mj412

I do not get it. I do not think it means anyone hates homosexuals. Just that the group doesnt want the problems it may mean to an all male group. come on. really like having girls at all mens club. yes it is discrimination but we all discriminate. I have cat fur on my couch some of my friends will not come over to my house cause it makes them sneeze and eyes water. or they do not like cats. maybe some men feel uncomfortable with men looking at them as potential dates.. it is a young mans group for the most part and they would be looking to meet others to date I assume. they cant say no dating allowed. oh i know many will disagree , but I kind of get it seeing it is such an age group of young males and its oath and all. why not start a "gay" boy scout group for themself? see times have changed homosexuals have gotten a position now of a minority and that brings pwoer and say so in America. Which I do not understand how when they are still a relativly small segment of society . ???? Im all for live and let live but why does it have to be an issue? why cant private groups say what they want and do not want? I see no reason for woman to join all men clubs, or for gays to be in a group that doesnt welcome their lifestyle or choices sexualy. how is that hating? hating to me is not allowing them to be homosexual . period. or not allowing girls to be girls . we all discriminate it is just how and with whom that is different.

I find this idea totally appauling. This is one of the most disrespectful thing I have ever heard about my lord Jesus Christ. Krys following your first sentence along I assume you BELIEVE it was the mother FEAR(the mothers beliving) that killed that little boy her only child and everything HMMM. ok pfal 101 on the grease spot forum. I do not believe it was anyone's beliving that killed the little boy, I think it was Satan playing god and doing his job on earth. I think that mom loved her child, prayed for her child and believed the best she could for her only son as she walked him to school every day. and I think he was murdered. I believe Jesus christ will raise them both up to live forever with HIM as KING of KING. I would not want to live in this world if I didnt know I had a Saviour a defense attorny , a best buddy, the love of my life, to promise me one day as Tom said sooner or later, We do not have an enemy that can and does rack and ruin. to put the power of His blood down to the mere fact of a human brain and how it thinks and believes about things is far to frightening for me. I trust the program. I know not every person will be healed today or tommorrow or for as long as the Lord does tary and I do not care how many bible verses or years in the way tree they have spentTime in. this isnt our home, the bible says the situation as it sits will only get worse untill the whole dam thing is blown to hell and burned up. but believe as you will I hope it is working for ya! sounds nice. as for me and my house WE Serve the LORD jesus christ only, and worship the most high God. and guess what we have problems lots of them with the faith to overcome this place and seek a higher ground of eternity in paradise. but today we have problems and the Lord brings a comforter to show us the way to cope and have peace amid the chaos. You see I go to funerals of good people, I watch a praying mom's prayer for her hadicapped child hoping and believing things should be different then they happen to be. And still they confess Jesus as Lord, WHY? Because it is about Seeking God first in life and loving one another, not beliving our little brain can handle all this life brings without the LORD> i wouldnt want you for a friend if something bad ever did happen to me, or if I was ever sick because to be honest I have had many many days and in fact years I cant believe what is going on around me, yet Jesus christ was always with me and NEVER ever forsake me Thank God almighty , He did believe for me when I just cant. That is HIS job and He is done doubting the Power of the Father and it is finished. amen to that. but without HIM I am just a scardy cat who really thinks this world is to frightening and big and hurtful on my own "believing".

I brought it up because I figured some of you would know the answer . so as I thought but never had anyone tell me, I never asked before. When a person ministers to another they play like a mini jesus now, not a mog not a believer a mini jesus who can do the works He did. how very inflating. well not me. I rather believe because of falling on knees for a few years at His humble grace myself. just a different perspective I guess. . I can pray for a person and if it is Gods will it will be done. As far as dictacted what and who gets healed it isnt in my head or thought or hands to do such. that is one of the last conversation I had before getting marked I was told andI quote" JUST TELL GOD" blah blah I realized then it was the man I was talking to who thought he was calling the shots for God. I just do not agree with it. My response was I can ask in the name of Jesus christ, but I do not tell God to do anything for me. with the number of divorces and etc. in twi I aint so sure it is working according to the plan anyway. whatever floats your boat. I hope nothing bad never happens.

When I was in twi, I never was ministered to. that I know of anyway, no one used that word. The CES and spirit and truth group speak a great deal about ministring ? how do ya even spell that? to one another, John Lynn said that is why he quit . so he could more time ministering to God people. I do not know what ministering even is. can someone tell me? Is it not prayer? Oak I think every parent would exhuast what ever resource well maybe not everyone but most. I hada good friend in High school lose his twin sister because his parents refused to allow a blood transfusion after a bad car accident. they were jehova witness's. but most christians do seek help with illness or injury, from professionals .

God created mankind and He said it was good all of his creation. God does not think his people are evil. People have sins they are involved in. some are more spectacular than others. but sin is sin , Jesus died for all of them for all of us. Why people commint murder well why did paul? because they are fooled and tricked and desperate and all the other reasons God speaks of at length on why His children disobey. that doesnt change how much God loves them or what length He will go to forgive them . why is that? BECAUSE they are not evil and worthless in His eyes, no one is. You can ask why forever, people are involved in many behaviours that hurt one another, God is not. God is a spirit and deals with us on a spiritual level. not a cause and concern level we all know why evil is here on earth if we took bible 101 and hello recognize an enemy is still trying to rack and ruin mankind that God loves. it is between them people just play the pawns if they do not listen to the right one.

heller you and I agree. and that is what Im saying exactly. You metion Jesus as the healer, I end the statement right there , not some "believer" of powers bestowed on them as a special one who knows better and does better than the rest. ie ego I gave a question tho who is the* our *your referring to? Are YOU a group that you speak for? please identify yourself in this group think thing. so why do some get healed and others do not? Is it all about a persons believing power? what about the individual who has prayed and it didnt work ? um why ? Does your Jesus pick and chose ? If so then what happens to learn the details to get on that gravy train? Was it really that mom of the only childs believing that killed that boy? oops sorry not interested in another cult.

Death will not be destoyed while satan is still alive, it will be gone when he is burned to ashes. till then we all will die. no one has lived very long in the last few generation 100 is maxing out even now and many more die even younger. Yes we all will be helaed but the bible does not say WHEN. if your child died and was ill with disability yes he/she will be healed but yet he/she died and may not walk or talk till he is raised again. gods promises DO NOT have a time line on them . it isnt magaic powers instilled in a person because God must love them more than the rest, I find that thinking sick and yes full of ego/

God didnt create man to hate them. He created His children to worship Him, to love and to care for. He looked upon His creation and said it was good. that is what He says about what He made . all your thinking about how evil mankind can be does not change what our Father thinks and FEELS about each one of us. God loves every person very much beyond our understanding is what the bible says and wishes everyone is saved to live forever with Him and Jesus christ. He sent his Son jesus Christ to save US a SAVOUR from something, and that something is Sin. Sin came from the first adam , and all that was is a trick a decieving lie a choice made by one man, FIXED by one man who is Jesus christ. Paul who wrote Romans was a serial KILLER and he killed children entire families of Gods best!!!! He wrote of the MIGHTY grace given to HIM by the man Jesus Christ, he was forgiven . so are we. the battle is not with flesh and blood EVER> it is a spirtual battle, that has been won completely and utterly by the sacrafice of Jesus on the cross. We have an enemy and it is Gods enemy, but he is of no effect today when we claim Jesus as Lord. It is very showy to claim the emotionalism of killing children as a people thing it isnt it is all about demons and those who entertain the behaviours they suggest. These behaviours and ideals are far removed from how God feels for us and wants us to live... but changes NOT how much He LoVES each and every one of us. Paul is a huge witness as you suggest. HE gave the very life of the ONLY one who truly never Sinned because we Do sin. that is how much He loves us. no dear dizzydog I do not misunderstand how God feels, I just disagree that the God I worship and will spend eternity with is capable of anything other than good and loving feeling towards His own making, my God does not hate. hate has always been generated by a Liar,who has taught people to think they are more worthy of our beautiful Saviour, by a deed done or not done. sin has been paid for. end of story. Who is right who is good? not one save JESUS christ. THAT is why the story was written that is why he had to die, He did to be raised to a position in OUR life to forgive every single sin. sin and hate reigns no more. God hates Sin , but not His people , ever. God found the solution to sin, and it was done with LOVE always LOVE never ever has God hurt or even slighted ANYONE!! He so loved the world that He GAVE HIs ONLY BEGOTTEN Son. to us! to us(THE WORLD) and for me to hear anyone say any different I believe is a lie from the very pit of hell. It slaps the RISEN all POWERFUL Christ in the face of why he had to suffer and leave us . Thank you Jesus christ for loving me enough to remember I am a sinner yet still loving me, thank you Jesus christ for believing in the Father far beyond what I ever could and KNowing just how much He truly does love each and every one . thank you Jesus for being my sacrafice and dying To prove to this world the heart and LOVE of our Father . thank you for your prayers dizzydog, I need them, i will also pray for you to rid yourself of the bitterness and the influences you have had taught you about mankind. God loves us Dizzydog whether you chose to believe it or not, He still does and always will. hate and evil is from satan always. the battle is not against flesh and blood, try the spirits ! Abigail that sounds like a good idea!

I do not think God needs anyone or thing to complete His reality of being God. Ask lucifer how far that thought got him . What God made needs HIM not the other way around . where is HE helpless without our meager tasks of some performance magic Hee bestows on those He picks and choses. The mule who complained aout being kicked to hard must have had a mighty job to do huh? nah all of that is magic thining that feeds a ego planted in the brain by bible verses gone heady and far far to intellectual. I am like God and all powerful. God is ALMIGHTY I do not believe He reigns on the whim of whether or not an individual may or may NOT think about, which child just doesnt get the believing enough? and deserves to die today? Or which parent must wear the burden of guilt you apply to their own prayer that didnt work ?

God said what He created was "good". I happen to believe in God and inthe mankind he made to worship Him in truth and spirit. I can also write pages on hurt and evil. but I can write a lifetime about the goodness and love I have seen and lived within the same mankind. It is each choice on how to look at what people have in one another, as for me, Jesus christ asks me to love one another and it is very easily done. I do not have the ability to think mankind is evil any more than I think my own self is evil. do I think we are capable of evil ? yes in the same voice yet much much LOUDER and stronger WE can Love and do good.

I had a conversation with my son about this, and it ended quickly . Maybe some of you have the answer I should have come up with cause Im still quite silent on this. I told my son God can heal you. he looked at me and said "ma with all the innocent litle children dying of cancer and horrible accidents why would God chose to heal me and not them?" Why would God heal me and leave out everyone eles who needs him to heal them? if you can answer these questions and make sense other than "Gods will be done" I do not believe God wants any person to suffer or be hurt. I do believe God can and does heal peple. but why not everyone? is someone more deserving? more sinfull ? what? Is it by grace and His love or by the luck of the draw? this is a sad subject to me, I know people will say it is satan, ok ok it is satan why would God save some and not others ? satan or not? I was silent as I looked at my deep son and his point well taken, and I still quietly ask inside me the same why would that be? claim all the bible verses you may chose , it doesnt change the fact the tiny son of mine deserved to get well no more or less than the next mom's son. Im thankful but I do not get it either.

I think it is hard to understand. hopelessness. Because if we understand what it is what it may mean to a person we have to "get it" and it does change our perspective on what people may mean to us as a whole and what they are capable of. Ever hear people who commint crimes justify it? they are serious. they really think they had a darn good reason . the only problem is proving it to everyone eles where they are coming from. These type of behaviour, Unless it is a crime of passion, can set in a person mind in a quick flash . a reaction a a child can be killed happens with shaken baby syndrome , tired frustrated unable to deal with the stress of a screaming baby and boom it is done. or it can be like a simmering pot of hopelessness that just breeds so much depresion and sadness that a death wouldnt matter that much. I watched a show on Meth users woman who had killed easy to get the drug just a few weeks into the addiction, when asked how they could change so much and allow nothing to matter but the drug they said it fries the brain that much that quickly causing permenant brain damage and they can not think clearly and are indeed so damaged physicly they do not understand what they are doing. not just the high of the drug actual brain cells turning into soup allowing behaivors and action they no longer understand to be wrong. they have no rehab for meth users, the damage is done and it is permanent. they may no longer do the drug but the type of melting of the brain this drug does so fast , and so horrid leaves the person unable to ever function within "normal" ranges again. the show said a very serious alcoholic would have to drink for thirty years to have the type of brain injury a meth user would get in just six WEEKS!!!!! the show showed pictures of woman on meth just a few months after beginning their habit and they looked a hundred years older and they could barely sqeuk out a sentence that made sense because of the actual damage done to their brain. it was a shocking story. this drug is the most serious drug we have ever had because it hits hard and quick all of them said they were addicted after the first time, when asked why they said they were able to have such a good feeling it was fantastic and a complete memory loss to what reality is . till they came down and quickly wanted more. they all said nothing was more important than feeling the drug , and by the time they realized it was no longer a choice the brain is fried to the point it would no longer matter if they stopped or not the damage, is permanent. so nothing eles matters now. including their own children. that is hopelessness. I think you may run into these type of addicts in the prison system and they are capable of losing all and may apear quite evil and very aggressive, it is permanent brain damage due to the drugs they used dizzydog. Im not giving them an excuse the report states clearly they can not be rehabilitated due to the way this drug attacks the brain and does serious damage, again permanent damage long after the use may stop. it can not get well it turns the brain into soup very fast. the report predict our system will see more criminals female criminalsof this sort increase in number. the ease of accessibility and cheap price is driving meth to be the # 1 drug abused in America. I cant explain it very well , but the way they describe the effects of the drug is NOTHING enters your mind when your high, reality removes itself,(along with your brain cells to think and reason and be "human") and nothing matters. they also say they have no memory when they are high, and the brain damage alows them to not remember how they are living or what they are doing to live in such a state.. hence a quick addiction and a quick sense of total hopelessness. If a woman killed her child when high she would never remember it . and if she was coming down the force to feed the addiction is so strong they said over and over nothing eles mattered NOTHING. they do NOT feel remorse because of the damage done to their ability to think and reason. You do NOT hear them try to explain what they did like many criminals .. they do not even remember it or think about it because thye can no longer think in terms of human thoughts as we would normaly. they are aggressive because their brain is damaged to that pointit no longer is able to function. It isnt a behaviour to begin with ,to be UNLEARNED , or rehab it is a very serious blight we have in the prison system today. the best the systems hopes for is to medicate them enough to keep them under control.

I think a key word is hopelessness. Women tend to get depressed when they are angry. and the feeling of hopelessness I think most can understand. I have little hope I can succeed at stopping smoking cigerettes, so I do not try as much as I would another endevour I feel differently about. A person raised in poverty or abuse or both learns Life in itself is hopeless. so the fact life is so out of control so without any means or their ability to change, the taking of another life becomes simple. In some of these murders the parents thinks he/she is actualy saving the children from life itself a life that has beat them down to the point they know no way out of the pain. for some it is not far removed to kill or to give them away. I do think they love them sometimes they just do not know how to live within the absolute hopelessness of life. Like suicide a way to escape and make others pay for the pain you feel. Evil maybe some but not all, I think hopeless is what many feel.

cant blame the way this time. dysfunctional? lol no we are just honest. a chunk of people with issues trying to get along and care the best we can . I watch two girls at work , and hear how hard they work at making sure the house home and family and car and dog is perfect. Im talking about how he got caught by the cops with no insurance on the carand they are shocked and gasp with the shame of it for me! and then they go On about the good college boy in public, he likes church functions when he is home they give him two hundred a week for spending money (nice of him hmm?): but break down in private talks with tears about how their son may have had some drinks one night as he is in the hospital with an overdose in handcuffs... oh mY! (the thugs must have forced him to do it ya know!) in the new car with insurance no less oh my! (said in a wisper with only the chosen ears to hear!) What some present to the world as the way a family is and what we are is sometimes two very different groups!! haha we are honest in a small town we have to be always in your face about the time ya did that . But some live in the illusion of perfection it just always seemed to much work to impress others to me. how do people scream I hate you and shut the F up! and still break light speed to be there when the same person gets hurt or needs help ? we are all insane.. but we love one another very much.. so we function just fine. I do not know how to be perfect. it looks difficlt and stressful to me. Honestly, sometimes when they go on about how life is with no problems present themself out loud in reality I do wonder how the hell I ended up with such a group of cowboys, geeks, freaks and whores lol then I look at my own life and think of all the times they stood with me in my stink, and say thank God for what I got . AMEN?

I will tell ya what I have learned . I know all parents need to parent in the maner they see fit, because we raise diferent people etc. yet consider this, As parents we are so used to telling them what to do how to think what to wear what to say and how to everything, because they look at us as their soul protecter and yes God almighty who supplies. us or death really in their eyes. Then they begin to grow up and to snap out of the way things have always been I believe parents need to check this ideal in themself. the job is to raise them into adults who can function and do well for their own life. My answers may NOT work for them and what they need to do. Jesus has a path for each of His , and parents are not God and to demand or play that role is like a spirtual abuse by teaching them no other comes before us. I relied on God alot as a parent, and I told my kids that. I relied on my own pure guts and curage and played the hand I was dealt . I allow my own children the same. Parts of my life have brought me much joy, and I want that for mine BUT they may find their own JOY in something eles. who am I to say how to handle things how to do things how to say things how to think things? I helped when I could but mostly I respect them enough to know they will find a way because the Lord loves each of us and directs everyone to find their own way . I truly believe this help lessen the tension that can happen when people struggle to get along. It sounds easy it is not, because we are used to ding and fixing and being all we can for them. Now is not neccesarily the time to rescue. We all need those time in life we remember as learning the hard way.

Im going to ask you not to feel like a complete and total failure. Because I have been there with many many teens mine and other family member I will try to help. But mostly I will state being a a parent takes two things and everything will be alright. (unless their is some unforeseen mental or drug abuse issues that deal to be dealt with). when a two year old can not communicate his feelings , is tired, feels over whelmed, angry and can not express with words... What happens? Well most of us know don't we as we giggle about the time the little child "lost" it right then and there. A temper trantrum! maybe they didnt get the nap or we can figure out why it must be so stressful to not be able to say the words they want to say so much. We accept toddlers to have reactions that say they can not handle what is happening and we rush to their aid as a supportive loving parent as feel good and nuturing and worthwhile WE can be the helper of such confusion . Here is the news flash that might help ya understand TEENS are adult toddlers, they are entering or trying to enter into a life that allows them new words freedoms and words to express how life feels NOW. It does not always go so smoothly for them, just as we understand how difficult a long car trip , or having to understand just why would have to share a new toy with a sibling, for a toddler, we should try to understand LIFE is also very unfair and overwhelming for teens and they do NOT have the skills yet to handle it. Over load happens and temper trantrums happens , females tend to stabalize within two years after her period has begun, but boys and their chemicals can take into their twenties . the brain in the teen years is growing at a massive rate we just do not notice they are growing up because it is in the brain, research has shown the brain is actualy growing, Im not taling about "mental" or understanding or coping skills. Your son may feel very ashamed of what happen and he may never have intended all that to go on either. it just did . they react because they do not know what eles to do, just like a toddler they do their best to maintain control untill they no longer can. Thank God he had safe enough loving parents where he could "lose it" and not turn to self detructive or to hurt another with his overwheling feelings. I think you did ok. I think he did Ok. It was a rough patch and everyone sounds like they are all alright. I think it best to just move on and remember how much He loves ya and you him and these things happens. Yes I will say it , SET boundaries tell him like you did it is unacceptable to become physical or abusive with words.. but also maybe teach him about how when he is over tired or overwhelmed or very sad to USE words to communicate. IM beyond middle age, and IM still learning how to use words to communicate MY own feelings too. You know your kid you know if this is drug abuse, or just a bad night, still bothering him with the hurt , inside you do and you need to get honest about it and do the right thing if it is more serious than just an explosion of emotion. trust your love for the kid it is all that will ever really matter anyways . I say with confidence after raising my own and hearing their feedback, on what could have been better or what did work to help them get through such a stage of life. their dr. once told me and I thought it was very sound, just keep the door to talk open and it will all be alright eventualy. Like the parent of the three or four year old that still wont go potty, or the occasional slip in the pants, we should understand that just because the toddler is six feet tall and has few choice ugly words they like to use doesnt mean they are any less frustrated or upset or even READY for all life puts in their path. We really shouldnt think they should handle it all, they can not their brain isnt ready yet. but they are growing and getting better, and trust me, just like no one ever went to college in a diaper, your teen will eventualy be able to express his feeling and maintain his body parts hands and mouth, better more and more. Till one day your sitting in the resturant with them on MOMS day and they have their own child and you wonder HOw the heck you ever got so blessed to have such a wonderful person in your life to love and give ya another. Life is amazing, time heals most of it, if your really really concerned then listen to your gut and go to an expert and see what they think, but if not remmber all of us felt bad when the little baby fell on the side walk and skinned the precious knee the first time, and sometimes parents of teens can feel ashamed or bad too, but it isnt our to job to "protect" them from life, life is a good thing each must live for his own self. But we can soften the blows of it and put a couple of baid aids on and just forget bout it for now, stuff happens , you understand your a good parent. and that is all it takes.

Thanks Trefor, But a homosexual parent of a homosexual child would not be all that concerned about having a grand child. I mean they are and they do ya know? and many homosexual have children today so I would think that wouldnt be a concern as much today. Of course most would have to accept what ever our children do as ADULTS unless we want to sever ties which happens in many families for many different reason. As far as religion if a parent really feels that strongly about how much their children "sin" effects their own life( I do not get it) the the relationship may not be build on much and worth forgetting about when your grown anyways. I can listen to my children and not encourage behaviours that I consider bad for my child and I can make known my opposition concerning certain behaviours and beliefs system in other words educate my children, that is a parents job. Today education on homosexuality needs to begin young and Yes I clearly teach my kids it is wrong and not to be accepted as a behaviour. Then if they are exposed or influenced I know as well. It is important to me as a parent and I dare say alot of parents today. I do not teach hate but I do not teach tolerence when it comes to personal body boundaries I taught my kids to respect their bodies from a very young age to to never allow anyone to disrespect their body. it belongs to them GOD gave it to them to take care of. They were never confused about what their body meant to them or who's responsibility it is to make sure it is ok. the use of our bodies as instruments our thoughts concerning SEX are formed at a very young age. and to spare a big tirade I will say NO I do not believe anyone is "born" homosexual, but I think it can happen at a young enough age where the teen may not remember when the desire or thoughts began and that is about the same as "being born with this idea" but somewhere along the lines he knew he felt different from the rest. Parents need to be aware very aware of what a child is thinking and doing from a very young age and address any confusion imediately.

I agree twi tried to put more people in subjection to rules and regulations as Martindale tried(in vain I think) to regain his leadership position after Geer made the pop annocement. He only wanted those loyal to HIM as paticipates. I am referring to the hey day when twi was NOT falling off a cliff and its doctrinal stance on subjects. We never had to conform or be punished, sure influenced weighed on peoples life style peer presure and the need to belong influenced many into making misfortunate decisions concerning their own personal life and joining the next up- and coming corps or wow program. I agree. But I will also say this when I was very active in twi the members had serious careers and some boatloads of money to "share" . They did what they wanted when they wanted as well. When the clergy came to town for a class or meeting the most affluent folks would entertain them at their houses. I never lived in a poor town or inner city so to be frank I saw alot of surburban two income high middle incomes hosting the class etc. It appears to me it was the young , single or poorer familes that wanted to seek out the programs twi offered. I still live in the same town and many of these families still own businesses , have great big houses kids went to college and many have a large degree of skill in many areas of life. It is my understanding that when a person Joined into the Corps program it was to dedicate their life in service to God and the movement of his word so naturaly everything eles would be secondary. clergy as well. It was a "calling" they had to feel and it was not mandatory anyone be in the corps program to belong, far from THAT it was all the rest of us who had the money who supported them!!!! Moneyie stable life and income came from good solid citizens that had community, businesses and family commintments outside of twi. I think many troubled people joined twi and found out an easy way to get involved in something to which they could belong, so they sought twi and its programs , I know many more folks who just had twigs or fellowships , went to work everyday , took a few reruns on the classes haha and lived regular Americana lifestyle, and they in my opinion is why it was so popular and able to have the type of financial success twi did. When the control issues got larger and the people so dependent on what twi said for answers demanded more Martindale couldnt deliver , people started to whine leadership had a split and twi got noticably smaller...

Many met up with TWI on Campus. Twi had a two year degree program which allowed a AAS degree, worthless as a two year degree is, it still represents education. I was in college and worked outside the home all my years of being involved , I never was "thrawted." Mrs. Weirwille was a RN that is a four year degree! Martindale went on and on about his college days . Twi bragged about the accomplishments in education and the military of its followers. I knew many educated people in twi. Many stupid people as well. the reason many did not seek higher education is because they chose the "programs" wow, way corps, staff to get involved in with TWI, and did not manage the time well enough to live full lifes. Yes I saw that and thought it is very sad. TWI never had a doctrine set that did not allow higher education for women or men. but that is a far cry from a fourth grade education that allows you the ability to read and write if your lucky. Some may have felt the fool and wasted time in life by getting involved in twi, But they never did not allow a person to seek higher education. I also saw many leave twi and COME back and for the most part they got full support and "love" that is still happening today. Divorce was common in twi. In this cult divorce is NOT an option and they get married at the age of twelve and thirteen and have a child imediately. VPW said to wait a few years to have a child after marriage to be able to learn to love your marriage partner. That is a huge difference in ability to think for ones self and make solid choices. In this cult if you ESCAPED you where indeed punished the rest of your life. You would be forced to live with one of the other wifesand under constant supervision. In twi you could go anywhere you pleased in this cult they are strictly forbidden, they where beaten down with physical and mental abuse everyday since birth to stay. I would say that is quite a difference, than twi and its loyal participates. A bad marriage partner while twi is again a far cry from group endorsed abuse from the day your born and how much fear is instilled about leaving.

+++The girls said they went to fourth grade. what is that about the age of eight or so? They said they learned about the church doctrine in school. How do people think they can "fit" in in the local high school with other teens? They will not also they say they stillbelieve in much of what they were taught as far as male dominance, why would they not? Dr Phil said they need to "replace that thinking with new thinking they looked at him like he was talking from the moon. ( I get that part somewhat they were trained to think in a certain way and their enitre life is this way of thinking. I do not agree that twi is like this cult, I never saw babies being dunk in cold water to be quiet for day long church services in twi. I never saw forced marriages of very young girls to much older men for the sole purpose in life to have children. I never saw the denial of any type of education public or home school in twi in fact the had a college program. It is the isolation of this group that keeps it powerful, they live together on a mass of land and few travel outside of the compound in their life time. they can not just leave, in twi you could . problems and family situation included. In this cult you are watched and held 24 /7 if they even think you will go anywhere that is why the girls had to leave in the middle of the night. If you go back you are punished and a lesser member for the doing of it. hmmm that does sound like the twi IM better than you thought. If you see the community the girls all must where long skirts or long dress, and if they do leave they most probably must leave their children because the father is the boss and to leave in the night with no where to go all of the family lives together with two or three children and probably pregnate is very difficult. they say many do not leave because of their children , of course the father would have custody ofthe kids if a mom took the kid how could she possibly support it? no education, no skills in coping outside the domination. This lifestyle seems normal to them they are raised in this culture. who am I to say it is wrong? I did hear some the the people willing to help anyone who wantd to leave the group, the sister who picked these girls upin the nightsaid she thinks they will go back. she has helped another sister of this brother, who had left but went back after staying with her for a few weeks. She said she didnt want to feel "used" by the girls who leave and go back because it is a terrible strain on her. I imagine, these girls have zero skills it would be like taking in alot of work and risking the fact they very well may go back when life gets real on the outside. the money supporting them the time spent trying to help them educate them everything. although they claim child abuse , and the one brother has stayed out for a number of years with his wifes help, remember it means leaving your entire way of life and your entire family forever. that is a lot on a young teens plate and if an older woman left she would have far to many children to make it outside the cult and would have to leave her children to be raised by other women who have alot of children, and in an atmosphere of abuse , not likely to happen. I was not born into the twi mind set, I realize it is difficult for kids who where born into twi but many did go to public school and have other influence other than the group. It probably is true some teens have chosen to leave twi and been shunned by their family but I never saw it as a wide spread issue when I was in or even encouraged. I know some in the off shoots who have family members (kids) that do not go and they are not shunned. In twi I think it is how a family handled the situation, in this group the cult IS your family they are solid and have a great deal of strict rules and regulation concerning how to conduct your life on a daily bases. I know twi wanted to control, but it appears to me this group and its male leaders do have control of its members.

My kids where all virgins, untill they were adults. How do I know? I asked them. I kept them busy doing other stuff and I was a single parent they knew the danger of heart break involved in "love" and sex. . . None of my children are homosexual, when my daughter was a young teen she hung out with a cross dresser black guy who was chubby who used to flip out her brother when he would show up at the door in her white I skirt.I did ask her to not share her clothes and to give it to him now thank you. WE laugh about it now. I do talk to them about when to have children, because of money and such. it isnt my job to protect adults who can chose with their own mind what to do with their own life. In fact I will say it is impossible to protect our children from harm or heartbreak. Life is life we all face misfortune, as a parent I may be able to be a help in learning how to cope with what life brings sometimes, at the best but mostly it is just to care and love. I taught my kids Sex is an ADULT choice a person who has need of "protection" or guidance , has no business playing in an area they can not cope without help. they are not ready if they need help with such an important and intimate and personal area of life. homo or hetro.

Sharon let me tell ya I know of plenty of parents who do allow such, and then when the baby arives take it on as well . happens everyday grandparents raising a second or thrid generation of kids that are very troubled and unstable. the "kids" never able to handle the responsibility . The welfare mindset and the drug abuse invading our culture is massive in many communities. and the other side is a possible total estrangement from your children or your grand children. it is a tough thing being a parent. up to about two years ago (Pataki changed the law )our govt. NY said it was legal for any 16 to live anywhere he/she wanted and parent had nothing to say about it!!! hence idiot adults having nice crash pads for many of their childrens friends out of FEAR if they didnt allow it their own kids would be knocking on the next door and move in. very common and not in the poor inner city either Im talking upper crust america kids who parents didnt want to lose control . AND the parents are responsibile for the money if they get into trouble or run up bills till they are 18. sound unfair? IT WAS I fought for the law to change here. now it is 18. but we have alot of parents raising their kids kids here, or slap that teen on birth control and let him spend the night. Landlord will rent to whoever has the money, it is legal, and a horny or high teen has a place, at sixteen parents cant touch it. so some parents just allow (out of safety and concern they claim) it is easily done.

I saw the show, one of the girls wants to go back to be with her mom and her siblings of which she has like 53 . the brother who was raised in the cult is the one they are living with, his wife picked them up in the night, the wife was never in the cult and the brother said it was because of her he is able to stay away from all of his family and the group. He claims brutal child abuse. They dunk the babies face in ice cold water if they cry because of the day long services the babies can not interupt, the babies do not cry . They claim the local police are also "members" or friends of the cult and will not help them at all. If they call 911 the members somhow find out before the police arive and the situation is never addressed. child protective have been called and investigated and have never found an issue. I bet who would dare complain? they get married off as young as ten and must have children right away, one girl spoke of a friend who is 18 and has four children already. If they go back they will be married off imediately their father would chose, they would have to have children right away and keep on having children. they live with the other wifes of ther husband and the children. they will never be allowed to be without supervision, other girls have come back and they say they are treatd like they are in prison because they can not be trusted. but to leave such a large family and the only way yu have ever known is so very difficult. One of girls said she believes they are right(the cult) in many areas of life still, men are superiour to woman in every way and woman has zero choices. One said the only difference she has now is she can chose who she marries and how many children she will have. If they stay out they have a long long way to go to get what this big old world means for them and choices, it would be very very difficult for them.

this is unfortunate. I understand how the schools have to be very careful . they didnt know it was such a telephone call, poor kid in is a tight spot , but it sounds like it will be resolved , his grades and his attitude toward authroity is a seperate issue all together. they may have to find an advocate to help this teen organize his life and manage his relationships , time and the emotions he is dealing with.

maybe we can claim to love unconditionly as a parent but for me I will not tolerate unconditionly. I have boundaries. A person and their sexuality is their business as adults, but my kids where not allowed to have sex in my house. (did they? HMMM. not that Iknew of) and I do not allow them to spend the night with the opposite sex in my house. I know plenty of parents who are afraid of losing their kids approval or love in some way and compromise their own values. I ask what does that really teach a growing brain about being a strong person able to stand on principle? alot in a very negative way, alot more than being a "friend or peer" . teens need adults that are able to think and JUDGE situations clearly not another buddy to cloud what they may be trying to figure out what it means to grow up in the crazy mix up world of this stage of life and help them become a person with intregity and strength. I have a question for homosexuals.. many hetro's would like their child to grow up and be of their sexual orientation , do homo's want or desire their kids to be homosexual? As difficult it is for me to understand how one can be attracted to the same sex is it as difficult for a homosexual to understand how their child can? not the simple answer please "oh my kid will be loved whatever" that is to easy how do ya really feel about it? I hear parents of homosexual struggle, do homosexual parents also struggle if their kids turn "straight". I would think it would be as difficult to understand or help or consel your teen or young adult in area that one can not understand. They are different experiences sex is sex but this is like a white person saying I know what it is like to have black skin in a way , we couldnt know how it is really and I would think it would be very difficult to communicate or help or understand on certain levels. Like trefor said hetro's do NOT experience what it is like and homo's do not know what it is like . It would be a much more difficult and strained process .