sin... it also fits in the framework of Christianity and other religions setting people against one another.

11 hours ago, WordWolf said:

For those who've never heard of it, "Hunt Close" is a book written about raising hunting dogs.  It espouses a POV that's rejected by modern dog trainers, which is to reward the dog when he does well and punish him thoroughly any time he does poorly.   The result, according to modern trainers, is a dog that does what the trainer wants WHEN THE TRAINER IS WATCHING, but otherwise not. 

vpw recommended this book for training dogs and for raising children.

That vpw didn't really raise children OR train dogs while giving advice on both is a point that was lost early on.

There's a few salient points in WWs comment. It's also likely there are many former wayfers who have horror stories about how they treated their children. 

This may be my life's biggest regret, and certainly my biggest regret about involvement with the fundamentalist cult we've known as The Way International "biblical research, teaching, fellowship and horrendously BAD life example ministry."

It's also most reasonable to surmise Victor (who really wasn't, in the entire scheme of things a victor) had absolutely NO CLUE about anyone except himself. 

Isn't that the definition of sociopath or psychopath?

8 hours ago, cman said:

and stop hitting them, period

Yeah, sometimes the learning is especially emotionally painful. 

53 minutes ago, chockfull said:

Yeah it didn’t move the GAF meter enough to remember .  Thats the one.  
 

VP wanted those kids completely compliant so he could HUNT CLOSE to his home for sexual prey.

 That's fair insight. Even without first hand knowledge of victim experiences/stories, The issue of sexual abuse in any social situation with such disparate power differential as twi (and many other religious groups, political, or economically obvious situations) makes it abundantly obvious it has been pervasive.

Thanks for that comment. 

15 hours ago, Nathan_Jr said:

Thanks.

I had to look up the “Marxist Minstrels” by David A. Noebel. Wow. It is fitting that the paranoid little charlatan would promote this book.

A review found on Amazon…

 

 

“So bad that it's good

Reviewed in the  United States on March 17, 2009

Ah, the halcyon days when the Birch Society, the Christian Anti-Communist Crusdade, and the like had not yet metastisized into the later "Moral majority" form! This is the written equivalent of a combo of "Reefer Madness" and "Plan 9 From Outer Space"! Here, the subject is the well known Communo-Athiest conspiracy to morally subvert American youth through rock and roll. (What energy those commie preverts had! You'd have thought that their energy would have been sapped just trying to get American water supplies fluoridated.) The text is priceless. You'll read commentaries on perversities going back to Woody Guthrie, Pete Seeger and other commies up to more recent moral degenerates like Dylan and the Beatles (the commentaries on the Beatles and their groupies alone justify acquisition). Probably, though, the most valuable part is the appendix that lists (in order of commiedom) the "most communistic" performers. (Yes, "Joannie Phony" is up there, but not #1.) It will serve as an invaluable buying guide for your acquisition of prime, quality, classic folk and rock.”

https://www.amazon.com/Marxist-Minstrels-Handbook-Communist-Subversion/dp/B0006CPX8Q

17 hours ago, WordWolf said:

The name of the book was "HUNT CLOSE."    (We've had threads on that one before.)

https://www.amazon.com/Hunt-Close-Realistic-Close-Working-Conditions/dp/1558212647/

Currently going for ~ $59 on amazon, used

7 minutes ago, chockfull said:

Yes 100 percent of the people with the condescending Holocaust comments were TWI - when I was in.  

The comments fit right in line with all the other condescension regarding “rightly dividing the Word” which TWI couldn’t do with a razor blade a right angle and step by step instructions.

All straight from the head pilferer who rightly plagiarized the word of truth.  

Thank you. That is, indeed, what I was trying to figure out. IOW, Wierwille had OTHER things on his personal agenda to push other than his (private) interpretation of the KJV (or any other translation/transliteration/version) of the bible. In terms of classes, it might be reasonable to infer he taught some of that stuff in the Advanced Class on PFLAP so he could label it all spiritual wickedness without having to show any actual bible citations.

Now, I wonder if any of that stuff is going around in current twi cult circles.

2 hours ago, chockfull said:

With incidents I have heard plenty about smug condescending arses at Holocost diaplays museums etc.  People who can’t STF up from spouting their so called expertise on the topic.

Were those (or any of those) people wayfers or former twi? I appreciate the feedback. Thanks.

1 hour ago, cman said:

yeah, what is it you want?

...remembrances or documents and info or anecdotes?

sure......

Yes.

1 hour ago, chockfull said:

Babylon Mystery Religion

Thirteenth Tribe

Harvard Classics (I have a set)

Dale Carnegie - How To Win Friends and Influence People, The Art of Public Speaking, How to Stop Worrying and Start Living

The Tracker - Tom Brown Jr

Myth of the Six Million

Luther the Reformer

Foxs Book of Martyrs

The Encyclopedia of Occult Sciences - from Adv Class list

some cr@p on raising kids like training dogs.

Many others on the “Corps Reading list”.  I don’t have a copy of that any more wonder if any do.

 

Thanks. I'm curious about the cultural impact of the three highlighted books, if anyone has any info or anecdotes.

Again, I'm NOT inviting political discussion. Just remembrances or documents. Thanks. 

Btw, I have -- in my Kindle library -- a copy of Dale Carnegie's book. Of course, it was included because (I figure) it's still a major salesmanship book. As well as having in my Kindle library a copy of a collection of Harvard Classics. Various versions of these anthologies can be obtained on Amazon for between $.99 and $4.99. I suspect they were included for general studies purposes.