GarthP2000

In other more earthly terms, they f***ed up. ... In the Name of the Lord, that is. Gawd, I miss Indiana, -- NOT!

The Warning has been given, and the perp recognized! ... Let see how long it takes for The Warning to really settle in. (Ie., before the perp gets booted. :-D )

Ohh the irony: <_</> ... Think about it.

... And this continues to go 'round and 'round. (((sigh))) ... You have your point of view, and I have mine. So how about we let it go at that? Peace?

My last post on this issue is what Raf said with this jewel: "A cult is a religion that means it." :dance:/> I'm _definitely_ saving that puppy. _It clearly, and honestly, shows what a 'cult' is, in one short sentence._

A list of things that _you_ say meet the 'cult' criteria. (Which may or may not.) One thing I've noticed: Speaking of critical thinking, How does repeating what you were taught in that list about 'cults' = critical thinking? ... Believe it or not, that is what I'm endeavoring to do myself. ... Critical Thinking. Which _includes_ critical thinking re: what a lot of people claim about 'cults'. ... Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, right? Anywho, just somethings to think about. Peace. ... Really, this time. ... (I have _got_ to learn self-discipline. :blush: )

... and you want to take a wager how many _that_ would be? :wink2:/> You don't mind if I borrow this quote of yours, do you Raf? I even gave you credit. Too good not to use.

"the main theme is about "deviant" beliefs ie, beliefs that deviate from norms - eg, deviate from Christian norms" ... and that's one way where the 'cult' term fails. ... 'Deviant'? ... By whose definition? ... That is _not_ religiously based? ... As that which is legally protected by law? (1st Amendment) ... Ie., _Prove it_. ... The term 'deviant' is as subjective as hell. How many religious beliefs, both fringe AND mainstream, are regarded as deviant (in some form or fashion) by another religion or group? ... "from Christian norms" ??? And if they're not Christian? They're a 'cult' then? ... Don't you 'anti-cult experts' ever think these things through?? Somebody once asked me "You just don't like the cult term, do you?" ... Duhh, no. ... Can you see why? <_< "abusive fundamentalist Christian church" Now _there's_ a good one.

Direct hit, that one!

How's this? ... YOU'RE GONNA BUR** --Wait a minute. Just kidding. Lemme try again. :-) But seriously, let's just agree to disagree. You have your opinion. I have my opinion. And that is about as close that we're gonna get, Ok? Peace, and I'm serious about that.

Basically from my own observations and thinking. But then again, I never said I was an expert, did I? But I do expect common sense and consistency, plus a scientific-like basis that isn't as loaded as the 'mind control' it talks about. Plus where terms like 'mind control' and 'cult' isn't selectively applied in a controlling-like manner; Ie., "You were in a cult, and you cannot decide to leave on your own.", stuff like that. Largely, you're right. I'm not an 'expert', and I'd dare say neither are you. But IMNSHO, there are some significant holes in their argument; enough to cause doubt. Maybe not enough for you, but enough for me. Ie., I think this field is based more on opinion than many people realize. Like for example, people who determine what a 'cult' is based on their religious beliefs, ... which really should have no bearing on the psychological field of 'mind control', hhmmm? And how many psychological experts themselves challenge the 'mind control' concept, hhmmm? Sorry, but I don't think that the field, and in its _infancy_, is solid enough to totally trust yet. Ie., it still needs debugging. ... Again, my opinion. Clear as mud yet?

"I do know it's no way to live unless you can delude yourself into believing that compliance is the answer." THAT I agree with! :B) Okay, Now I'm gone. ... Cheers!

How's this? When certain people accept instructions that a church/group/*CULT* :-) gives, with _them_ it isn't called 'brainwashing', because it is the kind of instruction that _they_ chose to accept. (And they _did_ chose to accept it, coercion and all even.) When _they_ chose not to accept it / chose to throw it away, _then_ it became 'brainwashing'. To them. ... This happens all the time; be it with fringe 'cults' or mainstream churches, and anywhere in between. ... The cult term _used_ to be a (more or less) neutral term. It now has become a matter of opinion; personal, highly-charged emotional, _loaded_ opinion. Why can't you accept the fact that at one time in your life _you_ chose to believe those stupid and strange beliefs, and at a later time in your life _you_ rightfully saw them as stupid. ... _You_ were devoted to them. _You_ were excited about them. Now you are no longer. Simple as that. ... Take responsibility for what you chose to believe. And for what you chose to throw away. Now, does that absolve any and all blame from Wierwille and Co. _NO_! They are the ones to BLAME. For all the abuse. ... Note the difference. We accepted TWI beliefs. Strange, stupid, weird, loaded with conspiracies, etc., etc. And coupled with "You are going to suffer at the hands of GOD/Satan if you do not comply." like threats. ... Ok, there was coercion. That I'll accept. That did happen. ... So did similar coercion happen in more mainstream yet fundamentalist churches. ... Yet, many of us got out on our own. (Ok, many of us were thrown out. Much like more mainstream yet fundamentalist churches as well.) ... More evidence that fundamentalist thought = cult mentality? And yet many people left those groups on their own, as well, ... did they not? Anyway, we're going in circles, so I think I'll bow out. ... _Believe_ what you will. Peace!

((Years and years later)) Wow! ... Geer is still alive?! :blink:

You didn't read what I said, have you? That's not what I said at all. ... Haven't drunk your coffee yet? |_|P ... ;-) "I still believe that teaching critical thinking skills as part of public education would help a lot of this." Bingo! ... :-D

"His parents paid to have him deprogrammed in November 1984" -- And you still wonder why people like me still rail on against 'the science of mind control'. ... Deprogramming? You haven't gotten beyond that failed (and often illegal) tactic? Are you serious? And what deception did that entail, hhmmm? Rocky, you _believe_ you were brainwashed, 'cause a book says you were? No proof. No proven science. Just a book telling that you were, and that's good enough for you? ... Look at what I said to Wordwolf about his point re politics being dead on. Tell me, which political party is the one that is the 'cult', hhmmm? ... Republicans? ... Democrats? (I think I can make a pretty good guess what your opinion would be. ) Bolshevik, "What does law have to do with the scientific method? It's Law. Religion and science often bow to it." -- No they don't, nor even should they always. ... So what's your point? "Religion is in the mind. Just a facade, a tool." -- True that.

"Is brainwashing under regulation? Any group that forms could be inspected for that?" A-n-n-d-d who will be entrusted to do that, ... hhmmm? What scientific method do you use to determine 'brainwashing'? What 'brainwashing' is? What _proper_ doctrine determines this? How is it 'rightly divided'? ... You see the problem here? And how about this possibility? Religions = cults Think about it. ;-) Wordwolf, what you said about politics is _dead on_. (y) (y)

Hhmmm, I wonder if Fat Albert was secretly used as a mind control device. ... "Hey! Hey! Hey!"

And that's the risk you take ...

Power For Abundant Peas!

Does being banned = censorship? :-\

Gotta fill out the green card tho'. ... JUST KIDDING! :-D

"If it's true, what will he do, now that he's denounced "the law of believing"?" Ummm, I thought that John Lynn & CES abandoned 'the Law of Believing'. And some of you still begrudge Lynn for his 'Doctrine of Error'? ... Really? ... Holy Martindale Batman! ... ... Is Doctrine really that important? ... Think before replying to that question please. :-\

Hiya Zbrick, Thanks for the info. How well 'grounded in the Word' Susan may be, I don't know. But she did seem to be grounded in a good amount of common sense, and I think that she is long gone from that ooutfit by now. :-) ... I will always have good memories of her. Thanks for the info! Cheers, Garth P.

"It's dead, Jim!" Cheers, Garth P.