Charity

I’m watching a video called “Seeing Through Christianity - A Critique of Beliefs and Evidence” by Bill Zuersher. With the concept of God being human made, he’s covered so far the evolutionary stage of the OT from Canaanite polytheism to Jewish monotheism due to the history of the Babylonian conquest. He’s about to get into the transition of Jewish monotheism to Apocalyptic Judaism due to the Persian Zoroastrian influence. I’m beginning to better understand why some Christians who believe in God but agree with the fictional storytelling of the OT will balance or cancel out the negative character of the OT God leaving God with the more positive image shown in the NT. Is this why someone (like myself for instance) who refers to the scriptures in the OT that show God committing atrocities may be pointed out as having a fundamentalist point of view? In this way, fundamentalism can be taken as being subjective at times in contrast to the objective definition which refers to it as taking the whole bible literally and as being inherently accurate. Am I understanding this correctly?

Good question!

By definition, if one believed the account was fictional, then they should not refer to it as a record. The noun "account" by definition does not include the words "facts" or "proven to be true." This could be an alternative to using the word "record."

Hi Nathan, I'm curious where you read the first "record?"

Your post speaks so well of what many Christians (no one specifically) find a need to minimize, rationalize or ignore. Personally, I didn't spend much time in the OT so I didn't focus much at all on the sick and terrible things God did there. It's like the "out of sight, out of mind" thing happening. However, for those Christians who believe in the trinity, it must be said that Jesus was right there along with God agreeing with him since they are all of one mind. I also didn't spend much time in the gospels, so I can't name where Jesus may have been doing the "like father, like son" thing, but he did teach that like the tares are gathered and burned in the fire so will all things that offend and do iniquity be cast into a furnace of fire in the end times where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. He was not talking only about spiritual beings for he was warning those present who had ears to hear, to do so.

Here are other verses of Jesus casting out devil spirits. I believe these are fictional stories but if they were inspired by God, they are quite revealing about his son who always did his father's will. Some might disagree with my reviews of them, but that's no problem. Man in a synagogue - (Luke 4:33-35, Mark 1:23-26) the spirit had convulsed him so the man was thrown down when leaving but it "did not injure" him. But here's the interesting thing: the devil spirit gave Jesus some free advertising saying, "Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art; the Holy One of God." This, however, displeased Jesus for he commanded the spirit to "hold his tongue." Maybe the spirit let the cat out of the bag before Jesus had the chance to claim it for himself. A blind and mute demoniac - No harm done. (Matt 12:22) The Gadarene demoniac - No harm done to the man (Mark 5:1-13), but here's the awful thing: Jesus had a conversation with this devil spirit called Legion who asked Jesus not to send the many spirits in the man away out of the country but into a great herd of swine. So, Jesus gave them leave and sure enough, the spirits entered the swine which then ran violently into the sea. (That must have cost the owner big time). A mute demoniac No (Luke 11:14), but here's a comforting thought: in verses 24-26, Jesus taught when an unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walks through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he says, I will return to my house and when he does he takes with him seven other spirits more wicked than himself so that the last state of that man is worse than the first. Daughter of a Greek mother No (Mark 7:24-30), (21), but here's the disgusting thing: when you add on Matt 15:21-28, you find out that Jesus refused to deliver the daughter because he was only sent to the lost sheep of Israel, so she went and worshipped him only to be referred as a dog by Jesus. BUT, when she gave an incredibly humble response by pointing out that even dogs get to eat of the crumbs that fall from their master's table, Jesus commented about her "great faith" and healed the daughter.

Mark 9:25 When Jesus saw that the people came running together, he rebuked the foul spirit, saying unto him, Thou dumb and deaf spirit, I charge thee, come out of him, and enter no more into him. 26 And the spirit cried, and rent him sore (mangled, convulsed), and came out of him: and he was as one dead; insomuch that many said, He is dead. 27But Jesus took him by the hand, and lifted him up; and he arose. That was some spirit written about in these verses, but the words say the spirit convulsed the child so violently that he appeared lifeless, not Jesus. Did Jesus know ahead of time this would happen to the child when casting out the spirit, then my opinion is that yes, he did abuse him mentally. Jesus could just as easily commanded the spirit to come out of him GENTLY, and enter no more into him. If Jesus did not know, my opinion would be no, he did not abuse him mentally but I'd have to point out that the spirit came out of the child giving Jesus the "middle finger." (IMO)

This is the first time you mentioned “spirits” in connection with that record which was how Mark and Luke explained it. In the past, you spoke only of a “spiritual cause.” I wrote: Even though I had doubts concerning the story my friend shared with me, it was the talk of devil spirits that was upsetting. I had always been that way when reading about them in the bible, especially the one story about Jesus casting a devil spirit out of a child. That one did come to my mind because of what was happening in my grandson’s life with his non-verbal autism and seizures. This paragraph was referring to a time when I was beginning to seriously doubt what the bible said about prayer and trusting God. It was before I had concluded there were no such things as devil spirits. I wrote: This bulls hit doctrine from the bible is evil and very harmful. This was the statement that caused you to wonder if I was saying Jesus casting out a devil spirit from the child was evil and very harmful. I wrote it after I had deconverted from Christianity. No, the BS doctrine I was talking about was not about Jesus wanting to deliver a child tormented by a devil spirit. The BS doctrine was about devil spirits in general and specifically about a child having one. You obviously can’t understand what I was going through at the time because you have never experienced it yourself. I had written previously about how my grandson would sometimes get physically agitated because of his autism and also about his myoclonic seizures where his head would suddenly jerk downwards and forcibly hit whatever was in front of him. He had regular black eyes, bruises, cuts and bumps on his forehead and face. It was painful watching all of this. That I had at times (before deconverting) considered he might have a devil spirit was because of those gospel records, and this made the situations even more distressing. Whether I was wrong in making that connection is not the point. The point is that now I believe the doctrine that devil spirits exist is evil and very harmful.

Chockfull, I made no reference to twi or man’s abuse in my post. I was clearly referring to Yahweh according to the scriptures. My example of an “abusive, angry, authoritative and vengeful” partner in context related to God, not some man. Sorry you missed my point. My first paragraph was an acknowledgement that there seems to be no harm if people accept God and Jesus Christ based on the positive verses about them in the bible. I did imply that doing so means these people are ignoring the verses that definitely show God in a negative light. Is talking about the scriptures that record God sending horrific curses on people or outright killing them fundamentalism? Are these verses not to be taken literally? If not, how should they be taken? (Please remember, the fact that I don’t believe that such a horrendous god exists does not deny my right to question them as part of a discussion about God.) Now specifically talking about you Chockfull, how far are you going with OT scripture wherein God consistently demands obedience when you wrote in a post “God as Creator was not a dictator so he did not interfere in His creation every microsecond but set up systems where people could choose to talk to Him or not?” (I still plan to reply to that post.) Three times you bring up twi – my post had nothing to do with them.

I have not been on GSC today because I've been busy but also because I have been trying to figure out your attitude towards me in your recent posts. So here is what I want to share with you. When you were finally out of twi, you continued for years on the “About the Way” forum talking about your experiences and discussing vpw’s teachings which you no longer believed. Here, on the “Atheism” forum, I have the same right to discuss Christianity and scripture even though I no longer call myself a Christian nor believe in the bible. For both your situation and mine, everything doesn't become perfectly clear at the time we make such a major spiritual change in life. There are many past experiences, beliefs, feelings and thoughts to share and work through. Having said this, I want to note that you have brought up “not believing” 6 times in your replies to my statements and questions when nothing I had written in them were about my “not believing.” Here they are: Heb 11:6 – I talked specifically about the issue of absolute trust being necessary with God. Your reply was “If you don’t believe in a magical character how would you possibly try to please a magical character?” James 1:5-6 I talked specifically about the issue of absolute trust being necessary with God. Your reply was “If you don’t believe in a God, why would you ever ask Him for wisdom?” I asked about an all-loving God based on my thoughts about the above two scriptures. Your reply was “And now that you don’t believe in God you are saying making basic logical statements (which were yours) shows an unloving God?” You wrote “If you read the Bible and don’t believe in a God it probably isn’t going to be that interesting and you probably won’t read it much.” (I had not been talking at all about not believing in a God, so why make this point?) I said you needed to look deeper into Heb 11:6 because your comment in reply to what I had shared about the verse was simply "I mean is this just common logic ? If you don’t believe in a magical character how would you possibly try to please a magical character?" Then I shared more about the verse. Your reply again was not on what I had shared but rather: “What I find ironic is someone with no belief in any inspiration in scripture telling me to “look deeper” into scripture.” After stating I was confused by two of your statements and asked if you were referring to devils spirits in each of them, you did not answer my questions but turned the focus on me for asking about devil spirits. You replied, “With respect to the devil spirit comments, you are choosing to be confused as you don’t believe they exist. From your mouth.” I think I have been pretty consistent with staying on topic when replying to your comments. I would kindly appreciate it if you would do the same with mine without making out-of-context statements about some lack of belief in God.

I think there are enough positive verses about God and Jesus in the bible that people can accept them both on those terms alone. The bible says God is love and also that there is no fear in love. Therefore, there should be no fear in loving God and living a Christian life. If that is as far as people want to go, there doesn't seem to be any harm in doing so - there are only benefits, one of which is freedom from needing to have an obedient-slave-to-god mentality. I don't know exactly where salvation comes into play here though. I started this thread in this forum because of its name. I see the whole of scripture shows that Yahweh is not a good god. Any supposed benefits attributed to him come at a very high price, and that is why I now speak out when people say he is good. When you live with an abusive, angry, authoritative and vengeful partner, it's not wise to live in denial or say you have to take the bad along with the good. You leave that partner and look for one that is safer and healthier. One does not need this god of the bible to live a loving, meaningful and peaceful life.

1) I did not give an interpretation of Gen 2 & 3. I referred to them exactly how they were written. Would you, as a loving father, simply let your perfect child who has no knowledge of evil nor of the existence of a cunning and evil arch-enemy of yours deal with such a creature on her own, knowing that she would be deceived by his craftiness? Would you not correct her before she went to your other child and offered him the forbidden fruit you had placed in their home? Would the matter of testing their obedience to you supersede the you knew would happen after they ate the fruit? The story makes no sense as I think you know, but millions of people still believe it is how sin entered the world. So now, what is the real reason for the "wickedness" in mankind and the authority and power of the devil and his spirit followers and the need for a messiah as described in the rest of the bible? 2) Concerning the rest of your sentence: I was not stuck on vpw's law of believing. I was stuck on trusting God. There is a difference - the former is a false doctrine and the latter is scriptural knowing that the word "faith," used over 200 times in the bible, means trust. The devil spirits I connected with my grandson were not because of some idiot who was blabbing about them in a medical situation. Even though I had doubts concerning the story my friend shared with me, it was the talk of devil spirits that was upsetting. I had always been that way when reading about them in the bible, especially the one story about Jesus casting a devil spirit out of a child. That one did come to my mind because of what was happening in my grandson’s life with his non-verbal autism and seizures. Mark 9:17And one of the multitude answered and said, Master, I have brought unto thee my son, which hath a dumb (mute, speechless) spirit; 18And wheresoever he takes him, he tears (seizes) him: and he foams, and gnashes with his teeth, and pines (withers, stiffens) away: and I spake to thy disciples that they should cast him out; and they could not. Luke 9:38And, behold, a man of the company cried out, saying, Master, I beseech thee, look upon my son: for he is mine only child. 39And, lo, a spirit takes him, and he suddenly cries out; and it tears (convulses) him that he foams again, and bruising him hardly departs from him. Remember, I had not began deconverting during this time. And even now, just a month after realizing there are no such things as devil spirits, I still cried while reading these verses before copying them into this post. This bulls hit doctrine from the bible is evil and very harmful.

I don't see you putting me down in your posts. I think the anchor that helps me sleep now is being thankful for what I have, especially my family.

For a while, I had been reading and hearing from different sources the shocking belief that Paul's epistles were heretical because they contradicted what Jesus taught in the gospel. I thought this was because these people did not understand the doctrine of the mystery which was hidden in God until it was revealed to Paul and since Jesus was not God, he could not have taught it before his death. Therefore Paul, by revelation from Jesus Christ, was able to teach who we are and what we have in Christ because the resurrection and ascension of Jesus to the right hand of God had since occurred. "Truth" is all so subjective.

Thanks cman for the post. I don't believe that God is always showing everything always. That there are so many denominations teaching totally different things on many different topics is a sign of mass confusion when it comes to understanding God. As for the flesh (meaning the sin nature in everyone) being weak and fearful, I guess it's true if one believes it exists.

You make a good point. There are words of wisdom in the bible amongst the many harmful concepts it proclaims. Some who have deconverted continue to read the bible from a fictional viewpoint and look for what lessons might be hidden in the myths. I'm not at that place though. It's a beautiful quote you shared. Biblically, it would be refuted by Jeremiah 17:9: "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked:" (See also Rom 3:10-18 and Gal 5:19-21) It's a terrible thing to teach children how wicked they are because of having a sin nature. There seems to be little or nothing written in the bible about the goodness of people apart from God being in their lives. We know this is not true! Are humans perfect - no. But it is not because of an "original sin" that was passed on to us because of a mythical Adam and Eve story in Genesis. I think Dyer's quote about the soul directing you in the right direction is wise when you believe in an inherit worth in all people and a desire to see good manifested in your life.

Maybe that's what Christianity is.

The weird and disconcerting thing about deconverting is realizing that one was never born again in the first place. So what was going on then all those years when I believed I was a Christian? The speaking in tongues - it was always the same sounds unless I purposefully "moved my lips" differently as in an excellor session. The love of the word - it was genuine partly because I chose not to focus on the parts that were disturbing or didn't make sense and partly because of the positive parts about love, peace, joy, hope, etc. The fellowship of like-minded people - it was wonderful like it would be for any group which shared the same beliefs or interests. What about the times I believed God did answer my prayers or blessed me - would they have happened even if I didn't believe in God at the time? When each surgery on my grandson was successful, was it solely because of the skilled doctors and nurses? Or when I got a much-needed job, was it solely because I happened to be the best candidate? When my mother, heavily medicated because of her final days of lung cancer, stopped having hallucinations or nightmares during the night so she no longer needed to be restrained, was it solely because I was there holding her hand? For these situations and all the others, they very well could have happened without God's intervention. Good things and bad things happen in life to everyone - believer or non-believer; a fact that has nothing to do with believing God makes his sun to rise on the evil and on the good and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. I'm aware of the testimonies of others who believe miracles have happened in their lives, and I am not going to deny they were indeed miracles. I speak only about my life. I also know of verses that contradict my way of thinking as well as condemn them, but they're not holding water for me anymore. However, for those who are hanging onto their Christian beliefs by a thread out of fear, seeing life outside of that religious paradigm can help them let go of that fear and those beliefs.

That's what I kept hearing when I would ask Christians about the trinity. "Farther Along" - sang it all the time in fellowships. Encourages Christians to remain faithful, but it also discourages them from asking questions.

Another aspect of fundamentalism is the belief in the historical accuracy and inerrancy of the Bible. I'm sure vpw had a quote or slogan about this that isn't coming to mind at the moment.

I am sorry Waysider. It took me a while to finish that post, and I had forgotten in the meantime who had sent it. I'll go and edit it now. I remember you sharing about your accident on GSC, and I know it took you a while to be well enough to come back on. Welcome back - I missed your humour.

It's horrible that you had that placed on your shoulders at such a young age. I have listened to other adults share about their lives as kids and living with a deep fear of Satan, not knowing for sure if they're saved or not, being left behind when the rapture occurs, of going to hell. If whatever a parent teaches their child about God causes them to live with such fear, it is a form of child abuse. I think this is an interesting quote from the book "The Argument Against God:" It would, though, be far better if religious doctrines and systems were not taught to people until they had attained maturity. If this were the case, how many would subscribe to a religion? Without being given a predisposition through childhood indoctrination to think there might be something in one of the many and conflicting religious beliefs on offer, the likely answer would surely be: not very many."