Charity

I think this is why being around little children is so often just plain fun.

This is not a shock to me WordWolf and insinuating it might be is a bit of an ad hominem statement on your part. This thread is not about other kinds of institutions. Here is the context in which I used that quote: "I think evolving is a good choice of words especially in progressing away from Christian/religious beliefs being imposed and enforced on others. The "others" here would not only be non-religious folks but also the people within a religious institution who are required to obey its expectations, rules and regulations in order to be accepted and avoid abusive consequences. GSC has been good, especially with posts from Rocky, Penworks and others, about the rights and ways one has to stand against the control of authoritarian leaders. The reality, though, is that all churches and "spiritual" institutions have expectations, rules and regulations. Most of all, Yahweh and Christ have mandates that must be followed in order to avoid the consequence of hell (however it is defined). This is why I think atheism (which is simply a non-belief in the existence of god/gods) is not a very bad, difficult or unpleasant thing." Under this context, however, I did use a broad brush to infer that all churches and spiritual institutions have expectations, rules and regulations (I'll add beliefs as well) that result in negative consequences from them personally or from their supernatural god if they are not followed. This was ignorant on my part as I'm certainly not educated on every one of the thousands that are out there.

I think evolving is a good choice of words especially in progressing away from Christian/religious beliefs being imposed and enforced on others. The "others" here would not only be non-religious folks but also the people within a religious institution who are required to obey its expectations, rules and regulations in order to be accepted and avoid abusive consequences. GSC has been good, especially with posts from Rocky, Penworks and others, about the rights and ways one has to stand against the control of authoritarian leaders. The reality, though, is that all churches and "spiritual" institutions have expectations, rules and regulations. Most of all, Yahweh and Christ have mandates that must be followed in order to avoid the consequence of hell (however it is defined). This is why I think atheism (which is simply a non-belief in the existence of god/gods) is not a very bad, difficult or unpleasant thing.

Campbell begins the video by talking about being in Japan, a place that never heard of the Garden of Eden story. I felt some joy when I heard that because it's what I experience each time I wipe that account right out of the bible because of the depravity it saddles upon humans at the time of their birth. But he does talk throughout the video about the benefits of myths and traditions held by different cultures. Some teach the divine presence of the creator is in creation/nature itself including every human being which promotes treating both with respect. I personally see this as an improvement over the Jewish, Islamic and Christian god. Near the end, he speaks of deeply challenging rituals that traditionally have transitioned boys into responsible men and how the traditions of today are too watered down to build this sense of responsibility in our youth which is why our societies are in such a mess. I’ve only listened to the video once so if I have misrepresented Campbell’s views, please correct me. One quote I will share from within the first 5 minutes is the following: “I think what we’re looking for is a way of experiencing the world in which we are living that will open to us the Transcendent that informs it and at the same time, informs ourselves within it. That’s what people want – that’s what the soul asks for.” The definition of Transcendent being something that is “beyond or above the range of normal or merely physical human experience.” (Oxford Languages) This is where humanism differs because there is no divine or supernatural aspects to it. Can this not be enough for us to live in this world?

I have started a thread called "A Complete atheist, anti-supernatural society" in the Atheism, nontheism, skepticism: Questioning Faith sub forum if anyone wants to discuss the above.

JoyfulSoul wrote the following in the "I had a very interesting stop at HQ" thread in the "About the Way" forum: "I began as a college atheist 45 years ago. I'm long gone. Over the edge gone. Unreachable. Forever lost. If we ever enforce a complete atheist, anti-supernatural society, take me first, drag me around back and shoot me." What would such a world be like without all the supernatural beliefs in a heaven and hell be like? Or without the concept of a chosen people and a promised land? Or with the concept of humanism being our motive to love and care for one another? There are many other "Or" examples that could be given from either side of a supernatural vs atheism POV. If ad hominem attacks can be avoided, this could be an interesting discussion.

Pardon me for including my atheistic comments on this thread in response to Joyful Soul's disconcerting post about dealing with a demonic transference between LCM and himself. If there is any interest in discussion this topic, I will start a thread in the Matters of Faith forum.

Just in case someone might read "Chasity" as a misspelling of Chastity and think such a person exists on GSC (like I did at first ), I now recognize you meant me. Also, Chastity would have been an unusual, though interesting, name to give oneself .

I don't know if twi was heavily into these incredible (as in impossible to believe) "personal" encounters with Jesus and angels, but I do know that many of the people and ministries you've mentioned before have claimed the most ridiculous of them. "Seek and you shall find" can also be known as bias confirmation. Would telling you to keep a skeptical approach when looking at these unprovable claims be of any use?

The are NO SUCH THING as devil spirits. You learned about them while in twi and this explains why you thought of one when LCM looked at you with all the pride and evil that were behind those eyes of his. Being involved with the other ministries you've mentioned only cemented your belief in demons because they are steeped in teaching about them and falsely claiming to rebuke them. Christianity is a fear-based doctrine that ministries/religions feed off of and become rich from because of the hold this doctrine has on keeping people in line. If you want to be free of having to cope with such a mythical being as an evil spirit, start deconstructing from what the bible teaches about them. Begin with the whole concept of the fall of Lucifer and then go straight to the most inane story of the serpent with Adam and Eve in the garden whereby all mankind supposedly inherited an evil and sinful nature and Satan became the god of this world. I sincerely hope you do.

I was never personally involved with IHOPKC. I learned of Bickle when a couple of his books were part of a Vineyard church library I was overseeing. If you type "bickle" in the search box above, you will see my posts about them. If you want to follow up on any of them, you can do it through those threads.

I got very caught up with the Bickle sexual abuse scandal and the IHOPKC coverup and how similar it was to weirwille's and twi's. What did you know about the latter and what is twi saying about it now? There's no way I respect twi today for their lies and coverup for this man. Do they still call him "the man of God for our day and time" or just their "father in the word?"

I'm assuming that you are not finding what you want to know about revelation-and-impartation manifestations right from the bible or personally from asking God. Do you wonder why this could be? Nevertheless, if you or anyone else is able to find an author who has reliable evidence for the working of miracles, healing, faith, discerning of spirits, etc. which truly works for you as well, please be sure to share it on your thread. Thanks.

How did she convince you that you had been hypnotized other than saying you were?

If anyone has already read the post and would like the name of the video mentioned, you can PM me.

I have deleted my opening post because after listening to the whole video, it is insanity on steroids. Please PM me if you have any further comments. Thanks oldiesman.

I'm halfway through the video and so far, the title "Liberation Day!" has nothing to do with politics even though the video was made on April 2.

I have deleted this post because after listening to the whole video, it is insanity on steroids.

While listening to atheists' podcasts, I've heard it said that there are bad reasons for becoming an atheist, but I have yet to hear them identify these reasons and explain why they are bad. So, iyo, what are some of these bad reasons?

Timely post penworks considering that similar arguments are being shared openly today. Changing history allows the lessons it taught to be lost and the evil of its past to be repeated which they presently are.

I owe you an apology oldiesman. When I used the word "gaslighting" in my post to you above, I was meaning that you were questioning Marie's perception of her reality. I checked this morning and its full definition is the manipulation of someone into questioning their own perception of reality. I do not find you to have been at all manipulative in your posts. I also realize that you never said Marie was lost as I said you did in my reply to you. You actually said twice that she had lost her faith. I apologize for my mistake. I asked you for your thoughts on what you would say to Marie and you honestly gave me your answer. I do appreciate your willingness to discuss topics with me. I think Marie did have valid reasons for her doubt and her questions because of what she shared in the video, and I so identified with her confusion about God. She was showing an interest in knowing more about atheism maybe because her son had become an atheist a few years before. Your perspective was to help her find her faith again and to me that was like inviting her back into the same system of beliefs in that there are no guarantees with God's promises and no answers as to why God allowed her daughter to get schizophrenia. Your answer was to continue praying (and fasting) and wait for a response from God. (I know that was your short answer and you probably would have suggested other things as well.) The thing was that she had already been praying and waiting and it led to her having doubts and confusion. My perspective was that she needed to explore her doubts and continue asking questions. She had already realized that the story of Noah's flood could not logically be true. I learned a lot from listening to atheists because their knowledge is outside of what you will hear within Christian circles and biblical doctrine. I started doing research for myself and decided against the Christian beliefs I held about God, Jesus and the bible. At first I said I was losing my faith but in truth, I was letting go of it because of what I had learned. I would have encouraged Marie to continue looking for answers and rely on rational evidence for her beliefs instead of going back to settling with "God's ways are higher than your ways so don't question why."

I posted the latest "prophecy" called" A Final Call Before Finality Falls on the Judged" by William Brooks in the "Spirit of Prophecy" thread. While reading it, the "love me or else" theme ran through it. I know most Christians would not see it as "love me or else" but as "For God so loved the world that he gave..." I just don't think the latter justifies the prior.

You admit scriptures promise a chance at healing with the Lord but is not guaranteed (not unlike buying a lottery ticket), and that God allows terrible things to occur without answering the biggest question of why? Unfortunately, you mistake Marie’s valid reasons to question, if not outright reject, those two ideas as her being “lost” and that the only correct response to being confused and hurt by a system of beliefs is to return to it – to continue to pray (and fast) and wait for a response from God. To me, this is not healing – it’s gaslighting dressed as spiritual concern. It treats doubt as being the problem. It shames people for thinking critically instead of just "having faith." Marie wants to live her life honestly, not in an illusion. She is not lost. She is on the right path.

What you say about God not knowing in advance what Abraham or Job would do when being tested can also apply to Adam and Eve. If God didn't know that Eve was going to be tempted/deceived by the serpent and decide to eat from the forbidden tree (and that Adam would follow suit), then that takes the heat off of him for putting man in a situation where he knew they would fail and let it happen anyway. However, god could still have simply forgiven Adam and Eve and instructed them how to do better the next time . It's the punishment/consequences he meted out for all mankind because of the actions of these two that is the most abhorrent part of this story. He gets the heat put back on for that . It's just more rational to see it as an ancient myth written by men in order to explain why there was evil, death and so many other hardships in life.

Regarding your first point about God's justice system as spoken of in a book called the bible. Was it really a supposedly loving father-figure God that came up with the punishment of hell or was hell a) the invented concept of an underworld or place of punishment as described in Greek mythology by the man Homer around the 8th or 7th century BCE b) the idea of the prophet Zoroaster (a man) who founded Zoroastrian, the religion that Influenced the children of Israel while under the Persian rule of Cyrus (a man) in the 6th century BCE c) the continued best way to compel people to obey man-made religions? As for your second point, as an atheist, I would say that I do hate the concept of "love me or else" just as I do when it comes to the abusive language used in any relationship here on earth. "You are only good because of me. You are unworthy, you get your worth from me. You don't deserve any goodness in your life, so any goodness you get is a gift from me - it is because of me. If you are harmed or I hurt you, it's your fault - you made me do it. You forced my hand. You made me hurt you and whatever you do, never ever leave me or else." (Quote by Seth Andrews)