Rocky

I'm happy for you having obtained "great emotions from the music alone." I'm glad you like to dance. My impressions of the mediocrity of the choreography stand, regardless. There was plenty about the production to "spoil it" for me. Your attempt to characterize my impressions in any way are nonsense. The production was billed as being godly and God-centered. Overall, that's not how I see it. IF you wanted to know what "spoiled it for me" perhaps the emotionally intelligent thing would have been to ask. I didn't criticize the score/music at all, btw. My overall impression is the entire enterprise was Loy's narcissistic endeavor to lift himself above Victor Wierwille. Whether he succeeded is irrelevant.

I had no idea back then how mediocre the choreography and dancing actually was. Dance is art. Art is about evoking emotion. This dancing in this clip falls far short of that.

Yes!

Moral Benefits of Wisdom 2 My son, if you accept my words and store up my commands within you, 2 turning your ear to wisdom and applying your heart to understanding— 3 indeed, if you call out for insight and cry aloud for understanding, 4 and if you look for it as for silver and search for it as for hidden treasure, 5 then you will understand the fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of God.

Would it be fair to infer from your post that you intend to not read the book in question? Might you decide someday to read it?

Waysider said, this morning, "For the most part, this discussion has been an exercise in futility. The issue is not "black/white, yes/no, either/or" in essence. The real question is what potion and how much of our decision making is influenced by conditioning as opposed to what portion and how much is governed by conscious decision. Obviously, there are infinite combinations possible. " ---- Not that anyone's contribution to this discussion is wrong, but I offer the following to refocus on the original post. ---- Some time ago, Mike posted about, let's say, limitations on human free will. While I didn't find the case he made to be particularly compelling or coherent, I did start to recognize some of my actions IRL did not and do not match what I thought I intended. In the course of my (somewhat compulsive) reading explorations, I found a book The Loop: How Technology is Creating a World Without Choices and How to Fight Back. Some notes I've made from the book: if we don't familiarize w/mechanisms of our brains we'll be vulnerable to those who prey on us and will run the risk of being blind to the effects thereof. our unconscious (subconscious) minds powerfully shape our lives unconscious tendencies are the control surfaces by which technologies will shape our lives cultural forces work to convince us we make independent choices when we do the opposite even years before scientific consensus on controversial findings, nascent understanding becomes bases for entire industries; hence, surveillance capitalism two researchers (as a team) wrote key papers 1971-1979 and their findings are still challenged, but have become foundation for industries in behavioral guidance unconscious biases manifest (in decisions) under pressure and moments of uncertainty research subjects (people) faced with situations they didn't understand were powerfully influenced to make choices they didn't understand, producing scenarios likely to constrain future thinking 99% of our waking activity is strictly automatic and habitual our brains are shortcut machines, desperate to hand off difficult cognitive tasks many (nearly all) of what we think (believe) to be well-considered choices are, in fact, offhand, instinctive decisions "although research has show inferences from [observing] thin slices of nonverbal behaviors can be surprisingly accurate, there is no good evidence trait inferences from facial appearance are accurate. There are two (decision) systems at work in our brains. System 1 makes snap judgments, without conscious analysis/effort; System 2 involves actual analytical intelligence. These notes are from the first couple of chapters. Intuitively, it seems to me this research and reporting, with overtly stated focus on technology, can be used to take new looks at historical events to recognize patterns involving the pervasive nature of cults worldwide in contemporary times. Notably, twi, the LDS church, and JWs... but also many more. I have long recognized the significance of my younger life exposure to the Catholic Church/religion as having "primed" me for PFLAP and twi.

This seems to be relevant to the concept of shedding waybrain.

If we embrace wabi-sabi, we can more easily grasp the impermanence of our experience in Victor Wierwille's cult.

To people stuck in their own dull Wierwille-ite existence, where "twig fellowships" have had the same format for decades, I would refer you/them to Einstein's insight: That and IMAGINATION.

And from your blog post about your Post-Cult Nonreligious Alternative, this paragraph resonates with me. The liberal arts education I sought counteracted the thought-stopping, cliché-ridden indoctrination and ignorance I’d taken as “truth” all those years in The Way. Education gave me a broad landscape where I could roam and question without fear of being told I was wrong, nonspiritual, or possessed by the Devil. I learned to question and be open to new ideas without being afraid of them. My curiosity woke up. I wrote in journals and I read anything I wanted to.

As to Alan Watts, a wikipedia page about him enlightens. And on the day of his (Tony Bennett's) passing, this from one of the great gifts to humanity highlights for me, perhaps a tangential and clandestine theme of Undertow.

To each question, I would reply, ye shall know them by their fruit.

Nor am I either interested in impressing Professor Avalos or demanding or even recommending anyone choose sides. I don't necessarily view it as an either or proposition. OTOH, as it says somewhere in II Corinthians, only God knows what's in the heart of another human.

It doesn't appear from that comment, Mike, that you got the intended meaning of Waysider's comment on which you replied. Wierwille had an inkling about the significance of the cultural issues of the time (Orientalisms), BUT there had to have been huge gaps btwn what he imagined and the actual cultures. As I understood it and him, the Orientalisms were interpreted as if they all came from one point in time. But what was the actual duration between when the first books to have been adopted into the CANON and the last? There had to have been cultural changes in that time frame. Further, the premise of Avalos' scholarship seems to realize the entire way to view those writings is anachronistic as of now. Not only so, but technology advances since the advent of the printing press (in western civilization, around the year 1440), have been unfathomably HUGE. IOW, the paradigm under which you try to interpret God has shifted well beyond what your (our) imagination(s) singularly and collectively have even begun to grasp. Wierwille may have imagined some of it, but not very much. So, I surmise/infer/conclude that Charlene's Undertow book barely scratches the surface of the spirituality changes we've encountered in the last 50 or so years. Therefore, while your claim about what "prophets of God" may have been trying to get people to come to grips with is still far short of reality. I can't say you're entirely off track, just still far, far short of the goal.

Checking now on Amazon and hardback is now up to $57 (used). But... I did receive your email.

LOL! As if anyone could overcome Victor Wierwille's domineering malignant narcissism.

Creeepy YES!

Goodreads dot com says, about Avalos: Since his arrival at Iowa State, Avalos has become an internationally-recognized critic of Intelligent Design creationism, and he is often linked with Dr. Guillermo Gonzalez, the advocate of Intelligent Design who was denied tenure at Iowa State University in 2007. Avalos co-authored a statement against Intelligent Design in 2005, which was eventually signed by over 130 faculty members at Iowa State University. That faculty statement became a model for other statements at the University of Northern Iowa and at the University of Iowa. Gonzalez and Avalos are both featured in the movie Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed (2008). Which movie is available (for no charge) on YouTube. It's an hour and 39 minutes. But it is political on its face.

Avalos' book sounds VERY intriguing. Unfortunately, I cannot find this title in either of the public libraries I regularly borrow from and Amazon sells it for (hardcover) $29 and (kindle) $31. Do you know where I might find it for less?

I personally would argue similar but somewhat differently, that the Bible is reasonable to consider in the context of cultural anthropology. Anthropology is the study of the human as at once an individual, a product of society, and a maker of history and culture. It’s the nature of the human condition to live within structures of symbol, belief, and power of our own fashioning: religion, art, gender, war, ecosystems, race relations, embodiment, kinship, science, colonialism, language, nations and states, play, subsistence strategies, mass media, illness, pain, and pleasure. In a word, culture.

Ewww! Talk about brainwashing!

OTOH, your reflection on your impressions, experience, and your friend's impressions say a lot. Thanks for saying it.

Criminy! The "general story" is specific nonsense. I'd ask why you don't simply realize a person (twig leader) doesn't really provide "spiritual protection" for "his people." S/he may pray for his/her friends but excellence arising from intention might rather highlight GOD protecting people. No? Yes? Stories didn't overemphasize anything, IMO. Victor's private interpretation skewed both the writers/performers and the audience understanding. In terms of story, which can effectively teach or impress or illuminate in an observer's mind and understanding, there was no overemphasis. There was only distorted understanding of the function of storytelling. Sorry if I sounded too condescending.