Rocky

2 hours ago, Junior Corps Surviver said:

This post got me thinking about something that's baffled me for decades. I often think about TWi when Chritians are so strongly pro-life. Other than The Way, are there any fundamentalist groups who are openly pro choice?  

This is not a post meant to debate abortion. 

At the risk of veering off into a political debate (but hoping not to do so), I understand TWI/Wierwille to have developed a position that was much more about the morality of ministry leaders justifying adultery and providing an escape clause, as it were, when a pregnancy occurred outside of a normal marriage.

 

3 hours ago, OldSkool said:

No it's not. You're the moderator, and you have a very nasty unchristian bias, and you allowed this post to stay in about the way for some time. There is no other side around here anymore but a push towards writing memoirs and ted talks. That some found redeeming value in those things is awesome. However, others, like myself, returned to Jesus Christ and found a great relationship that the way international and others would love to hide. So it's clear to me that when a moderator leaves an anti-Christian post in the about the way section, then there's a problem and this is no longer an objective website and no longer does it serve its stated purpose. 

 

Jesus Christ and most anything Christian is not welcome here, and therefore I'm unwelcome here. 

But on the other hand, let a Christian post pop up in about the way, and It's immediately moved. 

I received a notification that something I said on this thread was somehow considered controversial.

However, I'm NOT finding anything on this thread I said that could be controversial.

Nevertheless, I am NOT a moderator. I don't "move" or delete" anything.

Also, Go Dbacks! :)

Further, regardless of my beliefs regarding Jesus Christ or God, even if I profess unbelief, I don't get your point. OldSkool. Please clarify

1 hour ago, cman said:

great observation, I agree, but am not familiar with "personal prophesy" = is that a thing?

I would suggest asking JALvis, but he's no longer available for consultation. 

3 hours ago, Nathan_Jr said:

*Hello, Irony.

On 3/23/2024 at 5:22 PM, Charity said:

I'm wondering what your purpose was for your post and sharing the video.

Great question, Charity. I would HOPE. I would also HOPE our new good friend Righteous Rider isn't/wasn't trying to set GSC readers up for a Viral Mimetic Infection. 

I just found THIS 14 year old video on YouTube. Not quite four minutes into this video, Ms Benscoter related how she believes it works. She shared what Viral Mimetic Infection made her vulnerable as a 17 year old to love bombing by Moonies. She became a Moonie.

Can you think of any (viral mimetic infection) VMI-like phrases that Wierwille used in his Pflap class to HOOK us?

1 hour ago, Nathan_Jr said:

Mmmph

Please explain. 

10 hours ago, Charity said:

I wonder how they get away with it.

Peer pressure most likely. Belonging is not unique to cultic or religious organizations.

Although the importance of social relationships, cultural identity, and — especially for indigenous people — place have long been apparent in research across multiple disciplines (e.g., Baumeister & Leary, 1995; Cacioppo, & Hawkley, 2003; Carter et al., 2017; Maslow, 1954; Rouchy, 2002; Vaillant, 2012), the year 2020 — with massive bushfires in Australia and elsewhere destroying ancient lands, the emergence of the COVID-19 pandemic, and the Black Lives Matter movement in the U.S., amongst other events — brought the importance of belonging to the forefront of public attention. Belonging can be defined as a subjective feeling that one is an integral part of their surrounding systems, including family, friends, school, work environments, communities, cultural groups, and physical places (Hagerty et al., 1992). Most people have a deep need to feel a sense of belonging, characterized as a positive but often fluid and ephemeral connection with other people, places, or experiences (Allen, 2020a).

7 hours ago, RighteousRider said:

EVER WONDER WHAT GOD REALLY THINKS OF YOU?

 

Not lately. 

19 hours ago, OldSkool said:

My work on GSC is complete. Thank you for giving me a place to vent and I wouldnt be where I am now if it wasnt for my time here. Some of you  if not all may think im crazy. I was crazy and this isnt the same. I thought I was crazy in the beginning too...its fine.

 

https://www.eyesupandopen.org/index.php/articles-from-various-authors/my-testimony-expanded-version

God bless you OldSkool. I wish you prosperity in your heart and soul and family relationships. I also hope you never fret about whether anyone thinks you're crazy. We all have stories. I can see a long life and many adventurous stories for you in the years to come.   

9 hours ago, chockfull said:

For me it was partially self delusion.  I traded free will and compliance for an emotional sense of security, belonging, and purpose.

That's it in a nutshell. 

3 hours ago, chockfull said:

https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/s/q202RXmiNV

So they are starting out younger and younger targeting the kids.  Here’s the Mormons with a Stake President writing letters to 11 year olds.

The next generation is where the cult interest is.

Ugh!

7 hours ago, modcat5 said:

If you cannot distinguish between these statements, STAY OFF ALL THREADS. 

YIKES! 

I'm wondering if what you and he might be thinking of is AWE.

Dacher Keltner, an academic, recently published (in 2023) a book on AWE.

3 hours ago, Raf said:

Well, What you said did a very poor job of reflecting your overall intelligence.

Seriously, Raf? Can you not, detached from emotional noise, just give him an I statement. As in... I don't grasp what you're getting at. Why would you need to assess his "overall intelligence?" Sheesh.

2 hours ago, RighteousRider said:

I felt like the cabin was filled with the presence of God.

I appreciate the difference of using an I statement. It still doesn't tell me what the author subjectively experienced. 

And, I'm still curious. If you don't know the answer, I'm okay with that.   Still curious, but I know I can only ask for clarification, not demand it. 

Thank you for posting that beautiful visual and auditory feast of awe.

Today's new (to me) book, is AWE: The New Science of Everyday Wonder and How it Can Transform Your Life.

There were times in my young adulthood (50 or so years ago) and during my early life in twi, when I experienced everyday wonder. Of course, at that time, I attributed it all to God, as defined by Victor Wierwille.

Anyway, in this book, I am encouraged to look for, seek out, awe in my everyday life. Beauty in cultural expression is one place to find it.

I was touched with a sense of awe listening to that choir.

No doubt, you and your fellow choir members singing that beautiful piece with a deep sense of love and awe will touch all of those who get to hear you.  

On 2/26/2024 at 8:56 PM, Rocky said:

I figure we'll learn more about SrAirman Bushnell in the days to come. However, high-control group is a significant indicator of cults, according to Steven Hassan. There's no indication thus far that Bushnell's decision was based on anything other than his own personal conviction about the war.

NYTimes has this (apparently a gift article, because I could read it even though I don't subscribe to NYT)

This report doesn't spell out Community of Jesus as a cult, but it seems to examine well, the young Mr Bushnell's mental approach. He rejected a good bit of his cult upbringing. He went to mental health therapy and encouraged a female friend with whom he apparently grew up to do the same.

He had deep empathetic tendencies (which is a good thing). He WILL not immediately be forgotten, as this kind of sacrifice does get cited in news stories after the fact.

My heart aches for him as I envision the ongoing good he could do by choosing to survive.

Various aspects of growing up in a cult are apparent for those with experience to recognize it. Notably for me, that he was apparently neither taught nor had modeled for him by elders ways to cope with difficult ethical and moral dilemmas.

10 minutes ago, chockfull said:

Labeling questions as hatred.

Or as personal attacks.

On 2/27/2024 at 1:21 AM, RighteousRider said:

And as he lay there, the cabin was filled with the presence of God.

A quite vague claim. Before I'd accept this (unverifiable) claim, I'd want more of an explanation/description of what he meant by "the cabin was filled with the presence of God."

3 hours ago, waysider said:

I'm not sure if  he really believed this or was pandering to his fan base. We'll never know for sure.

THIS was a review of Undertow, Charlene's memoir.

From her perspective, she apparently believed he believed it.

4 hours ago, penworks said:

Hello, Greasespotters. Just letting you know that another significant review of Undertow was just published by the International Cultic Studies Association, Inc. 

By permission, I've republished it here:

Book Review of "Undertow," Published by ICSA, Written by Bart Stewart (charleneedge.blogspot.com)

Remember, no author vets reviewers. ICSA put out the word about Undertow and this reviewer chose it. Their review is their response to the book, their opinions, their interpretations. Also, keep in mind this reviewer used other sources about The Way besides Undertow in his review.

Enjoy!

Charlene Edge

Very detailed review. I recommend it wholeheartedly. The following clip saliently describes Mr Stewart's conclusion that "his is a book that anyone interested in evangelicalism, Pentecostalism, or aberrant fundamentalist Christianity should read. Maybe everybody should."

Quote

By 1976 Doctor Wierwille was getting rich—and paranoid. He fretted about a communist takeover of the United States and instituted survivalist prepper procedures throughout The Way. He also became virulently antisemitic and a Holocaust denier.

That paragraph well sums up and crystalizes much of the reason for the abuses of power inherent in many first person records posted on GSC. 

3 hours ago, penworks said:

Hello, Greasespotters. Just letting you know that another significant review of Undertow was just published by the International Cultic Studies Association, Inc. 

By permission, I've republished it here:

Book Review of "Undertow," Published by ICSA, Written by Bart Stewart (charleneedge.blogspot.com)

Remember, no author vets reviewers. ICSA put out the word about Undertow and this reviewer chose it. Their review is their response to the book, their opinions, their interpretations. Also, keep in mind this reviewer used other sources about The Way besides Undertow in his review.

Enjoy!

Charlene Edge

I will read that review shortly. However, at the public library in my new home town, I attended my first meeting of a local writers' group. I was given a couple of minutes to introduce myself. I mentioned my intent to write a memoir, noting my interest in politics and my 12 years in a particular Christian fundamentalist cult. I was quickly asked if I was at liberty to say which cult. 

Of course I am and gladly cited The Way International. Of the dozen or so other attendees, at least three or four indicated awareness of TWI as a cult.

Btw, the young airman who self-immolated on Sunday, WaPo noted, had been involved as a child in a "high-demand" religious sect. I cited WaPo in this comment on the cults s3 thread. In case the link I posted in that comment wasn't a gift article link, this one IS.

51 minutes ago, Raf said:

I appreciate your effort at being patronizing with a condescending tone, but I submit you are not very good at it. Why don't you ask the spirit why it can't actually show you evidence so instead has you making personal attacks? Perhaps it's because you never learned how to study an issue on your own? So all you can do is invoke an imaginary friend whose existence you can't demonstrate in order to try to make me look unbalanced?

52 minutes ago, Raf said:

Why do you lack the maturity to do what everyone else is doing even while disagreeing?

22 minutes ago, Raf said:

Ok, so you got nothing. Thanks for participating. Kindly refrain from psychoanalyzing me in future posts. You are very bad at it.

Reflecting back on these responses, Raf, it seems you could have used emojis to say pretty much the same thing without sounding defensive or resorting to name calling yourself. For example   

N'est pas?

11 hours ago, annio said:

Oh, no doubt about it, there have been all KINDS of power etc abuses in just about EVERY denomination or Christian movement, especially those getting attention recently. Twi definitely did not have a special corner on that! However, the length of time vp was able to abuse young women sexually, keep it all a secret, influence twi culture in big ways, and NEVER be held accountable in any effectual way is notable IMO.

Notable indeed... especially to us, because we were familiar with this particular cult.

I wonder if any academics have compiled credible data about the scope, time, and lack of meaningful accountability. I'd sure be interested in delving into such data.

Btw, according to a WaPo story, the Air Force E-4 (who self-immolated on Sunday) had been a part of a: 

"But how a young man who liked The Lord of the Rings and karaoke became the man ablaze in a camouflage military uniform remains a mystery, even among some of his closest friends.

"Bushnell was raised in a religious compound in Orleans, Mass., on Cape Cod, according to Susan Wilkins, 59, who said she was a member of the group from 1970 to 2005. She said that she knew Bushnell and his family on the compound and that he was still a member when she left. Wilkins said she heard through members of Bushnell’s family that he eventually left the group.

"Wilkins’s account is consistent with those of multiple others who said Bushnell had told them about his childhood in the religious group or who had heard about his affiliation from his family members.

"The group, called the Community of Jesus, has faced allegations of inappropriate behavior, which it has publicly disputed. In a lawsuit against an Ontario school, where many officials were alleged to be members of the U.S.-based religious group, former students called the Community of Jesus a “charismatic sect” and alleged that it “created an environment of control, intimidation and humiliation that fostered and inflicted enduring harms on its students.”

Multiple people who said they were former members of the Community of Jesus described their years after leaving the compound as particularly challenging. They said former members, soon after they depart the group, often long for a sense of belonging.

“A lot of us that got out are very much into social justice, trying to defend those who don’t or can’t defend themselves, because that is what we went through,” said Bonnie Zampino, 54, who said she was a member of the group for three years in the 1980s.

"Wilkins also said it is common for members of the Community of Jesus to join the military, describing the transition as moving from “one high-control group to another high-control group.”"

Emphasis mine. Also, the link to their website was mine, and very easy to find. 

I figure we'll learn more about SrAirman Bushnell in the days to come. However, high-control group is a significant indicator of cults, according to Steven Hassan. There's no indication thus far that Bushnell's decision was based on anything other than his own personal conviction about the war. But it seems obvious he was locked into a cultish mindset. Very sad and tragic, especially for his family. Btw, he apparently was only 25. Meaning Ms. Wilkins would have only known him as a small child.

1 hour ago, cman said:

I can imagine how badly talked about Paul was in his day.

Easy to do so for anyone familiar with human nature and how challenging accepted orthodoxies can cause massive consternation. I suspect that's not substantially different now than it was two millennia ago.