Grace Valerie Claire
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Posts posted by Grace Valerie Claire
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On 6/21/2020 at 5:09 AM, Twinky said:
Interesting. I just found this, recently posted on a FB page set up by some ex-TWI folk. It's Vern Edwards's letter responding to the letter sent by the R&R folk that they sent complaining about the then BoD. I don't know the date of this letter. (I also posted this letter on the R&R thread, but maybe it deserves its own thread.)
Vern Edwards letter
Dear Household Fellowship Coordinators,
As you are probably aware, the Placement Meetings have been taking place this week (thank you for your prayers!). And you may or may not be aware that there has been another group that is actively working in opposition to the Board of Directors and ministry leadership. This group has been led by Bob & Dottie Moynihan, Phil and Sue Shelton, and Ed and Jacque Horney. As of yesterday at the Placement Meetings, these individuals have been dropped from active Way Corps and are considered “mark and avoid”. This decision was made by the mutual agreement of Directors, the Officers, and the President’s Cabinet for the individuals’ divisive actions. Many efforts have been graciously extended to these individuals over the better part of a year, but to no avail.
Romans 16:17: Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
In Philippians there is a verse that is very appropriate to this subject.
Philippians 2:3: Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory….
Gleaning from both Bullinger’s and Thayer’s Lexicons, we find that strife is defined as “canvassing” or “factiousness”. From an English dictionary, canvassing is “to travel around an area asking people for something such as opinions, or votes”. A faction is defined as “a dissenting minority within a larger group.”
This faction is canvassing, persuading disciples to support their cause through fair words and good speeches (Romans 16:8). The individuals above have initiated a Facebook meeting called “Revival and Restoration Livestream Q&A.” Just to make it clear, this is NOT a ministry backed event. It should be very obvious by the very nature of the FB page. It is a mess of confusion, contention, arguing, and division; anything but decent and in order. When one person stands up for the ministry, they are instantly attacked. Today I see that most comments in support of the ministry have been taken down leaving only the comments of those who are agreeing with the Revival and Restoration group. On the FB page, several encourage others to listen to the Livestream event, after all, what harm is there in that? There is plenty of harm. What harm is there in fiery darts? What harm is there in dissenting words? What harm was there in Eve listening to the serpent? Paul confronted those who spoke words designed to divide and discredit, who sowed seeds of discord.
2 Corinthians 12:20: For I fear, lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I would, and that I shall be found unto you such as ye would not: lest there be debates, envyings, wraths, strifes, backbitings, whisperings, swellings, tumults.
Personally, I will not subject myself to any part of this meeting. My efforts will be put to glorifying God, moving His Word, and promoting unity of the spirit. If you have not read chapter 7, of Just the Way it Was, I would strongly encourage you to do so. This stuff is not new, but has historically been whipped up anytime there has been a transfer of leadership in The Way. Dr. Wierwille wrote the following in The New Dynamic Church, chapter 13, “Why Division?”.
“May God deliver us as the Church from being contentious and difficult, from maligning our brethren, from bickering and quarrelsomeness, from dividing the Body of Christ by our lack of enlightenment. There is too much division outside the Church; our solidarity is imperative to give us strength to move forward in spite of the opposition. May the Father in heaven, for the sake of the only begotten Son, bless us with such an abundance that we may cease to be a part of the problem and become part of the answer. May we as members of Christ’s Body become so filled with love that we may be teachable and have our hearts opened to God’s Holy Word. And may we receive of Him and carry the blessings to all we meet, that they may see us and know we are His.”
The greatest thing we can do is to bring spiritual light to the dark world in which we live. Be the Christian in the room. Invite people to fellowship. Teach them what you know.
Acts 26:18: To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
We have a strong ministry with a bright future. If any of you feel you need to talk, please call. My number is 315-638-2382. I am not into arguing or debating, but am keenly focused on spiritual truth and can perhaps shed light on any genuine concerns or questions you may have.
Standing steadfast,
Vern EdwardsTwinky, thanks for the information. I personally don't think I will get involved. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. I have been out of TWI for over 30 years; I plan on keeping it that way.
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On 8/12/2020 at 7:32 PM, T-Bone said:
Yo - sign me up ! Here's my payment for the class.
T-Bone, very funny!! AEN would be proud of you!
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On 8/11/2020 at 5:25 PM, annio said:
Hey, am trying to post this in a relevant recovery thread...
So! Review- What is it that attracts some ppl to the claims of a cult leader especially in uncertain times? And what are some better paths? My thoughts for starters:
1) Do NOT Look for safety in an uncertain world without tools to discern con artist leaders with their abusive practices.
Recommended: GET TOOLS! Look Only to God, or do what grounds You if you need that.
2) Do NOT Latch on to the idealistic idea that ONE human leader or system (theology, culture, political group, denomination, etc) can have THE corner on Truth or Best Practices, etc.
DO- Enjoy exploring, debating, allowing for nuances, differences in experiences, cultural backgrounds, etc. Look to the Bible if so inclined, for a look at how the early church enjoyed diversity yet stayed faithful to Jesus teachings and sound doctrine.
3) Do NOT Buy into the idea that sacrificing to/for these idealistic, black-and-white-Truth-carriers is logical and good. Let yourself get burned out, stay in co-dependence.
DO find your own balance re: giving and healthy self-care, etcc.
Thank you again for providing a good place to process these things!
Annio, I think I was attracted to the TWI, decades ago, because of a need to belong. Back in 1978, I didn't know TWI was a cult. I was a very young girl, and attended "Twigs," because I was loved, and accepted. At the time, I felt my family didn't love, or accept me. My early experiences with TWI, were wonderful!! I loved going to Twig, or Fellowship, because the people there were warm, loving, and kind, and gave me, a lot of positive attention, qualities that I never felt as a child. I lapped it up; I loved the joy, and fun, we had as a Twig. We had Dinners together, and had parties like some families do. Wow! I didn't know what normal families did, because my family was far from normal. To this day, I have warm feelings about those happy days in Virginia Beach, Va. However, I could feel that Twigs were changing in the 1980s. It seemed to me, that TWI had become more legalistic. Gone were the happy days of dinners, and fun-filled Twigs. I thought it was because I was growing up, and became more serious about "moving the word." Now, I know that TWI did become more legalistic; leaders were demanding us to run more classes, and give more money. The ministry was much concerned about money, and less concerned about feeding individual souls. I wish I had been smart enough, and mature enough to follow my instincts, and leave. I thought TWI would get better, if I stayed, and took more classes, and had a better relationship with God. I was a fool; TWI got worse, and worse. Finally in 1988, I left Way World, and never went back. IMHO, some people got involved with TWI, because they wanted to be loved. I know I did. However, after 10 years, I realized TWI, was much more interested in money, than in teaching The Word.
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On 4/16/2020 at 11:49 AM, Waxit said:
I call this brain washing. See if you are trained to think in a certain way and dwell on it long enough- your mind can be guided by a pig
especially if you have got to the stage where you trust him enough to do his bidding.
When Hitler got up the podium to "preach" hatred of the jews to the nation of Germany,
A lot of people didnt take him seriously but day by day he hammered the same old theme of why
the jews were scoundrels and rats that must be exterminated.
As this went on day after day, there came a time when the people of Germany convinced themselves that the jews must be eradicated
from society. Middle classs and honest christians were volunteering to take turns to take a gun with them
and finish off their given assignments - killing a jew
Ordinarily these honest middle class working people would never even dream of doing such a thing
Why did they do it? They were "protecting" the nation from the "merciless" jews who were going to "enslave"
them. Hitler himself was a devout catholic and was considered a family manIn the case of VPW- it was a case of systematic brainwashing- it's over a series of classes
People are committed to it because they have paid for it- VPW says he is charging because
people wont take the class and quit if he doesnt put a price for the class- That's right so he can
properly brain wash them to accept him as a creditable, trustworthy and Godly man with the utmost integrity.
He talks about it a lot so it will be etched in people's mind- Satan's servant must have definitely done his homework
The pfal class is the starting point where he builds such an incredible amount of trust and credibility- a "man of God"
honest, truthful and he talks a lot of the heroics of Paul and Jesus Christ was a man's man- That was true
but VPW was helping himself to credibility by associating himself with others with an undeniable proven track record
VPW was a shameless pig who rode on the reputation and bravery of people like Paul and Jesus Christ and people make the mistake
of ascribing trust and integrity to VPW - wow what a man, we think.Pfal class- Build trust, credibility and integrity-
He talks about it so much that we associate trust, credibility and integrity to VPWIntermediate Class -Demonstration of the "power of God"
We see in action a "mighty man of God" like we have never seen before
Finally someome teaching us to "intrepret" toungues and "prophesy"- He hides behind "forth telling" because everyone is entitled to it
Fore telling- Only true prophets called by God can do it but forth telling- VPW can teach you- it doesnt matter if he is liar- you dont know
about it (world's best kept secret) . Mrs VPW bag is a kid's lunchbox when compared to what's VPW's character likeChristian Family & Sex Class- Priming & Loosening up of Sex Boundaries
I reckon this is the whole aim of VPW in this class. It's priming women for his private sexual rights to any women -especially the young ones who
go through his "brainwashing and trust building classes" . I dont know if he charged for this class but I never got to take it
The ones targetted by VPW as we know are told that they are a very special calibre of women who can handle the task
of relieving "overburned and stressed " "man of God" by satisfying his sexual need
and people succumb to these lies because they have been trained to trust and obey along the lines of a top notch soldier
It remind me of the movie called "true lies"These type of brain washing and extending the boundaries doesnt happen overnight- it's over a period of time
and people dont even realise what's happening to them and how they are extending the boundaries to let the bear in.
TWI distances itself from other cults by saying and it's so common (again gain credibility by associating
with Godly people in the bible by saying - "Oh The pharisees and general public also called the band of
people following Jesus Christ -a cult"
So we are thinking to ourelves, Hmmm! That means TWI must be in the same boat as the disciples of Jesus Christ
This is a trap- where people dont even check TWI because they think that if they check TWI- they are going to get the
same reaction from the church groups or general poulation. Well VPW is a "greeaaat" minister of the Lord- how dare they?
Why should we let other people call us a cult when TWI is such a wonderful organization "teaching" people the word
Not realising that VPW is the most shameless wild pig there is - as someone once said an active resident of sodom and gomorrah
would blush if he saw what goes on at TWIThis is why parents have a duty to love their children and nurture them with the word of God
so there is a protection around their children constantly. Even older people have been conned and this
is why whenever someone gives "religious class". The first thing to do is to check the "teacher"
out and check the "organization out" thoroughly before serious harm is done
if only I had gone to the internet to do a bit of reearch on TWi and I might have found GSC and
it would have saved e years of heartache
VPW used to say people should pray and just trust God and dont worry (meaning dont check)
what the children have gotten to- dont worry God will take care of it
Yeah right (A godly responsible parent will both pray, trust God and check on their children whereabouts and
what they are doing)
Just because someone is teaching the bible doesnt necessarily mean they are good people
I cannot stress this enough- they need to be checked out thoroughly before one takes any type
class especially a religious class.I wonder how many people quit after taking the pfal class or midway through the class and
never turned up. Smart move -I must congratulate them.
It would be interesting to get their feedback.
My advice to those who have been seriouly hurt by VPW is- God loves you very much
he reached out to me when I cried out to Him for truth in an amazing way
Spend time with God in prayer and communing with God and let God heal your heart
GSC is a great place also online for other people who have been similarly hurt to share
how they have overcome the hurt inflicted by TWI in the past and found closureI have been hurt tremendously and it's going away and I can forget it becaues
God has something so beautiful for all of eternity for me- and I tell myself my TWI is a spit in bucket
It's gone forever
Waxit, I was badly hurt as a child. However, I am now seeing a therapist. Perhaps counseling could help you. I know it has helped me tremendously.
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On 7/4/2020 at 5:04 PM, skyrider said:
The Way International has a new president and Chairman of the Board: Vern Edwards.
Unless Rosalie Rivenbark has installed some little "trip-wire" in twi's decision-making process......Vern Edwards, the new president, presides over the decisions and direction of The Way International going forward. At his discretion, he can convene a board meeting with Bill Greene and John Rupp to discuss and implement direction, mandates, guidelines and/or yearly themes that could change their stagnant trajectory. Clearly, it is well-documented from sources and disgruntled, exiting corps members that twi's classes, programs and sunday service attendance are all dismal. Thanks, Rosalie......ppffffttt.
So, it doesn't take rocket-science brains to know that you, Vern, have a decision to make. You are at the crossroads of.......1) Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results [known commonly as insanity] or 2) Have the fortitude to make the hard decisions that challenge the status quo and everything that you've been doing the past 30 years that twi claimed were "doing the Word." No one reaches higher plateaus by following in the steps of losers.
Do you follow "the footprints in the sand" of your lord and savior, Jesus Christ.....the mediator between God and man?
Or, do you follow "the paved blacktop walkway of twi" that Rosalie mandated for 20 years during her reign.......where dull denominations and cults rule with heavy hand and manipulate the followers to their will?
Imagine the possibilities of living a spiritual life......in all of its fullness.
- Walking in newness of life.......not in the spirit of the law, but in the spirit of FREEDOM.
- A life that is pleasing the lord......undoing the burdens of guilt, fear and shame. Healing the broken-hearted.
- Engaging with fellow-disciples in their time of fear and trepidation.......walking on storm-tossed seas.
- Breaking the chains that bind the soul of man. Jesus is the way, the truth and the life.
- Teach the One Body of Christ......wherein, Jesus is the head of that Body!
- Members in particular. Everyone is needed. Everyone is valued.
- Eliminate the top-down caste structure that wierwille implemented.
- Eliminate the two-tier system wherein corps rule over non-corps.
- Pray that the "scales fall from your eyes"........that you might see.
- Humble yourself before the Lord.......to see His Majestic Will.
Stop deceiving yourself, Vern. There is no way that The Way International is on the right path. No way. No how. Many have documented the numbers that some 150 way corps exited The Way Ministry BEFORE that August 16, 2016 confrontation letter. Then, Rico Magnelli demanded Rosalie step down.....and he was given the bums-rush outta there. Months later, a swath of way corps undersigned that March 17, 2017 letter to the Board of Directors......and that went nowhere. Clearly, long-standing way corps laid out their grievances and demands in that letter and now, three years later......you are at the helm.
How many new attendees are coming into the corps program this August/September? Five? Ten? The Way International is hemorrhaging more long-standing corps than it is adding to the ranks. How can that possibly be God's will? If the way corps are "God's crack troops" like wierwille often said.......how can THAT possibly be right? Less way corps is good?
Obviously, there needs to be a true cleansing of the camp. True sanctification. Not just pithy-themed mandate, but a true repentance of heart!!
The decision is yours, Vern. You are at the crossroads. You are the man at the helm. You are in charge of steering this ship. Where it will go and where it ends up is your doing. Hopefully, you make wiser decisions that your predecessor, Rosalie. In her 20-year tenure, you guys marched in circles and never advanced. In fact, it seems clear that by all measures except one, the dollars hoarded away.......Rosalie failed miserably.
Choose wisely, Vern. If you follow the twi-grooming, then you too will fail.
Start with repentance and present yourself humbly before the Lord. And, you'll need to summon His strength and courage if you're ever going to break the chains of the traditions of man .....especially, the chains that wierwille brought to the corps program. Break those chains!!!
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Sky, thanks for the information.
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On 4/13/2020 at 11:42 AM, rubina said:
The Way's response to the coronavirus has been mixed. In the same announcement where Jean-Yves DeLisle said he was stepping down because he had failed he also announced that the 2020 Advanced Class would be canceled do to the coronavirus and later it was posted on the website that other events were cancelled. The last few sunday services have all been a bit interesting, they seemed to have gotten rid of live audiences and the choir. Two weeks ago the teacher drove all the way from Georgia to headquarters. Last week they announced that the Way Disciples had completed their Foundational Classes and had just held special fellowships in their areas and just yesterday the teacher was still telling "believers" to reach out to others with the Word.
If he is stepping down, who will take his place?
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On 1/3/2020 at 10:10 AM, skyrider said:
2020 is here.............. and the choice is yours.
- Do you start restructuring your life, family and livelihood as top priorities rather than submitting to twi/splinter group influence and exploitation? The decision you make will have an incalculable impact for decades, and generations, to come.
- Or........ do you succumb to the "groupthink path" from R&R teachings and get enticed to sign up for their Groupthink Gathering and fall into the same rut as before? C'mon man, it's gonna be fun and relaxing........and cunningly subtle. Spearheaded by Ed Horney.
The writing is on the wall.......... the Horneys are the de facto (soon-to-be) leaders of this "Revival and Restoration" splinter.
Brick-by-brick, the building is underway. It may not look like much, but it is FAR MORE than what wierwille had after two years. In fact, wierwille made the calculation to venture back to B.G. Leonard's Missionary Conference in Canada.......to help bolster Wierwille's 1958 Fledgling Splinter Group. With subtle stealth, wierwille was keeping tabs on some of Leonard's rising "leaders" and keeping his options open from several avenues. Mrs. Wierwille's book is a wealth of intrigue (when you take off those rose-colored glasses).
IMO......the Horneys have their sights set years down the road to be the R&R Splinter Leaders. The Moynihans are content to stand in the wings of the stage and allow the Horneys the spotlight. After all, the window of opportunity for any Moynihan full-spotlight leadership is in the rearview mirror. And, the Forts......well, it takes both husband and wife to be FULLY ON-BOARD to tackle such a challenge.....and Cindy is not. Plus, add to the fact that Cindy's dad, Howard Allen, is sitting over there at twi's headquarters in Ohio. Imagine the contention and strife behind the scenes. Add to the mix, Howard's age and all. And then, grandchildren.....and memories of that relationship.
Interestingly....... John Lynn had twi-clergy and corps in his group for YEARS until it, too, imploded.
And...................... Geer had clergy and corps under his franchise umbrella for YEARS.....but slowly, one by one many/most faded away.
And...................... John Shroyer and CFF offered a softer/gentler approach. But then..... slow downs, pink slips, deaths and more splintering ensued.
2020 is here. And the choice is yours and yours only.
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Sky, how wonderful to hear from you again!! For me, 2020 has been a good year; I have lost a lot of weight, and started collecting SS. But many others have had a horrible year, the pandemic, layoffs, ect. I think the country will start getting better in January of 2021.
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1 hour ago, Robinette Byden said:
I think I can sum up my views of the main arguments here with this thread in two small paragraphs:
1) Whether you consider "the official turning point of the Way Ministry" 35 years ago (Weirwille's passing), or 20 years ago (Martindale's termination), that's just too long of a time to hold a grudge against somebody. That type of bitterness goes along the same plateau as, the Hatfields vs. the McCoys, or Israel vs. the Arabs. You need a heck a lot more than just changing your name to a pseudonym and spewing out vulgarities over the Internet to ever be delivered from that degree of hatred.
2) Identifying "wolves in sheep's clothing" is really a very small part of what Christianity and the Bible are all about. It certainly doesn't supersede Compassion and Forgiveness. If that's supposed to be the whole objective behind GreaseSpotCafe.com , maybe it's high time some of you 'Old Farts' get your heads together and modify that objective a little bit.
Just sayin
RB, I am an "Old Fart." I attended my first "Twig", well over 40 years ago. I had many positive experiences with TWI for 10 years. However, many others didn't. Many of the women, and some of the men, had very unpleasant experiences with it. I have no idea how old you are, but I am 63. Decades, and decades ago, I was sexually abused by some of the men in my family. I have struggled with PTSD my entire life. It's been very difficult to "get over it." But thank God, for therapists. My present therapist is a young man, who is an excellent therapist; probably the best one I have ever had. I have long forgiven the two men, who abused me, but I have never forgotten it. I have read some of the horrible stories that happened to others, here at the GSC. The TWI presented itself as a, Godly Christian organization. However, it has been reported over, and over, that VPW, and others raped various women, and took money, that didn't belong to them. For a "Christian man", to rape one woman, is shameful. To rape, dozens, or perhaps hundreds, is a tragedy. RB, I pray that you never experience sexual assault; it could leave you with life long scars, and mess you up emotionally for years. Just my opinion.
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1 hour ago, T-Bone said:
FYI Con men are persistent and determined. Call me cynical and leery of con artists and repeat offenders who continue to pull the wool over folks’ eyes by appealing to “the Almighty’s 2nd chances”. In reading passages like Matthew 7: 15-20 and II Peter 2 it seems pretty obvious that it is God’s Will that Christians should NOT have a laissez faire attitude when it comes to con artists, false teachers, and supposed “spiritual leaders” who exploit and abuse others. Sure - let God deal with them on Judgment Day as He sees fit in the hereafter – but meanwhile in the here and now it’s our Christian responsibility to protect the flock from ravenous wolves.
TRUE!!
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3 hours ago, rubina said:
The Vice President is generally the position of someone who does administrative work , its generally rotated from person to person, I don't know how much it has to do with personal disputes with the mighty Fox, but a least it seems that she's at least trying to keep the vice presidents in their place.
Recently Privitte was replaced with Lippold as VP and Brian M1ttl3r was ordained and is serving as the archbishop of Georgia. I also think one of the Lombardis was appointed to SecTres.
I seriously don't know what the president does other than be a figen urehead, but the VPs seems to be the mighty Fox's errand boy. It doesn't seem like a fun job, its a lot of
How old is RR? When she dies, who will lead TWI?
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On 2/12/2019 at 2:54 PM, DontWorryBeHappy said:
The Sidney House was dubbed “The Fine Arts and Historical Center”. The first “coordinators” of the place were Pam Craley (5th corpse), and Mark and Ann Carli (6th corpse), who lived on site. It was a beautiful mansion in Sidney with 3 floors, including a full formal ballroom on the third floor. There were kept Dotsie’s diaries all the way back to the Youth Chimes Caravan Hour and the infamous trip to India. There were a substantial amount of old documents of the early daze in TWIt that were housed there. The original incorporation papers of The Way Inc., minutes of the Board of Directors meetings of the early 60s before dictor paul disbanded it. Pictures and accounts of the building of the BRC, pictorial and written essays on the life of K.C. Pillai and George Lamsa, the early PFAL syllabi, intermediate and AC syllabi, “manuscripts” of Are The Dead Alive Now, JCING, RTHST, PFAL, The Dilemma Of Foreign Missions MS, and numerous other “historical” documents involving Dotsie’s and Dictor’s journey to cultism. It was a beautiful mansion built by wealthy local citizen patrons of Sidney. It was among the first properties to be sold off in dem Fawg Years.
DWBH, I think they used to give tours of it. Or am I wrong? For some reason, I think I went on a tour there years, and years ago. But perhaps I am wrong.
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2 hours ago, WordWolf said:
Hypocrisy was pretty much the name-of-the-game for vpw. He could expound for hours on the love of God and even "the love I have for you", then turn around, embezzle the money, and drug and rape the women he just said he loved. The words he spoke were NOT from the heart. vpw taught that in his inner circle, too. lcm documented how he felt offended if he saw vpw even pretend to do any physical work around the grounds. In reality, a little cardio would have done vpw a world of good, especially with all the alcohol and tobacco he was ingesting. His heart needed help. As he was going, it probably would have given out on him if he hadn't already been dead of cancer.
(For those who forget, he smoked A LOT for decades, and drank a lot. Tobacco is known to cause cancer. Alcohol is known to weaken the immune system. vpw claimed that he got the cancer from bright studio lights- which are NOT known to cause cancer, otherwise we'd have stage actors dropping dead of cancer all over the world. The closest thing we have to "bright lights I used for 1 1/2 WEEKS gave my eye cancer" is reports that people using WELDERS and BLOW TORCHES have an increased risk if they're used for several YEARS.)
WW, in other words; VPW didn't want to take responsibility for his poor health care choices. He smoked, and drank for decades, yet blamed something else for his Cancer. What a jerk!!
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4 hours ago, WordWolf said:
BTW,
what makes a "leader" depends on who's defining it.
If one thinks "a leader is not a boss, and a leader cares about the people while a boss just bosses them around", then there are not as many leaders out there since many are bosses. twi provided great training in how to boss people around. It did NOT provide training in how to LEAD because vpw knew how to boss people around, and avoided ALL programs that would have taught him to LEAD, whether in college, or after, or outside of a school setting. vpw had neither background nor training in actual LEADING, so he couldn't pass on what he himself didn't know. When looking at lcm's biographical snapshot of vpw, when lcm thought he was showing what a great LEADER vpw was, he was exposing what a BOSSY BOSS he was. When something was unpleasant, vpw was quick to insist that OTHERS had to do it, and NEVER led by example. "Here, I'll do it and show you how"- something vpw NEVER said about anything difficult or unpleasant. He was quick to yell at others and claim it was to TEACH them or TOUGHEN THEM UP if asked (which was rare enough.)
So, for the amount of people who were trained by twi, the number of actual "LEADERS" is pretty small, and fewer still if you count those who climbed to the top of the twi hierarchy. There were probably lots of good LEADERS in local homes running "fellowships" and maybe branches, but above that, you were climbing the ladder. In twi, that was the result of ambition, which, IMHO, doesn't mix that well with actual leadership ability.
If you count "leader" as "one who vaults to the front, monopolizes the microphone, and tells people what to do," then that's a different story. LOTS of those people were groomed by twi to do exactly that, so there's plenty who decided to continue that after leaving twi. IMHO, that was the rule, not the exception, the higher up the twi ladder people got (of course, there were exceptions.) So, if "confidence and demeanor" are considered critical for "leadership" (i.e. "he looks and sounds like a leader, and that's good enough for me"), then twi produced many "leaders." If they're a nice ingredient but not as important as caring for people and making wise decisions, then they are not.
Getting back to JAL, he's got a proven, PUBLIC track record of making unwise decisions in the context of leadership. On the other hand, he looks confident and has a casual demeanor. Does that make him an AWFUL leader, or a FANTASTIC leader? That's up to whoever is asking.
WW, in other words, one man's trash is another man's treasure.
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1 hour ago, Kathy Niclaus said:
I know, right?!
If you could have been at my house on August 9, 2016, when I shut the front door from FedEx, and opened the box, and then peeled away the package, and first saw a small velvet ring box and thought "what the hell?" and found that opal ring, but then the big velvet box- like Julia Roberts in "Pretty Woman"- opening it up to those pearls- REAL natural pearls- I just could not believe it. Unbelievable. The moral of the story is be nice to those gay ex-boyfriends, because you never, never, never know!!!!!!!! Maybe it's karma paying me back for all the money I wasted by donating ten percent and then some of my income to TWIT as someone here calls it, LOLOLOL! Because I know even though the independent appraisal that came with those pearls was probably on the "padded" side, they are easily alone worth close to what I contributed to TWIT out of my earnings, since most of my income was made after I was out (my ex-husband was the major earner while I was in.) Hmmm, it's been awhile since I've worn them, think I'll get them out for an upcoming outing. Thanks for the reminder!
Kathy
Kathy, I would wear them everyday!! I love Pearls, and don't care who sent them to you. They are fabulous!! I know very little about real jewelry, but even I could see they are real. Enjoy!
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On 6/30/2019 at 8:53 PM, Kathy Niclaus said:
Per the capacity for real care and compassion from non-straight people, and benefitting from it- I have been a tangible recipient.
I am going to give you the skeletal backstory of a WOW year romance, 1978-1979. It was with someone who was bisexual but sexually inexperienced and ambiguous. Becoming involved with the ministry committed him to heterosexuality. He asked me to marry him and I accepted. He went WOW, I went back home at the end of my WOW year. On Christmas Eve, he broke it off by phone. Naturally I was crushed. At the following Rock of Ages we were cordial, I got the truth out of him one night after three beers, and that was the end of it. We maintained semi contact at subsequent Rock of Ages but not in between. The last time I saw him was at the message board in 1983. 6 years later I was married, cooking dinner, I get a phone call out of the blue. It was him. He had made phone calls using directory assistance to family in New Jersey and found me. I think he was rather shocked to learn that I was married. I was already in counseling because after all I had married a sociopath but of course that wasn't anything that was acknowledged by counseling clergy especially not when he was in an income bracket that provided handsome abundant sharing. There was a Thanksgiving card in the mail, and then a Christmas card. The next time I heard from him was a phone call on Christmas Day. He was surprised I had never received a letter he sent. I realized then the sociopath intercepted it from the apartment mailbox cluster. That was 1989. After that all contact was lost. Fast forward to 2015. After sporadic attempts over the years, once I became computer literate, I was finally successful in re-establishing contact with him. He was in a domestic partnership of 22 years with a man. After multiple unfulfilling relationships with other women after me, he turned his attentions to guys. Emotionally he still relates to women, but physically his attraction towards men had grown. I immediately told him I did not judge him on his sexuality. It did not take us long to pick up our friendship where it had left off, and given the years to grow up and mature and have the perspective and understanding of trial and experience, it was actually much better and easier. I unburdened my conscience by apologizing for my many faux pas and rash remarks made in youth. Gratefully he had a much kinder memory of me and my behavior then I had of my behavior at the time. Or perhaps over the years he chose to remember the good things because there were a lot of good times between us, and a lot of times yes, I did try to be the good girlfriend, especially when he went out on the WOW field with care packages, etc. So pretty soon things were kind of like they used to be, with email replacing letters, and me sending the occasional box with something home-baked or something unobtainable where he lives, like fantastic everything bagels. Then there is Christmas and his birthday.
So here are some photos-
Fast forward to my birthday in 2016- FedEx shows up- large Australian opal surrounded by two rows of diamonds set in 14k gold ring comes from him for my birthday. He remembered that way back in 1979, when we were two penniless 19 year olds, that my dream engagement ring was an opal set with diamonds.
That was not the only gift. The other gift is a 22" strand of real multicolor south seas pearls, each 20mm in diameter, with a 18k gold clasp with an inlaid diamond.
For Christmas 2016, my birthstone Peridot and diamond earrings, 14k, and Peridot and I forget the other stone set in 14k ring.
Birthday 2017 I forgot the stone (I have the tags saved) six carat pink oval stone crowned with diamonds in a setting that makes it look like a pineapple and in homeage to my residence in Arizona a vintage pin of a roadrunner with Ruby and diamond. One piece has I8k one has 14k, I forget.
I would say I have definitely benefitted from my friendship with a gay man in my life- my ex husband was never so generous to me, quite the opposite. And the benefit has not just been material things. He has been a wonderful thoughtful friend, as is his partner.
So, ya never know.......
Kathy, beautiful!!
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On 6/29/2019 at 3:07 PM, DontWorryBeHappy said:
One of my ANCC Nursing certifications is in Psychiatric Nursing Pharmacology. This discipline is involved with the study of the active “ingredients”, mechanism of action, common side effects, and therapeutic results expectations available from the proposed medical therapies and interventions. I have have hundreds of clinical hours in the treatment, counseling, and studying of patients whom TWIt would have classified and consigned to the “trash heap” of devil spirit possession. It was a wonderful journey of learning and understanding of not only the mental illnesses human beings have to deal with, but also the utter ridiculousness of Advanced Class Aryan propaganda, antiquated “Christian” superstitions, and the “mechanics” of devil spirit possession and it’s accompanying mandatory dissing of ALL forms of psychiatry and psychology as having been “born in a seance”. A true disservice to those suffering treatable and curable psychiatric disorders.
As a fellow believer in science and the scientific method, along with being a fan of and “dabbler” in quantum physics, I realize that things like “demons”, “possession”, telekinesis, telepathy, etc, are indeed possible theoretically. That allows for the thorough scientific investigation of what TWIt referred to as all things “spiritual” with an open and curious mind based on the objectitivity of the scientific method. An example of this is the investigation into Einstein’s hypotheses of “spooky motion at a distance” and “time travel”.
Point being.....the possibility of “devil spirit possession” exists. However the doctrines and “procedures” of dictor paul re: “the holy spirit field” are fabricated, fictitious, and fraudulent imo. They are no different in effect and “results” than what is depicted in “The Exorcist”, or “The Exorcism Of Emily Rose” and other horror film cult favorites. They are also no more proveable, efficacious, or “real” than what those films display, imo. Fundamentalist Christian teachings, theories, and understandings of “devils and demons” is NOT objective nor does it rely upon scientific method to validate its claims or doctrines. It is basically a collection of hand-me-down, ancient superstitions and hearsay regarding heretofore inexplicable human behaviors or experiences, imo. Can such things as described in the AC happen? The possibility exists, but scientific study and investigation has yet to yield objective proof. So, as a healthcare professional, I choose to go with the proveable, predictable, and repeatable therapies which have been discovered and implemented in the clinical arena. At the same time, I do not discount the possibility of miracles, healings, and other inexplicable “spiritual” phenomena.
I believe the teachings and practices of modern fundamentalist or charismatic “Christians” in the “devil spirit realm” are disinformed, inappropriate, misguided, dangerous, and damaging to those they are applied to. They are close-minded and suspicious, as well as ineffective and anecdotal evidentially. TWIt doctrines and practices in this “holy spirit field” are subjective at best, and totally based in the personal perversions and peccadilloes of vp wierwille, BG Leonard, J.E. Stiles, Glenn Clark, Rufus Mosely, Earl Stanley Jones, Rosalind Rinker, K.C. Pillai, Oral Roberts, E. Kenyon, and others whom wierwille used to “credit” with inspiring or mentoring him. They are based completely on personal experience and “private interpretation”, NOT Biblical “research, teaching, and fellowship”. TWIt adherents are dangerously self-deluded in their fairy tale understanding of devil spirits and possession. They are misguided and become religious bigots just like Falwell Jr., Franklin Graham, Copeland, Creflo Dollar, Joel Osteen, Joyce Meyer, Jim Bakker, all the Swaggarts, the Bo and Stanley Reahards, the Sue Pierces, the Gerald Wrenns, the Charlie Quillens, the Mark Frontczaks and Victor Barnards, The SOWERS, Greg Backes, Maurice Goulet, John Lynn and his latest “ministry”, TLTF, the Terry and Melanie Wilsons in Black Forrest, CO, Momentus and all the other Dan Tocchini cults, STFI, Vinny Finnegan’s Living Hope Ministries International, “Dr.” Dale Sides and his bs “Liberating ministries for Christ international”, Brian Bliss and his phony “Christian Leadership and Service Academy”, Geer’s “Word Promotions Ltd.” franchises, Earl and Nancy Burton, Kris and Katie Kile and their Momentus offshoot, Howard Walker and his WC FB Page, Steve Sann and his John Richeson Ning Way Corps site, Jerry Carr, Bob Hanna, Bob and Kathy Mathieson, Paul Norcross, Larry Panarello, Revival and Restoration with Boob and Doody Moneyhands, Michael and Cindy Fort, Ed and Jackie Horney, et al, Michael Rood and his Rood Awakening Jewish roots cult, and all the rest of the domnionist, alt-right neo-Nazi cults, offshoots, and splinters of that horror show in new Knoxville, Ohio.
DWBH, excellent post!! I remember years ago, all the Bulls--t, we had to go through to see a doctor, while in Way World. I hated that "Third-Aid," nonsense!! Inside of seeing a doctor, people would pray for you. I think praying for others, is wonderful, but sometimes you need to see a doctor, and take medication.
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On 1/26/2019 at 9:34 PM, Rocky said:
Welcome Volchic! I'm sure you can get others to talk with here. Glad you made it.
I'm also confident that plenty of people will be interested in your perspective on what has taken place over the nearly 30 years since you first got involved with TWI.
Rocky, true. I would like to know, if Volchic would like to share.
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On 1/26/2019 at 7:15 PM, Volchic said:
Hi There,
I recently left TWI almost two years ago after being involved for 27 years. I'm still trying to unwind it all, but I do want to say that over the years I would look at the information in this group and it helped me to eventually come out of TWI. I got involved when I was 13. Met my husband at The ROA, went Way Disciple Group 5,
I don't know how often I will be able to come here, but I would love to talk with others who have done it too. Thanks.
Volchic, hello. If you are willing to share this information, I would like to know why you left after 27 years. I left in 1988, after beginning in for 10 years. Looking back, I wish I had left much sooner, than I did.
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On 1/27/2019 at 11:06 PM, Volchic said:
Thanks Everyone. I appreciate the warm welcomes. I honestly have no idea how many people are left there. They keep that stuff pretty close to the vest. I can say though, that when I went WayD in '99 there were probably 50 to 60 people going out on the field from Gunnison, the West of the Mississippi group. The last WayMag I saw had pics of the folks going out and the groups were significantly smaller, as in the 5 to 10 range. Also, a development that would affect the numbers involved is the split that was the final straw for us. Yes, there has been another split up. A number of WayCorps had apparently started a group to discuss some grievances that they wanted to address to address to Rivenbark about how she was running things and how people were not seeing signs, miracles, and wonders. And the teaching from HQ had become uber stale. Ok, so I'm trying to remember and I may have some of details wrong, but this is what happened to the best of my recollection. This group began calling themselves Revival and Restoration, because their original intent was to reform TWI not leave it. I believe they first sent a letter outlining their "challenges" and solutions, and their intent to be respectful and work together with the BOD to figure it all out. I think they did call for the resignation of Rivenbark though. Anyways, Rico Magnelli, I think, had a meeting with her after the letter was sent where she summarily dismissed everything and, If my recollection is correct basically fired him. The letter was signed by some names you might know like Fort, Roberts, Moynihan, Horney, and Carter, to name a few. Anyways, this group had a list of grievances, including financial transparency, BOD accountability, and punishment of way corp for questioning Rivenbark etc. There were quite a few accusations. Anyways, our branch coordinators, whom we loved very much, were dropped in a backhanded way of just not being given an assignment. Also, the folks who had been our area coordinators for only a year, The Stiles were dropped for questioning Rivenbark. So this group has broken off from TWI and has reformed. Last I knew they were still calling themselves Revival and Restoration. My husband and I had been eyeing the door for some time, so we took it as our opportunity to leave. I still love many people involved in both groups, but I am not interested in being a part of any of them. I've had my fill of authoritarianism. I have the letters and other emails describing what went down. Maybe I'll go back through them and refresh myself, idk.
I know some of you said you left around the time I joined, which was only a couple of years after "the fog" in 1990. When I first joined my fellowship was a very relaxed sort of hippyish deal. I smoked my first joint there, and had sex with someone in that fellowship for the first time. As time went on it became more and more controlling, and much more conservative. At one point we were instructed that it wasn't wise to go anywhere alone. Also, we were supposed to let the state leadership of any group know if we were even just traveling through their state so that we would be "spiritually covered." My husband and I, who were in our early 20's, were thoroughly reamed out at a meeting in front of everyone of course, that we attended on a trip we were taking because we hadn't let anyone know we would be in that state on our way to our destination. There was a "homo hunt" at the rock of ages in 95. Martindale became obsessed with homosexuality and in included in his version of the foundational class The Way of Abundance and Power that the thing that Eve partook of was a lesbian relationship with Satan who appeared as a woman, and Adam accepted it. (They subsequently just left that whole thing out of the foundational class they recorded after he was kicked) I often wondered if it was because of the alleged relationship between Donna and Rivenbark. When everything went down with LCM we were instructed not to look up anything to do with anything about the ministry or any of the people involved on the internet. Of course, this was to "protect us from the fiery darts of the wicked." After LCM left, everything became super boring and repetitive. Say what you will about him, but LCM was at least charismatic and entertaining. Rivenbark has a quieter gentler form of control and abuse. Over the years people tried to get us to move to HQ, but I was always struck at how robotic and fake anyone who went there came back. We actually did end up deciding to go into the way corps in 2003, and had all of our paperwork in when I ended up accidentally getting pregnant with our first child. Thank God for that. By the time we were eligible again, my husband had decided it wasn't for him. Shortly after I found out we were pregnant we moved back to my home state because I wanted my kids to have their grandparents close, and my father was dying. I was a new mom and I was traveling the hour and a half to visit my dad as much as possible and my fellowship coordinator had the audacity to "encourage me to spend more time with the household that I was." At that point I had started to see how much the ministry had come between my family and myself and I was trying to heal those relationships. I basically told him that my father was dying and I was going to get every minute I could with him and that I would never again put the ministry before my family and he would just have to get used to it. That was the first time I ever remember standing up for myself. from there it took 14 more years to officially leave.
That's the short version of everything. It wasn't all bad, but I'm still working through things. I feel like an idiot at times for letting some of the stuff go on, or being involved with some of the things I was. For the last couple of years since leaving I have thrown myself into other things. I think I just needed some distance. After appearing on a podcast to talk about my experiences a few months ago, I have started to realize I need to work through some of this stuff now. I appreciate your listening. I'm sorry if this jumps around and is choppy. I find myself a little lost for words when it comes to some of this stuff, which is very unusual for me.Volchic, great post!! Thanks for the information!!
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46 minutes ago, Raf said:
You sound bitter, Grace. Say three Hail Dorothies, two Our Rhodas and go to concession before next service.
While at concession, pick me up a beer.
Raf, three Dorothies, and only two Rhodas??!! LMAO!!!
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45 minutes ago, Raf said:
You sound bitter, Grace. Say three Hail Dorothies, two Our Rhodas and go to concession before next service.
While at concession, pick me up a beer.
Raf, not bitter!! Just thinking of what brand of beer you want!!!
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9 minutes ago, Raf said:
You know why I come here?
To be judged by people who don't know who we are, why we're here, what motivates us. I love being called bitter by a total stranger making a blanket statement in a drive by post.
Welcome to Greasespot, Your Honor.
Raf, perhaps the best post ever on the GSC!!
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1 hour ago, DontWorryBeHappy said:
I totally agree with waysider. Take your time. In pseudo-legal and legal questions such as these, I certainly have no desire to see any victim, witness, or whistleblower be injured in any way. Neither have I enough legal accumen to know if and when I’m saying anything “wrong”, or other than what I know to be factual and true. However, I remain indignant, (hopefully righteously so), whenever the scumbags I KNOW are guilty as sin of harming the flock of the True Shepherd, live and continue to breed their perverted evolving mutation of wierwille’s self-serving, sociopathic MOGism, as if nothing THEY ever DID was as bad as what their MOG du jour did! Lying, thieving, grifting cultist weasel bastids! LOL! It irks me terribly!
That being said, I don’t think that either of the Mods here want to go against one of the primary missions of this great old Spot, by maliciously withholding the “other side of the story” regarding TWIt or any of it’s ridiculous and annoying splinters, offshoots, and blunders! Both are meticulously honest and respected men in their respective professions, neither of which is The Law. They do what they do here, spending their most valuable asset, their time, volunteering here to keep the Old Joint open and the coffee fresh. They do a heckuva job imho, and I think both pay due props to the soul of this place as Pawtucket formed it out of TWIt’s earliest fugees, and boldly, fearlessly, HONESTLY, and repeatedly TELLING THE TRUTHS AND FACTS about the other side of the TWIt monstrosities we had all been a part of and come out alive!
I trust that the issues can be justly and properly resolved so that legal and pseudo-legal matters will not preclude the free, open, and honest telling of the REAL TWIt story!................peace.
DWBH,
Vern Edwards letter
in About The Way
Posted
Sky, great post!!