Nathan_Jr

20 hours ago, Human without the bean said:

No WordWolf.  That was released in 1973.  I'm sure it has gone platinum multiple times over. but they would have been vinyl or cassette and before the era of CD's arriving in 1982.  I think Billy Joel's 52nd Street was the first commercial CD released in Japan in 1982.  This group was a British American rock band.  And it's not Fleetwood Mac.

Invisible Touch, Genesis?

9 hours ago, Charity said:

Merriam-Webster Dictionary is very similar to the above except for its definition #3 which says “conviction of the truth of some statement or the reality of some being or phenomenon especially when based on examination of evidence.

 

If I say "I believe," it is this definition I mean. I believe until better evidence or better argument is presented. Belief is ALWAYS temporary and dependent. It is never held tightly.
 

The first two definitions more accurately apply to beleef.

And I should say, if one wants to find out if there is that which has no name, that which is eternal, one may very well find out for oneself. In this finding out, one shall see that belief has nothing to do with any of it.

But, please, PLEASE, do NOT believe me.

11 hours ago, Charity said:

 

I want to understand what you are saying in the posts above because as of now, I see "beleef," as you call it, as being the basis of Christianity.  Belief is defined as follows: 

Oxford Dictionary = an acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists - a firmly held opinion or conviction

Cambridge Dictionary = the feeling of being certain that something exists or is true:

Merriam-Webster Dictionary is very similar to the above except for its definition #3 which says “conviction of the truth of some statement or the reality of some being or phenomenon especially when based on examination of evidence.

What I find noteworthy is that the word "evidence," or any form of it, is not included in the first two definitions and is used as an add-on with the third, meaning evidence is helpful but not necessary. 

This is important since evidence is the available body of facts indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid, and fact is a thing that is known or proved to be true.

Without proven facts, a belief is subjective and is no guarantee of truth no matter how firmly held it is by someone.  A child looking at a flower can hold the belief that it is a flower (which is a fact) but for the child to believe what someone taught her - that the flower is made by God, this would be holding onto a beleef since this is not a proven fact. 

Finally, since beleefs are not based on facts, evidence to the contrary means nothing to those who hold onto them. 

Victor paul wierwille, NaRd., valued belief above all action (without exception, or, if you prefer, without distinction). He taught believing is something you do, faith is something you have. So, works-dependent, not faith-dependent, salvation was the foundation of his theology, doctrine, dogma. Beleeeve in four crucified, let the Greek language and the textual evidence be damned!!

Just look around you today. Pay attention. Belief is the source of all division. In spite of evidence and facts and reason and logic, billions of people cling to their beliefs. Children are abused and murdered everyday because of belief. Genocide has always been justified by belief. Belief is the bedrock of theocratic fascism. (I'm feverishly resisting stepping over the precipice into politics!)

Science is improved by better science. I believe something to be true until I no longer have to - until I know, until I see.

I respect anyone's RIGHT to believe, but I don't have to respect WHAT they believe.

Notice, the more you know, the more you question; the less you know, the easier it is to be sure of your stupid, stupid beliefs.

42 minutes ago, Charity said:

Good one.

Not so funny, though, is that the denials are resurfacing again through a recent podcast (and therefore continuing on in the news) with the blame for what happened in Germany being placed on Winston Churchill instead of Hitler.  Stupidity is a far cry from what is behind such ideas.  

I’ll tell you what’s behind those ideas. BELEEF.

Who requires you to beleeve? The ideologue, the politician, the propagandist, the grifter, the charlatan, that’s who.

The liar needs you to beleeve. Only the liar will preach the importance of beleeving above all else  

Belief has no place where truth is concerned. 

2 hours ago, Raf said:

The last post on this thread was 19 years ago, man.

I know. I’m a shameless opportunist when it comes to the use of “four crucified stupid.”

Not just stupid.

Flat Earth stupid.

No.

Worse.

 

Four crucified stupid - the stupidest. 

1 hour ago, waysider said:

 

I can count on you, Waysider.

To see as a child. To see as a child before cultural, political and religious conditioning. To see without judgement. To see without beleef. To see what actually is.

So, to see purely, completely, serenely. To see everything with awe and wonder. This is real liberty and power. This is the new birth, again.

But it may only come as a glimpse.

Don't ask me how. I cannot say and I would not say. It can't be uttered. But we all had it once. (All without exception, or, if you prefer, all without distinction.)

This can't happen while clutching, clinging, to dogmas, doctrines, presumptive conclusions and beleefs. 

15 minutes ago, Charity said:

Well there's Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

And Rom 5:8 But God commends his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Believing these verses then means you have to believe that God is loving those whom he places "in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death." 

A bit of cognitive dissonance is in order, I'd say.

Ok. But isn't something required of you to be saved from the one who loves you? Isn't there something to do first before receiving this saving love? Conditions must be met, lest wrath come down upon thee!

16 hours ago, Charity said:

"perfect and unconditional love"

It is not unconditional. The love comes once the conditions are met.

I don't think TLC believes it's unconditional. Even poor victor didn't "teach" unconditional love. 

1 hour ago, Charity said:

My apologies Nathan, I decided not to add the scripture references in order to keep the post shorter - each of the phrases are directly from the KJV and can be googled and the chapter and verse will come up immediately.  The one you asked about is Romans 2:8.  Please post what you learn about it - it'd be interesting to know.

The phrases were simply about describing and/or declaring God's wrath in the past, present and future.  Sometimes they were against the pagan nations and unbelievers and sometimes they were against God's chosen ones who disobeyed him.  

 

Reading through Romans chapter 2 again - it's been awhile - and all I can say is, Wow!

I wonder if victor paul wierwille, NaRd., ever read this chapter? I wonder if he had, could he have been persuaded to start obeying truth and stop defecating in its mouth?

Thanks, Charity, for answering my question. Saved from the wrath. Got it!

Were all those passages (without exception or distinction) written to me, or are they merely for my learning?

48 minutes ago, Charity said:

But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath;

Would you please cite chapter and verse? I'd like to look at the context and examine the Greek from which the phrase "obey the truth" is rendered. Such a curious phrase, obey the truth. I suspect it's an awkward translation or else a figger of speech.

46 minutes ago, Charity said:

I don't have the intestinal fortitude to watch this right now - and most likely ever.  Any word on how The Young Adult Rock 2024 went?

 

No idea, but I suspect it was a tremendous demonstration of desperate clutching and clinging to beleef.

50 minutes ago, Charity said:

NaRd?

Not a Real doctor

What a bittersweet song, Human!

“If it doesn’t fit, ya just gotta MAKE it fit.”

— victor paul wierwille, NaRd.

"Good fun, good food, good fellowship, and GREAT Word!"

Is GREAT Word TWI's answer to Loy's HOT Bible?

Saved from what?

4 hours ago, Charity said:

discovering an empty tomb where an angel told them of a resurrected Jesus

Well, it depends on which gospel you read.

Mark - a young man

Matthew - an angel

Luke - two men

John - two angels

For me, these differences are interesting, not problematic, but for inerrantists…well, there’s work to do!

Victor paul wierwille would have you cross out the words and verses with the strongest manuscript attestation, perform lexical magic tricks by inventing brand new Greek grammar and definitions, and, ultimately, rewrite it all according to “the original.” And along the way he would conjure figgers of speech where none exist just for the mmmph factor.

See, kids? Fits like a palsied hand in a bloody glove.

Just tremendous!!

3 hours ago, Charity said:

Doubting, as Peter found out when his walk on the water with Jesus began to go south, is never a good idea. 

Except when it is.

One of my favorite pericopes on doubt and belief is John 20: 19-29.

Whoever wrote GJohn was writing against the Thomasine community. The author composes this scene intending to make a sound argument for believing without evidence: "Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.”  But, by my lights, the author of GJohn misses his mark and unintentionally proves the antithesis.

Because Thomas doubted, because he investigated, he was the only disciple to touch the incorporeal resurrected body, the only disciple to whom Jesus vouchsafed this knowledge. Thomas saw. What he saw he surely could not unsee. The other disciples merely believed.

A powerful, unintended lesson on how doubt and inquiry can lead to astonishing spiritual insight.

1 hour ago, Charity said:

believing the following lies about yourself: your heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; you are all as an unclean thing, and all your righteousnesses are as filthy rags; you’re carnal, sold under sin and you’re wretched

Gaslighting.

Also, a convenient cop out for abusive charlatans like victor paul wierwille: "I can't help but to lie, cheat, steal and rape. It is my nature."

1 hour ago, TLC said:

Is it so difficult to believe that the life that Jesus first had was laid down at Calgary, and the life that he was raised with  is something brand new and different than anything that ever existed before?

If so, then you have plainly never really understood nor believed Acts 13:33

And Acts 13:34-37. He was raised from the dead, incorruptible, glorified, holy with a life more than abundant. Whatever the life, if Jesus was raised, is he dead? 

Which is the more valuable life? Which life is more desirable? The one subject to decay or the one that will never decay?

What was sacrificed if Jesus is living gloriously and more than abundantly?

"..since Jesus is still alive and well, and leading and guiding us in perfect harmony w/ the Holy Spirit.."

This is a conventional, even essential, Christian maxim, right? Even the pseudo-Christian charlatan, victor paul wierwille, "taught" Jesus is sitting, alive and well, at the right hand of the Father, right? Albeit, far, FAR away in a distant, inaccessible realm, hence his AND his Father's absence.

If he is alive, he didn't die. Not REALLY. And if he didn't die, he wasn't sacrificed. What kind of payment is this if Jesus is still alive? It seems more like he just took a long weekend off.

Genuine question: How does this work, theologically?

On 7/9/2024 at 3:01 AM, WordWolf said:

Ok, upload is locking me out, but I'll repost pages 3 and 4 when I can.

 

Thanks for doing this, WW. Looking forward to pages 3 and 4, or else an unbroken hyperlink to the file.

Your post is especially timely, as Chris Geer's name has been showing up in my feed lately -- Invoked by survivors and current sycophants alike.