Rocky

This seems to be relevant to the concept of shedding waybrain.

If we embrace wabi-sabi, we can more easily grasp the impermanence of our experience in Victor Wierwille's cult.

To people stuck in their own dull Wierwille-ite existence, where "twig fellowships" have had the same format for decades, I would refer you/them to Einstein's insight: That and IMAGINATION.

And from your blog post about your Post-Cult Nonreligious Alternative, this paragraph resonates with me. The liberal arts education I sought counteracted the thought-stopping, cliché-ridden indoctrination and ignorance I’d taken as “truth” all those years in The Way. Education gave me a broad landscape where I could roam and question without fear of being told I was wrong, nonspiritual, or possessed by the Devil. I learned to question and be open to new ideas without being afraid of them. My curiosity woke up. I wrote in journals and I read anything I wanted to.

As to Alan Watts, a wikipedia page about him enlightens. And on the day of his (Tony Bennett's) passing, this from one of the great gifts to humanity highlights for me, perhaps a tangential and clandestine theme of Undertow.

To each question, I would reply, ye shall know them by their fruit.

Nor am I either interested in impressing Professor Avalos or demanding or even recommending anyone choose sides. I don't necessarily view it as an either or proposition. OTOH, as it says somewhere in II Corinthians, only God knows what's in the heart of another human.

It doesn't appear from that comment, Mike, that you got the intended meaning of Waysider's comment on which you replied. Wierwille had an inkling about the significance of the cultural issues of the time (Orientalisms), BUT there had to have been huge gaps btwn what he imagined and the actual cultures. As I understood it and him, the Orientalisms were interpreted as if they all came from one point in time. But what was the actual duration between when the first books to have been adopted into the CANON and the last? There had to have been cultural changes in that time frame. Further, the premise of Avalos' scholarship seems to realize the entire way to view those writings is anachronistic as of now. Not only so, but technology advances since the advent of the printing press (in western civilization, around the year 1440), have been unfathomably HUGE. IOW, the paradigm under which you try to interpret God has shifted well beyond what your (our) imagination(s) singularly and collectively have even begun to grasp. Wierwille may have imagined some of it, but not very much. So, I surmise/infer/conclude that Charlene's Undertow book barely scratches the surface of the spirituality changes we've encountered in the last 50 or so years. Therefore, while your claim about what "prophets of God" may have been trying to get people to come to grips with is still far short of reality. I can't say you're entirely off track, just still far, far short of the goal.

Checking now on Amazon and hardback is now up to $57 (used). But... I did receive your email.

LOL! As if anyone could overcome Victor Wierwille's domineering malignant narcissism.

Creeepy YES!

Goodreads dot com says, about Avalos: Since his arrival at Iowa State, Avalos has become an internationally-recognized critic of Intelligent Design creationism, and he is often linked with Dr. Guillermo Gonzalez, the advocate of Intelligent Design who was denied tenure at Iowa State University in 2007. Avalos co-authored a statement against Intelligent Design in 2005, which was eventually signed by over 130 faculty members at Iowa State University. That faculty statement became a model for other statements at the University of Northern Iowa and at the University of Iowa. Gonzalez and Avalos are both featured in the movie Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed (2008). Which movie is available (for no charge) on YouTube. It's an hour and 39 minutes. But it is political on its face.

Avalos' book sounds VERY intriguing. Unfortunately, I cannot find this title in either of the public libraries I regularly borrow from and Amazon sells it for (hardcover) $29 and (kindle) $31. Do you know where I might find it for less?

I personally would argue similar but somewhat differently, that the Bible is reasonable to consider in the context of cultural anthropology. Anthropology is the study of the human as at once an individual, a product of society, and a maker of history and culture. It’s the nature of the human condition to live within structures of symbol, belief, and power of our own fashioning: religion, art, gender, war, ecosystems, race relations, embodiment, kinship, science, colonialism, language, nations and states, play, subsistence strategies, mass media, illness, pain, and pleasure. In a word, culture.

Ewww! Talk about brainwashing!

OTOH, your reflection on your impressions, experience, and your friend's impressions say a lot. Thanks for saying it.

Criminy! The "general story" is specific nonsense. I'd ask why you don't simply realize a person (twig leader) doesn't really provide "spiritual protection" for "his people." S/he may pray for his/her friends but excellence arising from intention might rather highlight GOD protecting people. No? Yes? Stories didn't overemphasize anything, IMO. Victor's private interpretation skewed both the writers/performers and the audience understanding. In terms of story, which can effectively teach or impress or illuminate in an observer's mind and understanding, there was no overemphasis. There was only distorted understanding of the function of storytelling. Sorry if I sounded too condescending.

How would you describe someone who lies to you? Who riles you up? Who makes you anxious and afraid? Who questions whether you’re good enough? Who has preposterous blindspots and disturbing biases? Who prods you to suspect the worst of others? Who tricks you into doing things you’ll regret? Who encourages your worst impulses? But this is what our mind does to us on a daily basis! #### How much thought have you given to the scripture in Ephesians 4 admonishing you (us) to not be tossed about with every wind of doctrine? Why and how would that be an issue of concern? How easily do you get distracted from what you intend to do or pay attention to?

That's not EVEN what this thread was intended to do. Discussion, not argumentation.

Good morning to you too, kind sir. This is just one of the influences.

Hmmmm.... oh, really?

Whether this will successfully inoculate anyone against getting conned, including into joining a cult, is yet to be seen. Given the marketing material surrounding this very recently published book, the authors seem to think it might. You MIGHT be able to find this book in your local public library... or to ask them to purchase it. Also, I listened to a podcast about the subject this morning. The podcast mentions the gorilla experiment. Said experiment illustrates the power of misdirection (of attention). The misdirection concept relates directly to the instruction during PFLAP classes to hold all questions until the end. https://behavioralgrooves.podbean.com/e/why-we-fall-for-fraud/

Truth!