Grace Valerie Claire
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Posts posted by Grace Valerie Claire
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On 10/23/2017 at 11:51 AM, skyrider said:
Some background that preceded this letter.........page 234
"Since the November 16, 1958 meeting, believers had again worked on plans for starting The Way Biblical Seminary. One proposed location for the seminary was the Wierwille farm. The solicitation of funds to begin work on the seminary found resistance at the meeting of the Miami Valley Group. The Way branch in Troy, Ohio, said that they wanted the farm of The Way in New Knoxville to be kept separate from the spiritual arm of the ministry. They wanted to be sure that their money was going to help spread the work of the ministry and not to help pay off the mortgage at the farm or for the business of the farm. They wanted a seminary to be started but at a location other than the Wierwille farm."
"In responding to this concern, H. E. Wierwille gave a detailed report on how the farm had been given to The Way by his brother Victor and himself. None of the money from any graduates of the Power for Abundant Living classes had been used thus far in work done at the farm or for business related to the farm."
In reading thru mrs. w's accounting of this time period.......it is clear that Troy, Piqua, Dayton and Columbus areas were growing hubs of outreach. Wierwille taught an "advanced class" in Troy, OH from June 30 - July 11, 1958.
Still "headquartered" on Washington Street in Van Wert at this time, plans were formulating towards establishing "a new headquarters" at the Wierwille Homestead now that Old Man Wierwille died and the farm was inherited by Vic, Harry and Reuben. Dissention was growing.....and trust to keep money separate from the business side of the farm was evaporating.
The First Exodus of TWI.............was the Troy/Piqua believers.
Sky, wow!! I didn't know this. Thanks for the information.
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On 5/6/2020 at 1:10 PM, waysider said:
I didn't know rattlesnakes could live that long.
Way, I didn't know that could live that long, or do as much damage as RR has done.
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On 5/9/2020 at 7:49 AM, skyrider said:
After three years..........what has the R&R group done?
In May 2017, they had that Q&A Facebook Session..........only to "circle the wagons" in their own defense.
Touting their "Revival and Restoration" mantle.......what have they "revived?" What have they "restored?" Does their little weekly echo chamber have any relevance to anyone besides themselves? Anyone listening outside their little circle jerk? Seems like few care. Very few comments.
When will they stop the merry-go-round and look around? Why have corps and clergy been exiting (escaping) from twi since 1976? Why did all of wierwille's corps letters lament, over and over, that corps were exiting twi and moving on in life? Were all of these corps and clergy "cop-outs?" Were they possessed with devil spirits like wierwille said? Surely, one can think deeper that spewing back the wierwille sound bytes of yesteryear, no?
Instead of teaching the same old "doctrine" for the thousandth time......why not try a different approach. Stop and think about it for a week.....at least. There are reasons why wierwille's organization died quickly on the vine......because it was not connected to the vine [John 15:5]. The Lord Jesus Christ. He is the vine.
But hey.......go ahead with your little weekly (weakly) sermons of relevance. Hopefully, you don't lose another decade in the process.
Or........pull your
head......er, hand out of that coconut and get busy LIVING !!!.
Sky, do they really want to? It seems to me, if they wanted to pull their heads out of the sand, they would have done so years ago.
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On 5/10/2020 at 12:48 PM, T-Bone said:
…Skyrider, your comments about subjugation and corps grads needing to have a splinter group leader over their decisions got me thinking about the attachment theory…
Subjugate is the old divide-and-conquer strategy…The interview article below describes the “trifecta of terror, love, and brainwashing as key to cult behavior”:
“People come into cults through a variety of pathways and bring with them a variety of personality types. In addition, many are born into cults. But the one thing that seems to be supported by research is that new followers are more easily recruited when they are at a normal life “blip,” as Margaret Singer put it—if one is between affiliations, such as moving house, going to university, getting married or divorced or breaking up a relationship, experiencing bereavement. A person embarking on such changes may be looking for a new relationship, hobby, religious affiliation, or even a new gym (yes, there are many fitness-based cults). And all such changes can expose a person to a recruitment attempt.
But in my view, the main vulnerability factor is ignorance. A person lacking knowledge of how cults target and recruit people and the mechanisms they use to entrap people may not be able to identify a coercion attempt when targeted."
You identify a trifecta of terror, love, and brainwashing as key to cult behavior. Can you explain the intersection of the three?
“The same dynamic that occurs in domestic violence also applies to cults. First a person is lured to group or person who seemingly shares their interests and concerns. They may then be subject to a kind of love-bombing, given extreme amounts of attention, which can feel flattering and seem the sign of having found a safe place. Then begins an attempt to isolate the person from friends and family. The potential recruit becomes engulfed in a new system and out of touch with their old, known network.
That paves the way for the group to engage in “terror” tactics, arousing a sense of threat, whether it’s fear of the apocalypse, fear of being criticized, fear of the outside world, or some other group-specific fear. I believe attachment theory provides a good theoretical approach for understanding brainwashing, and it holds that people run to a safe haven when they are afraid. If the group has been successful, the recruit, now having had fear instilled by the group, runs to the only safe haven available—the group itself."
What are the consequences?
"There are two effects of running to the group. First, it creates a disorganized attachment bond, what Judith Herman described as a trauma bond in her book, Trauma and Recovery. It is strong bond that is difficult to break so long as the person remains isolated from alternate safe havens. Emotional and cognitive isolation are key, not necessarily physical isolation. Cults isolate followers by controlling their personal relationships and by restricting information sources to the cult.
Second, the disorganized attachment, characterized by running to the source of fear, causes dissociation. Running to the source of fear obviously doesn’t provide escape from the threat. Because it is a maladaptive way of coping with threat, the person goes into a “freeze” mode and is unable to think clearly about what is happening. This explains why perfectly intelligent people can find themselves unable to rationally view a cult they are involved with. It is literally too frightening and disorganizing to do so. The lack of alternate information and true havens undermine a follower’s cognitive processes on matters regarding the group. The cult can now do the thinking for them—the essence of brainwashing.”
T-Bone, excellent post. Thanks for the information.
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On 6/11/2020 at 2:56 PM, T-Bone said:
At Rome City we had pizza with chicken gizzards
T-Bone, I took the AC in Rome City back in 1985. I remember the food being quite good. I certainly had no complaints about it.
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On 6/19/2020 at 3:20 AM, Twinky said:
Possibly rejoice at being out of the place!!!
Twinky, you make me laugh!! I know I "rejoice ", everyday because I left TWI years ago.
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On 1/27/2018 at 10:45 AM, skyrider said:
An Insidious Plan..........(proceeding in a gradual, subtle way; intending to entrap and harm)
- Where spiritual abuse intersects with multi-level marketing scams
- People are disposable......keep payroll and any "retirement pensions" at minimum levels
- Whitewash the history......and laud programs and classes with International wayspeak
- Love-bomb the newbies with all the "benefits" to their biblical research
- Keep polishing the bannisters and manicuring the grass.....newbies won't see deception
- Entrap them in dependency to commit/give to the cult (gain access to their wallets)
- Generic website and way magazines......all information and contact lists centrally controlled
The wheels of justice turn slowly, but grind exceedingly fine.
Sky, I first got involved with TWI over 40 years ago. All the points you mentioned, happened to thousands of us, decades ago. Same Bulls--t, just a different day. I feel for those people who will work for TWI, at minimum pay. I officially retired in January, of 2020. Those monthly SS Checks, combined with my VA Stipend, are wonderful. For the first time in my life, I am financially stable. I fear those people who depend on TWI for a living, will have a hard time after they retire.
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On 7/14/2020 at 4:00 PM, Beguiled said:
My post in this thread is the first time I've ever let the universe know about what happened. I was in FC 18 if anyone was there or knows anyone from that time. I know the exact person who did it and her entire family is still strongly in TWI as far as I know.
"Saying" those words in an internet forum to complete strangers made me reach out to my brother who is younger than me and I told him about it. All he said was he knew I've been dealt bad cards my whole life and didn't even want to talk about it. I am 6 months shy of 40 and haven't cried this much in decades, or ever. Clearly a valve opened up, but the lack of understanding from my family has been devastating. I can't even talk to my parents because they are still "going strong" in TWI.
Looking back it is clear that it is this one incident that fractured my entire family by making me pull inside myself. In turn I started acting out against my parents and started bullying my brother. I almost feel worse for my brother now, he has no love in his heart because of my reaction to being raped and how I treated him afterward. He literally told me he doesn't understand why people need family and love and support. I died inside. He is more scarred than I. I am the typical older sibling who has jumped from career to career and he is extremely rich/wealthy now through a very hard work ethic because of my bullying. Ironically he is the exact type of person I despise and believe are ruining the world and I had no idea.
I've confronted my parents about other things regarding TWI throughout the years and my mother just defends everything in typical fashion by turning a blind eye or citing the same bs we all know and have heard a million times.
And for the record, my incident occurred while my parents were on LEAD as well. I remember because I balled my eyes out as I was scared for my parents being alone and hitchhiking for a week. Even at a young age I knew you could get the same experiences doing something much safer. But wtf do I know?
I quit a teaching job at a university right before covid hit as they were about to give me tenure so I could be the stay at home parent for my first born. (Don't feel bad for me it was a good decision.) I decided to have a child finally because I realized how miserable I have been chasing money and having no love in my life. It was and is scary but I am so grateful I had the self awareness to go against the grain of what society thinks I should do. It has taken me 3 decades to be able to love another human being, and I am grateful that I'm late to the party instead of missing it entirely. TWI definitely engrained into me that what people think of you matters and you better fit in or else you aren't welcome. (Eventually I was marked and avoided!)
Now at almost 40, everyday I have to wake up and fight what society expects and instead do what is good for me. I've never done anything good for myself and I don't even know if I know how. But I'm trying. I'm trying real hard to keep it together.
(I have so much anger that my parents always pick TWI over me even as I write this. Any help on letting that go would be greatly appreciated.)
Beguiled, thank you for your post. I am sure, it wasn't easy to write. I am old enough to be your mother. I had a very unhappy childhood, and blamed my mother for a lot of the terrible S--t, that happened to me. Much of this S--t happened over 50 years ago. I have had many therapists over the years; some were good, some weren't. However, the therapist I have now is by far, the best one I have ever had. I have had him for over a year, and the VA is paying him for another year of therapy for me. Also, I have a wonderful Doctor who monitors my meds for me. In my experience, therapy and medication has been a huge help in overcoming the anger I had at my mother, and other family members. I wish you well on your journey to health, and happiness.
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On 4/17/2020 at 6:45 PM, Rocky said:
Practical experience with direct supervision?
If that doesn't shout CULT, nothing does. Also, it's very creepy.
Aka the blind leading the blind.
Rocky, I remember that picture very well. I went WOW, in 1978 in Illinois. What a horrible year! We were under a lot of pressure to run classes. I remember having very little money, and not having enough to eat. I think we helped to run three, or four classes during the year. I stayed for the entire year, but it was very difficult for me to do so. Toward the end of the year, I told my Branch Leader, I was going back home to attend college. Boy, was he upset with me!! When, my year ended, I went back, and attended college. I have never felt the need to go back to Illinois. In some ways my WOW was successful, because I stayed the entire year, and did sign up people for the class. However, I look back on it, and know I would never do it again. In so many ways, I feel like I wasted a year of my life going out WOW.
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On 4/16/2020 at 2:02 AM, socks said:
Thanks! That mirrors what I"ve heard before, the night Craig and Reynolds covered it. There's a bit of speed bump in the narrative but it may be that he moved from the old to the new so quickly - after gestating all the disruption and dissension in the Way Corps for so many years there. So he must have decided to move quickly and decisively, cut losses and keep it going. Thanks, I appreciate that.
"Word over the World" was something that was very clear to me, so we probably differ in how we're processing it all. From the earliest fellowships I went to in California in 1968, to the time I first met Donnie Fugit in California when he came out to visit with a few people from Kansas,, to going cross country in 1971 and visiting several locations where there were fellowships, to what I did with fellowship myself in California in Oakland, to "going WOW" in the 1972"B" wave, to then going into the Corps....my previous conversations with Dr. Weirwille were about the Word of God and the message of salvation and what we were doing to extend that kind of work using music, in California. Within those first couple years I had become certain beyond any doubt that the things I was seeing and being a part of were real, unadulterated miraculous grace in action. So I was convinced, and as PFAL became a part of that it broadened out considerably.
Going into the 4th Corps was something he and I talked about - my wife and I had applied to the 3rd Corps but it was a tight fit and he suggested that several others musicians were coming into the 4th Corps and that would be where he was hoping something could get going. There was a lot involved in these decisions for my wife and I - and I was very young - but at the center of it all was reaching others with the message of the new birth in Christ and the teaching of the "more than abundant life", manifesting God's spirit and "walking on the Word" as taught in PFAL. This had taken off in California and was doing so across the country. One of the things we - some of us anyway - in that early effort of Way Productions cared deeply about was reaching others through the ministry of "music" and one on one preaching and pastoring. My original experience and relative success with music was by working in the public market, not the gospel or religious market. So I had a fairly young but clear idea of what music was and it's role in WOW, and the idea of reaching every person through the local neighborhood fellowship effort - ie "fellowship" and each one reaching another one - was understood to be doable. That's why I was willing to travel across the country and slowly but surely try to be part of doing that.
We used to have a joke that one of us in JN came up with when we talked about "WOW" - we pictured what it would be like if "it" ever happened, that there'd be some great party, beer and Drambuie would flow and VPW would have a "We did it!" t-shirt on and it would be at some ROA 2000 or something - I'm sure I didn't think it would take any longer than 25 years or so....and it was just a joke, but I did have a somewhat youthful vision that while it might not happen the way I thought it would - I wanted to aim big and miss small and I was going for it, as unrealistic as might seem.
I have an elderly family relative who knows a very little about what we did and he likes to smile and tell people that my wife and I - "got married and went together....to save the world, they were going to change the world!".....I told him once that I didn't come close - and he grabbed my wrist and shook it and told me NO! You changed yourself and you tried to help others, I know that and you did that for sure..." Every once in s awhile I run across someone from 30 - 40 years ago who tells me how they're lives have gone and I'm thrilled to have been a part of it, big or small.
I have to admit that I could never make that journey from where I started to the follow along with where Craig took it - not that I'm smarter or better .... well, smarter maybe sure, maybe - but that may be because I'd always had a personal vision and process I was involved in trying to do and to live. Not always successfully, by any means, but working at. So perhaps it was different for others, they'd have to speak to that themselves.
Socks, I remember JN; they were wonderful!! Their music was so inspiring, and Godly. I heard them several times, and always thought their music was amazing. I have wonderful memories of them. Many of the head honchos in TWI, were guilty of any number of wrongdoings, but JN was the "real deal."
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On 9/28/2020 at 11:09 AM, skyrider said:
Recently, The Way International made a two-fold grand announcement:
- This new announcement waives the debt-free requirement for students desiring to enroll in the upcoming Advanced Classes in 2021.
- Next year, there will be two advanced classes run. The first one is for advanced class grads at Camp Gunnison (May 1-9, 2021) and the second advanced class is for new students at hq (June 13-26, 2021).
Lots of attention has being drawn to the waiving of their strict debt-free requirement, a policy that was implemented in 1994.......
But......the advanced class grads-only "camp" in May is the Loyalty Test and Purge that cometh.
Make no mistake about its importance. This is a "circle the wagons" maneuver....a planned, strategic, tactical, and controlled move. This is the SAME PLOY implemented in 1992 after "the fog years." Let's number the ways why twi would do this....
- Twi does NOT have clergy "camps"........or corps "camps." Why? Already fleeced of their labor, get-togethers have little upside.
- The whole concept of a "clergy household" is grade-A bunk. In my 14 years as clergy......we only had a few meetings, nothing more.
- Corps grads will be pressured to attend this advanced class (all-grads class). Committed corps show up.
- The committed get to attend first.....adv class grads and corps. Plus, "sit at the feet of the teachers"...who would miss THAT?
- Advanced Class students, and therefore grads......are a prime target for twi. Faithful tithing and future corps applicants.
- For the same reason, twi has Advanced Class Specials......exploitation at its maximum. Money. Power. Influence. Control.
- Peer pressure goes both ways.....up and down the cult paradigm. You will be pressured to attend. Count on it.
- Just like in Scientology......there is a subliminal control factor in promoting people to scale levels of "achievement." #8 -- Going Clear.
- The advanced class completes the series. It is marketed as attainment of "spiritual maturity".....until you find out later it isn't.
The Way International is borrowing the same play from their 1992 playbook: Run an advanced class for grads-only at a twi-property location. Home Field Advantage. They control all the factors. Notice......it is an intense, condensed version of the advanced class. Nine days......long days......structured to the hilt. Very little time for hanging out in the scenic beauty of Colorado. No time to hike, explore or have a couple of afternoons hanging with "friends." Could it be that this intensely, structured time keeps questions and dissent to a minimum? Absolutely!!
Do you have to attend to keep your advanced class grad status?
If so........then this will purge from the ranks those who do NOT attend.
WARNING: Cults operate via a series of purges ...........and this is another one coming. For those who are happy residing in an institutionalized environment, then this thread is not for you. But to those who do not like being played......or jumping thru hoops to stand before your leadership year after year......stop and give this some thought. Do you a.c. grads really NEED or WANT to sit thru another advanced class again?
SSDD
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Sky, do you know how much money these classes cost? I paid 500.00 dollars back in 1985 for the AC I took in Rome City. After, the class ended, I wanted my money back. Too little Word; too much BS.
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On 8/19/2020 at 8:32 PM, skyrider said:
Let me state emphatically........that I am sure how I viewed "Word in Culture" [back then] was very different than how wierwille viewed his "Word in Culture." To me, tt was the well-springing of truth, faith, hope and lovingkindness expressed in music, arts, crafts and writing. Fiction, nonfiction and short stories. The Garden of Living Waters near the wierwille home was in the early stages of being constructed. The Sno-Way.....the building of an all-terrain vehicle was underway in one of the buildings. The energy and creative [dare I say that word...lol] talent was amazing to behold. But then........the very fact that this Word in Culture tent and Hospitality tent [dinner theatre tent] were shut down at the next Rock of Ages spoke volumes.
I seriously doubt that few people in twi have any idea the extent to which this excited the corps and staff at hq. The fact that this episode is so rarely discussed on GSC shows how this, too, has disappeared down the memory hole.
Twi could NOT CONTROL this exponential expansion of youthful energy.......but rather, herding people around at large events that they could do. Having one's butt firmly planted in a seat for another teaching was their specialty. Meetings, meetings and more meetings. Advanced Class '79. Living Victoriously [1982]. Sound Out '84. Big meetings where wierwille commanded the spotlight.......to indoctrinate the followers. Easy-peasy.
For decades to follow...............butts in seats was the control method of choice.
It didn't have to end in a death spiral.......................splat.
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Sky, I remember the Rocks of 1978, and 1979. You are so right; a lot of people sang, and they were very good. ROA 1979 was my "Homecoming. " Those of us who had successfully completed our year, were welcomed "home". (Back to the ROA). Those Rocks were fun; people sang, and met up with people they hadn't seen in some time. The music from the "Big Top" at night was so good!! Remember the slogan, "fun, food, and Fellowship?" Those early rocks were so good, I couldn't wait to go to them. I went to seven of them in ten years, and enjoyed most of them. My last ROA was 1987, and it wasn't very enjoyable. It seemed to me, most of the fun, and joy had disappeared. I couldn't leave fast enough, and I knew I would never go back, and I didn't. Those early Rocks were full of good times, and good people.
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2 hours ago, T-Bone said:
I don't know if this will clear things up but this Skyrider quote below is from the Vern Edwards the decision is yours thread :
T-Bone, thanks for the information.
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On 8/2/2020 at 8:46 PM, bliss said:
So let me get this straight.... my mother in law (who is still IN) gave her life the The Way as Corps. When her husband left because he was going to rat out Craig- she gets kicked off staff - without a retirement. But Donna stays for 20 years and is now CEO? How is this not seen as blatant disgusting double standard behavior? Oh I know... it’s par for the Way course! Ugh!!
Bliss, I think I might be going off-track, with this question, but you mentioned Donna M. If RR has left, or been outed, did she take Donna with her? I think Donna is long past retirement age,IIRC. I know RR, is 80(?), but but I would like to know what has happened to Donna. Perhaps someone knows, and can post an answer.
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On 4/21/2019 at 9:24 PM, Pamdalarryum said:
I was a Military WOW while in the military and stationed in West Germany. I haven’t seen much regarding the Military WOW program on this, or any other TWI-related website. I’ve located a few people from back in those days. I was WOW in 1978-1979. I’d love to find more of us. Let’s share our stories of being a soldier/airman/marine/sailor who were also Military WOWs.
Pam, hello. I was a WOW in 1978-1979, in Joliet, Illinois. However, I joined the Navy in 1985. Do you remember Paul N, who was the head of Miltary Outreach? He, and his wife Rita were my first TCs back in VA Beach, in 1978. I have great memories of them!! Their "Twig", was fun! I think they have a ministry in Massachusetts, (?) nowadays.
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47 minutes ago, WordWolf said:
There continues to persist the notion that the GSC is REQUIRED to be a Christian messageboard, rather than a messageboard open to all religious positions (including anti-religious positions and a-religious positions.)
To require that would be a DISSERVICE to twi survivors who no longer consider themselves Christian. Some ex-twi were so scarred by twi, by vpw, by lcm, by JAL, by CG, by rfr, that the flee Christianity completely. I disagree with their decisions, but I have sympathy for anyone who's been hurt like that. Telling them to "just suck it up" does not work, and is rather INhuman. (There's other non-Christians who didn't flee in anger- I think they're also poorly-served by being silenced- and the twi survivor communities are ill-served by silencing them.)
The vast majority of discussions about twi don't require one to believe the Bible. We can discuss what twi says, and what the Bible says, and show they are not connected, without requiring any poster believe the Bible. (Objective truth is the same no matter one's personal beliefs.)
BTW, there's places on the GSC for someone to post something pro-Christian.
Also, as the GSC is about twi and its splinters, and surviving them, it's not a requirement for people to continue posting. Plenty of devout Christians have stopped posting and gotten on with their lives post-twi and post-GSC. I consider all of them to be GSC SUCCESS STORIES. They got what they needed and then went on to live their lives.
WW, yes!! Excellent post! Thanks for the information.
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1 hour ago, Robinette Byden said:
First off, if you're trying to get someone to settle their differences with somebody else, shouldn't you try to get them to confront their demons, face-to-face? The former Way leaders who often get trashed on this forum by people identifying themselves as, "T-Bone", or "Mickey Mouse" probably wouldn't be too inclined to come here on the Internet if all the criticisms are from a one-way street when they have absolutely no clue who you guys are behind your pseudonyms.
Has anybody here ever invited Chris Geer or Craig Martindale to come on Grease Spot Cafe to address some long lingering concerns? If not, why not? Those guys might tell you to go BLEEP yourselves, but I don't believe either of them would shoot anybody for just asking. The absolute worst thing that could happen is they'd probably just say "No" to you -- Is that too horrifying of an experience for you guys to imagine?
Bottom Line is, I don't think you're handling any counseling opportunities in accordance with Christian or Biblical standards. Also, do some of these folks coming to Grease Spot Cafe to vent their Tales of Woe about the Way Ministry, have any legal grounds to sue them in Civil Court? If so, why not just recommend them to a lawyer who'd handle their case for a nominal fee? Or maybe help establish a GoFundMe account for them?
Taunting the Way leaders, or swearing at them on the Internet while hiding behind pseudonyms isn't helping anything, it's just making things worse. If folks are still experiencing nightmares and flashbacks 20+ years after leaving the Way Ministry, they probably ought to seek the help of a Psychiatrist and maybe ask them if they could prescribe some medication for them. Actually, there's no shame in doing something like that if you know you need the help.
Besides that, the Way Ministry certainly isn't the first church group in American history to find leaders sexually exploiting its membership and it probably won't be the last. What about the PTL Club, or Jimmy Swaggart, or Marcus Lamb, or more recently, Jerry Falwell Jr.? Heck, for that matter, what about the Baptist church down the street in your neighborhood? There are stories ALL THE TIME about local Pastors, Priests, Rabbis, etc., sexually exploiting their members -- please don't patronize everybody here by claiming that situation is ONLY unique to the Way Ministry.
Lastly -- speaking about Patronizing everybody here on Grease Spot Cafe -- the Way Ministry, even in its "hey day" back in the late 70's thru early 80's was NEVER as big in membership as y'all are claiming it was/is. The Way was NEVER as big as the Unification Church (Moonies), or Hari Krishnas, or Scientology. Nor did it ever have a membership as big as the Mormons, or the Jehovah Witnesses. If I'm wrong, why didn't incidents like, The Passing of the Patriarch, or Craig Martindale's sexual assault lawsuits ever make the National Press? The folks I mentioned in the previous paragraph all made the National Press for their incidents, so why didn't the Way Ministry follow suit? Also, weren't there a handful of people who authored books about the demise of the Way Ministry? If so, how come none of those publications ever made the New York Times Best Seller List, or even, the Amazon Best Seller List?
So many questions, so few answers.
P.S. In response to Rocky's question: I'm NOT still active in the Way Ministry -- I stopped fellow-shipping with them in '86.
RB, some of us do use our legal names. Others don't, or can't perhaps for legal reasons.
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On 8/11/2019 at 8:54 PM, Duke Baxter said:
Hey, I'll tell ya something, if life was fair, JAL would probably be the biggest televangelist in the country right now. Compare him, if you will to Joel Osteen, who's old enough to be JAL's son. JAL is by far more intelligent, more eloquent, and more knowledgeable of the Bible than Osteen could ever dream of. Osteen basically inherited the position he's got now. I'm just keeping it real. And, oh yeah, it proves that life isn't always fair.
DB, I personally have a problem with many televangelists. I think far to many of them are power hungry, and money mad. JO, for example lives in a multi-million home, and drives a Ferrari. Is he teaching for the good of society, or for his personal gain? I think he is in love with living the high life. Many of his followers can barely make ends meet, yet he throws money away on fancy adult toys. Jerry Falwell recently resigned from Liberty University in Va, and reportedly received a multimillion farewell cushion. I think Olsteen, and others of his ilk, are grifters. Just my opinion.
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1 minute ago, waysider said:
Based on their current online presence, it looks like the answer to both your questions is "yes".
Waysider, thanks!
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On 8/11/2019 at 12:12 AM, Duke Baxter said:
Wow, I guess I must've had a fairly sheltered life back when I was in the Ministry. I never heard anything about John being associated with a "personal prophecy" debacle, or even shilling "Momentus" under-the-table -- what were those two issues all about? And how exactly did he "double-down" on those controversies? Wasn't John fired from the Ministry back when Craig gave all the leadership and Corp members an ultimatum that they either had to follow him or Jesus Christ? Maybe I was wrong about that one too. In this particular video interview, John seems to be marching lock-step with Dr. Weirwille on the 800-lb gorilla issues of the trinity, speaking in tongues, and eternal salvation. Maybe even sounds a little more eloquent than the Doctor ever did, but John obviously seems to be still totting the old company line at least on these three major topics. Say what you will about John, he's certainly determined, committed, resilient, and faithful to his personal beliefs on God and His Word.
DB, perhaps. But, is he right?
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On 3/2/2016 at 10:14 AM, waysider said:
"This forum is to discuss offshoot ministries whose histories can reasonably be tied to The Way International."
Nothing to discuss at the moment, just tossing this out as an example.
Way, I have a question about SOWERS; are they still in Mississippi? Is VP3 still the leader? I have read many of the recent posts, but I have read very little about them.
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On 6/16/2020 at 5:49 PM, Twinky said:
Wow! And Vern is still in place! What happened there?
Is she dead; had a stroke; really, really, retired from TWI - or is she hiding even deeper behind the scenes as some sort of "emeritus" or honorary member of the BOD?Interesting times ahead!
Twinky, I would like to know also what happened to her. I would not wish sickness, of death on her, but I would not be upset if she left TWI.
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On 7/22/2020 at 9:47 AM, Beguiled said:
Hardly. All I see on this forum are ex-TWI giving waaay too much of their mental time and energy to TWI.
Beguiled, it's my time, and energy. I love reading the various posts on the GSC. Some I agree with, some I don't. But, even with those I disagree with, I still find the posts interesting. I personally had no idea of all the drama, that went on in TWI, until I read all the posts here. Back when I was in TWI, everything was Moonlight, and Roses, or so it seemed. However, since I started reading the posts here at the GSC, I have learned that TWI, f--cked over tons of it's people in various ways. For many of us, we spent our youth, money, and energy in various TWI programs. Youth, money, and energy, we could have used in better ways. I had some great times in TWI, but I also had some problems. I think the GSC is a wonderful, and healthy way to discuss TWI, and what it meant to various people.
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On 6/21/2020 at 11:29 PM, T-Bone said:
Being contentious, difficult and especially maligning other Christian groups is exactly what wierwille did to distinguish and separate The Way International from all other Christian groups.
I’ve been in meetings where wierwille would get into his anti-Trinity rant and say stuff along the lines of wrong-seed are promoting the Trinity and to really believe in the Trinity you have to be possessed…As Skyrider said, TWI is a cult - not because of its beliefs, but because of its methods…There was no debating the Trinity – strict obedience to wierwille’s leadership was expected and enforced by sowing the fear of following wrong seed or risking devil-possession.
Thinking about that now, I don’t think it was ever really a concern over “right doctrine” but was just another method of closing the ranks – to keep TWI followers united against other Christian groups…wierwille’s “Why Division?” in The New Dynamic Church book seems like some great rah-rah-let’s-go-team rhetoric – but I tend to think many of us who were caught up in the spiritual elitism of TWI, assumed we were the only “team” that really counted – we were the true Church with more of the rightly-divided-Word than anyone else…teachings on “the household” had a similar agenda – to immerse us more deeply in commitment to the organization but also to further isolate us – set us further apart from other Christians and even other grads of PFAL who didn’t get that involved with TWI…I began to realize how pervasive this “spiritual hierarchy” was shortly after I left TWI when I heard of Chris G’s comment about those who left, saying “now is the fat being trimmed from the body of Christ.”
T-Bone, great post!! However, I think CG should be careful about what he says, or said. I left TWI decades ago, and wish I had left sooner.
BIG way announcement hitting tomorrow.
in About The Way
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Long, where will JYDL go, now that he is out of TWI?