Mandii

Hi Rocky and thank you for your warm thoughts...:-) hey it might just might hit near the freezing mark here soon!! Hi (((Wacky)))...that must have been some year but glad the guy in your area had the integrity to do something about it..had to have been rough for you though until the situation was dealt with though. edited because of not being fully caffeinated yet and incapable of typing complete sentences under that condition ;-)

Thank you, everyone for your supportive and caring words.....it means a lot to me. ((((((((everybody)))))))))))))

(((Rascal))) So good to see you and read your posts hun. To any who read my posts, I must confess I am a chicken poop. Seriously. I have read every abuse or hurt story here, my heart has gone out to people, and yet all I have done is allude to my own experiences but never the full story. Unfortunately (like many others) there is more than one 'story', but it is the one that caused most damage to my life at the time and for the years following. Why have I held back? Because in sharing the story that has hurt a person, the person relives all the feelings that they felt then. Then it is doubly aggravated by going public with it. Seriously. It is a hard thing to do, very hard and I have always admired those who have come forward and spoke up and cringed when someone has attacked the truth of their words and belittled them. That stinks when that happens. But you know what? It doesn't matter if nothing bad has happened to you or anything bad to the point of what some people have experienced. It doesn't change what has happened to those who have suffered and it doesn't change what happened or didn't happen to you. It is good if someone didn't have a bad experience but that doesn't alleviate or changed the damage done. It doesn't balance out or justify the existence of TWI or any other organization that has the same results among people. To me, the thinking SHOULD BE is that it should have NEVER happen to one person nevertheless a myriad of people and if understood correctly, the causes and people responsible should have be removed so that it never happened again. This goes for TWI, the Roman Catholic Church and any other religious front that house and protected those that abused. Attacking people's memories and the accuracy of it is a form of self denial. It is also a cop out. No one can tell another what they really remember or don't remember. That is a bunch of hoooowha. It is a self serving blanket statement to remain in a state of bliss, ignorant to the plight of others and exactly what someone is involved with. It is my contention, that abuse, any kind of abuse, sexual, mental, emotionally or physically does NOT happen in a vacuum, it takes all kinds of players and a belief system that not only promotes it but protects the predator. It consists of the predators, those who support the predator(s) and help to cover their actions, those who join in with the predator, the victims who can be shamed and threatened to remain silent or diposed of and those who honestly don't know what is going on and help form the normal appearance of the group/family and those who choose to remain ignorant even after being told of the alleged abuse. **** It was the end of my WOW year 1981. I had signed up for the WOW VET program in Knoxville Tenn which city was going to house the World's Fair. Something bad happened to me the night before the morning we left for the ROA for our WOW homecoming and I am not saying what. Got to the ROA in a bad state of mind because of it. Anyway, it was hard finding jobs and housing in Knoxville. Most landlords wanted their houses kept open until the crowds arrived for the Fair because they could charge mega amounts of money for rent. We were also put up in a house bascially outside the city where walking was impossible to get anywhere and cars were needed. One family did not have ONE single car between them which made house and job hunting hard but you know...if you believe, you received so when my family and I pulled away from the group home where we stayed having just signed a rental contract, I watched the family with no car take to the lawn chairs to sleep outside, because they didn't believe....so they could not sleep in doors until they got place to rent. I felt bad and scared, knowing we had just lucked out that day and if we hadn't signed for a rental, we would be sleeping outside or in the one car we had. I guess sleeping outside is supposed to help one's believing..doesn't matter if a person has asthma (like me) and the night air can set off an attack or that it was a stoopid decision to put a family together in an area that needed at least one car.....no it was them and their unbelief.... My WOW VET family consisted of two males and two females including myself. The leader was a corps grad, the other lady was pretty cool but then there was something seriously wrong with the other guy. I was still early twenties and knew something was wrong...we all did, but you know you just can't come out and say it...confession yeilds telling it the way it is and that wasn't permitted... Anyway, to let you know why I say there was something wrong..he couldn't hold a normal conversation about every day life, he never ever mentioned the "WORD" and he seemed incapable of doing every day responsibilities that a person does w/o thinking about without a lot of guidance and would say often, in public..."I feel like an airplane." Seriously, that may sound funny, but as a young adult it was embarrassing and scary,not having the knowledge or pratical life experience to handle such a situation. If it happened today, I would probably say..."That's nice dear, just don't take off on me." But in TWI, appearances was everything. When I was going to witness to a guy in the grocery store with whom I was having a conversation, this WOW VET brother of mine came up and very weirdly said he felt like an airplane. The guy I was speaking to said something like, "That's nice" and walked away. During a WOW VET meeting in our house, this bro of mine walked into the room, banged his head on the wall and announced that he was an airplane. The look on the other WOW VET faces were priceless as it showed what they really thought. In addition to this, the guy liked to play dumb. He acted like he had no idea what he was doing. Some reading this may say, "Well, Mandii, maybe he didn't." Then what the hell was he doing on the field, how the heck did he slip by WOW and WOW VET counseling, not once but twice????? hmmmmm?????????????????? Why in God's name would TWI allow someone so unstable to be put out on the field, where there is much stress with other young adults who are not equipped to handle such matters? So anyway, this bro of mine had a hand problem. He was always and always copping a feel from me. As long as my back was turned, this rotten, dirty sneaky bastard would sneak up behind me and either grab my butt or reach around and grab my breast, oftentimes both. If I was cooking, gathering laundry, cleaning or otherwise engaged in an activity, this bastard would do his thing. Say something and he stated he felt like an airplane (too bad he wasn't hijacked to Cuba) or that he just wanted to get along with me and understand me. The slicky slimey bastard knew what he was doing and knew how to get away with it. No. It wasn't my imagination. Everyone saw it. My coordinator said if it was him doing it, he was sure I wouldn't mind!!!!!!!!!!!!! I was speechless...Yeah every woman is a whore...buddy coord. bro of mine. Are You reading this? Recognize yourself or me? Let me say one thing NOW that I didn't say then. ***** YOU. Thank You. My WOW VET sister was cool. She told me she didn't know how I could stand the pressure of worrying about this nutjob sneaking up behind me and touching me at his own pleasure. She said she was sure she couldn't bear up under it. I had gone to locking my bedroom door and bathroom door to remain safe from this idiot. Of course I got scolded and chided for being fearful for locking the doors, but locking them I continued to do so. My WOW VET sister took a leader role and helped me to bring it to the wife of the corps guy who ran the area. My sister verified and validated my story. Bless her big heart and may God bless her where ever she is now. The wife spoke to the husband and the corps husband called the house and spoke with the coordinator of my family. Of course I heard about it in a family meeting about opening the can of worms. In any dysfunctional set up...silence is paramount and for some reason (which is obvious) there is MORE shame put on the person who talks and exposes the dirty little secrets than than the amount of shame place on the person doing the wrong. Being told to put up with crap and abuse and remain silent to that the ministry be not blamed is just a controling mechanism to keep the dysfunction going, no matter which way you slice the cake, pie or pizza. In all fairness, I do believe the guy running the area came over and did a little talk about how to properly treat his sisters in Christ but for those that 'know and see', you're just gonna love the final edict (tongue in cheek) which was...I needed to learn how to love and this nutjob on the field with me needed to be loved. How's that for manipulation? Yeah...the problem was he needed love and I needed to learn how to love, give...I didn't know how to give. I gave up a good job in a banking institution to go WOW and then turned around and dedicated two more years of my life to this stinking WOW VET program, was not getting enough food, (seriously) but I didn't know how to love and give which made this moron have roman hands and fingers. Okay. You see, this guy was a pathological liar in addition to having many problems which caused him to function lower than a teenager's level. He was NOT mentally retarded. He told everyone that he was in Viet Nam and that he had suffered battle fatigue syndrome and when he returned home, his whole family turned on him and placed him in a mental institution. He ran away from that mental institution and got witnessed to and believers ever since have put him up and let him live with them so that he could get his life together with the "WORD." They even let him do PFAL promos with this story...how great TWI is, how PFAL helped his battle syndrome and I just kept my mouth closed knowing he was a big, fat, juicy liar playing them for all he could get from them. LOL, afterall, he just needed to be "loved." Well, it is very hard to have a non functioning adult around all the time, especially when one isn't trained for dealing with such. This bro of mine would scream out in the night and my family coordinator would go running to my bro's bedroom and cast out the spirits that were holding the guy down in his bed unable to move. Tensions grew and grew a lot. One day my family coordinator and sis brought home a hitch hiker who stayed the night. A few minutes around my nutjob bro, the hitch hiker guy took me aside and warned me that this bro of mine was a nutjob about to explode, that he was a time bomb. I boo hooed him not because I didn't believe him but because you know...give no offense to the ministry. I got very sick on the field. I had a bad case of bronchitis. I was able to stay in one Saturday day and evening because I was ill. My family coordinator from what I remember was riding the bro hard...I can't really say it was unjustified, but how much can one take? My family coord. and my sis went out witnessng for the night and left the bro to do the grocery shopping and wouldn't let bro beg out with any excuses why he was incapable of doing it. A WOW from my previous WOW year who had also gone WOW VET came to visit me...already this was Oct. My bro came home from the grocery store bytching and moaning cause he had to do it all by himself. He was angry with the family coord. but decided to take it out on me. What a shock. I was sitting on the floor wheezing and coughing, along with my friend cause we didn't have any furniture. I tried to ignore my bro..downplay it and he wouldn't stop. I told him that he was angry with the coord. and not me...and that he should take it to him and deal with him...and not take it out on me. He came flying into the living room. He towered over me while I was sitting on the floor and yelled if I was going to shut up with my 'negatives.' I was confused and said so. He yelled it again. I am not one to back down from a fight, usually when challenged like that, so I said no. He raised his hand and hit me in the face, hard (but not hard enough to leave a mark) with his hand and a brown paper bag from the groceries. I immediately jumped to my feet (dont laugh...okay you can laugh at me) and started to rebuke him in the name of Jesus Christ. Man, you should have seen the way this lunatic eye's gleamed with hatred for me. The sucker pushed me halfway across the room. I was surprised at his strength. My friend, bless her heart as well (no offense, but the women out on the field with me seemed to have more honesty and integrity and guts than the men out there with us) jumped up inbetween us and faced him to protect me. I immediately sprang to the phone and called the area leadership and bro got on the phone and started with his vunerable puppy dog act of "I try to understand Mandii." I sat down and prayed and asked God what was going to happen and asked Him to be honest with me. I couldn't live that this anymore. The answer I got was that nothing would be done about my bro, he would get away with it. At the time I believed it was God answering me. It just could have been my own gut instincts since I knew this guy should never have been out there on the field in the first place, should not have gotten off so easily about his constantly misplaced hands... Nothing was done. Even though we sat through WOW training and VF announced at the training that to raise your hands or hit a WOW brother or sister would mean you were automatically expelled, nothing was done about this guy. I was told that he really didn't hit me. I said just because a bag was inbetween me and his hand does NOT mean he didn't hit me. I saw the look in his eyes..the bum pushed me across the room, his intent was to HURT me and if he did it once, he will do it again. Well I was told to get over it and learn to love. I called my old branch leader from where I started out, he called the area leader, and the same diagnosis. I needed to grow in love. But heck I was trying. I was trying NOT to break my comittment, idiot that I was. I wanted to be switched to a different family so I could stay and feel SAFE. NO deal.. hadda grow in love. They knew I was planning to leave. They told me I would die if I left the field. They told me, more than one leader, that the devil would kill me. See, greasespot isn't a new theory or doctrine..it's been around forever, just under different words. They said the devil would be waiting for me if I left to knock me off. My family coord. told me it was devil spirits telling me to leave. I reasoned why would I need a devil spirit to tell me this situation sucked to high heaven when I could figure that out by myself. As much as the dying threat scared me and it really did, I reasoned that being in 'the right place with my heart totally in the wrong place, I would die anyway cause the devil would still be able to get me anyway." So I figured I would go home to my parents who LOVED me and had food and die surrounded by real love. My only problem was how to get home with no money. I asked several friends from Long Island to provide me with the means. No one wanted to touch a person breaking a comittment with a ten foot pole so I decided to hitch hike. And one Saturday morning, with the barest of things..I set out knowing I had to head North. I will make this part short. Once out on the road, by myself hitch hiking, I would call my WOW sister from VA where we were assigned the previous year every night and tell her where I was. The agreement was if that I didn't check in with her the next night, she would call my family and the police so that with my last location, they would know where to look for my body at least. Nice, huh? God's word, god's greatness, god's ministry. Now for those who want to complain about hitch hiking alone, I had NO choice. My TWI friends wouldn't help me, I called religious organizations in Tenn to help me, they wouldn't but wanted to know the name of the group I was running from and I wouldn't tell them..ministry be not blamed you know. And if I asked my parents for money then moved back in with them, they would insist I give up the Way altogether and I couldn't let that happen...always faithful even when not faithful according to TWI standards..makes me wanna vomit... So I hitch hiked..got a ride as soon as I hit the expressway by a trucker...rode through Tenn. Kentucky and into Ind and Ill...okay it was north but not east ....rode through Ohio a few times going back and forth..hey I was tired, scared, afraid I was possessed....and then one time I had to flee a truck, because something happened in the middle of the night in a truck stop that was just a pull over rest stop, no lights. This was like the second day on the road and I had let myself go to sleep..stupid me...fled across a dark highway..coudln't believe how dark it was... Well anyway in Ohio....an elderly lady and her husband put me in touch with an organization called FISH. They bought me a bus ticket to Dayton and then I had to find a ride to the airport as they also let me call my sister who wired me a ticket there and who also promised mum was the word until I flew into Laguardia then bring me home to my mother and father. Once I got to the bus terminal in Dayton, I walked a bit to a Stouffer's hotel. I recalled my branch coord. and he tried to buy me a room there but back in 1981 they didn't do things like that. I needed a ride to Dayton the next morning and didn't have enough for a taxi...the hotel employees were treating me like crap and a bunch of twenty somethings went through the lobby,looked at me..and said..."Hey Tom, there's your girlfriend." Yeah, so funny I forgot to laugh. Anyway, standing again by the phones, a bunch of guys looking like doctors were talking about riding to the airport in the morning. I got my guts together and approached them saying all I wanted to do was to go home and the only thing preventing me from doing so was a ride to the airport and I would wait around as I had no place to go and no money if they would just give me a ride. I must have been a sight. The man told me to wait here and the next thing I knew, one of the employees came over to me, nice as pie this time, brought me to the kitchen to give me food and then I was offered a ride to the airport that night. I made it home. Once home I was scared beyond words, afraid I was going to die, feeling all of the world's condemnation of me for breaking a comittment, not being able to love enough. I was also comtemplating suicide. I called the area leader in Long Island who was there for me. He told me that that dying crap, the devil is going to kill me was just a last ditched effort to make me stay on the field. I had a hard time believing that as why would a MOG lie about God???????????? Silly me. Out of protocol, I had to call a certain leader at HQ....to whom I also cried, " I don't want to die." He asked me how I got home and I told him I hitched hike from Tenn to Ohio then got a plane ticket....he responded that if I was not dead yet, I shouldn't worry about it. The conversation with him turned out to be cool. If it wasn't for him and the area leader then in Long Island, I think I would have done myself in....I was hurting THAT BAD. I was THAT confused... I made light of the road trip here, but it was no picnic...I had nightmares about it for months, being stranded, looking for the next 'safe' ride...the fear...running from one truck in the middle of the night...other truckers calling the police when I made it on foot on the interstate to another truck stop, when found crying in the bathroom. And you know...TWI, even in its heyday, there was always someone who knew someone who knew someone. Well I found out that my 'bro' knew someone from his area that moved to my area. So I called her and told her all about what had happened with this guy. And she told me what I expected all along. This 'bro' of mine was never in Viet Nam. He had been in and out of mental institutions all his life. As a matter of fact, she said that one of the top leadership of TWI told the beiievers in their area to quit harboring the guy and supporting him....he couldn't survive on his own and had to live with people to care for him. And some how this idiot made it out onto the WOW field and then the WOW Vet program. But all he needed was love..that would solve his problems..all I needed was to learn how to love...would solve all his stinking mental problems. Yes, TWI used the word to control us and keep us in fear if necessary and used it to belittle us to blame the problems that arose on us...not because of their poor decisions or anything else. Because they were never to be blamed. I forgot to add that out of protocol, I had to call the area leader back in Tenn. Again, I swear before God, he told me that my family wasn't the problem, IT WAS ME. And for those who wondered, I sent money to that family to cover the costs my leaving gave them the first month. When the money for the deposit and all was return, something I had chipped in for, and had bought the bedding for us girls, none of my share was returned to me. For years afterwards I walked away secretly condeming myself over this. It is hard to convey that to someone....and it is hard to post this as I felt the shame all over again...this is not something I think about often...usually rarely....but still, it's a battle to realize that the shame goes to those who treated lives so callously and not on those who were used and abused and mistreated. [This message was edited by Mandii on January 19, 2004 at 11:08.]

My heart broke for you all who have suffered through TWI control and manipulation...I am truly sorry for what you have gone through. Did TWI use its perverted doctrines to control/manipulate? Most certainly. Think about it. If you want that is. Think about their slogans and how their one (or two liners) contained a whole doctrine/teaching on what they wanted us to DO. Put God first equates anything that could stop you from giving your all, financially, emotionally, mentally, physically, and every othe 'lly'....missing family weddings, getting rid of family or friends, jobs, careers, homes, jobs, pets...you name it. And I know many women in TWI who were married and had a comittment to go into the Corps or back into it residence who got pregnant and were counseled to abort because it's THE WORD THE WORD THE WORD THE WORD!! The word was what ever your leader told you it was. It's spiritual--don't question it, just acknowledge it's over you head and do what leadership tells you to do. No if's and's or but's just march ye little soldier. The Word of God is the Will of God and the only people who knew that and understands it are TWI so we will translate it for you and tell you what to do or think. Updated version..The Word Is. Yeah, makes great sense. Someone else mentioned already but that verse from Duetoronomy...about paying our vows...heard it in WOW training to the point afterwards we all bleated the greatest blah blah is for WOW's to pay their vows...translated, even though your WOW brother will hit you and keep coping a feel off you and your lousy bugger of a area coordinator lets him stay on the field...damn it...the devil gonna get you sister if you don't stay out the field and take that crap (not seeing the forest-trees prevented me from seeing the devil 'already' got me. Then how about all that devil, greasespot crap? What did those slogans insinuate??? Control? Hell yes. Dang, they tried to make us outright petried of EVEN thinking about doing anything different than what they wanted done. Can anyone think of a few others?

Happy Anniversary, Bill and Vicky and I wish you many more.

Don't have much in way of plans, but got a vase full vase of red roses :-)

Happy belated birthday, AHAT

Happy Belated Birthday, Hope.

Happy Birthday, Michael

LOL..talk about mega posts...you just became King of the Hill, or biggie posts, Mike. Okay..Mike, let's get one thing clear. I will not, under any circumstance accept any Corps person for being at blame for the corrupt teachings of the Bible found in PFAL. That was a tactic that leadership used when they got caught with their pants down around their ankles, and obviously, some feel it is still a good way to go. Also, the Corps only imitated what was done to them and what they were taught to do. I managed VP's dressing room at the heartbeat festival in New York, I believe it was back in 1977. If you think he wasn't catered to with all his fine china cups and saucers, strategically placed around his dressing room, you are dead wrong. He was treated like a King and he liked it. The fish stinks at the head, Mike, and you can't go blaming the scales because the head is stinky. (and no, I am not saying Corps grads are scaly ;-) Second, PFAL, was corrupt from its very roots and that was not and is not the fault of any Corps, or old grad/new grad. The problem is, TWI drew in many many wonderful people that only wanted to serve God and help people and make a difference, and then they turn around and treat the PFAL class and it's materials with A LOT more respect than they ever received and most certainly with more respect than TWI EVER doled out to any other Christian Church or ministry. So of course, not too many people are going to come out and say PFAL was a bootlegged, mangled copy of sensationalistic crap surrounded by a few truths here and there to make it look good. Also, as for mastering those damn colaterals, I could tell you want I got on the Advanced Class test, but that would embarrass you, as my score was extremely high...high..high I tell you. (My Hubby's scored was a fewpoints higher) Secondly, you will then say that that doesn't prove I mastered it or 'graduated from my sense knowledge to a spiritual understanding..." Besides I read those books and did Master them...and that is why I can tell you that with all the accolades that I Already admitted VP said about Jesus Christ..he at the same time, states quite emphatically that the Word of God replaces the absent Christ in our lives. Now, you won't see how he was crossing purposes there..not the Corps, not the old grads..but old VP himself. He was saying one thing and doing another. I don't know if you even agreed with that statement VP made and instead are doing a song and dance to cover it up and/or blame it on the next guy. Which is nothing but a bunch of hoowah cause it is the Lord that works on our hearts..it is the witness of the Holy Spirit that causes us to believe..not how much we have worked in our flesh to build up our five senses to graduate anywhere...to attain any more...geez... I am going to respond to some of the points in your thread..so bear bare with the mega-ness of it. Okay..Mike you said that we are to seek Him out in God's Word. You siad, "If we see Him in the Word of God, we've graduated to a spiritual sight of Him." Huh? What about those who don't have Bibles like we have, who can't afford them or can't have them due to persecution?? Are they denied a spiritual understanding of Christ? Is God limited to this Book that too many worship INSTEAD of the Lord? Doesn't it say the very creation declares the glory of God? Hasn't this conversation been held on the spot before many times?? Christians the world over have a very depth relationship with Christ and God w/o the Bible because they, for whatever reasons, can't own one. Yet, they are able to endure severe persecutions and extreme poverty and not lose faith. There is more to having a relationship with Christ and God than reading the Bible. You aksed me if I saw the quote that VP said that Jesus Christ had an active hand in the day of Pentecost. First let me point out the lunacy of having to look up quotes from a man to prove that he really believed in Christ or that he was a Christian minister. If a man was a true minister of the Lord Jesus Christ, then his ministry would just have been so over abundant in revealing and glorifying the Kings and Kings, one would not have to look very far or for long to prove that. In other words, this kind of conversation would not be happening. But Jesus Christ had more (past tense..of course..and most of the accolades that VP did were past tense...he did it...but what about NOW..that infernal question that I keep asking....why don't the masterful collaterals of PFAL have what Jesus is doing NOW?) He had more than an active hand in the day of Pentecost...Jesus did the actual outpouring of the Holy Spirit upon His church...Jesus received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit and it was Jesus who gave it out.... Acts 2:33 Now wouldn't it have been great that it was acknowledge and written by VP that not only did Jesus Christ pour out the Holy Spirit upon His church that day but He continued to work and bring increase to His church..and worked with those believers?? Are we to believe that Jesus Christ, on the day of Pentecost did a one time action then sat down and never repeated it again? We were all taught that God gives what He is...holy and spirit..does the Bible saying it was Jesus doing the outpouring and giving contradict that? Does Jesus continue to give out the gift that was promised by God? It doesn't say He hasn't stopped..yet this was not in those collaterals, no matter how many times they are read. I Corin 12:4...there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.... verse 5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.... verse 6..And there are diversities of operations, but the same God... These verses are not saying it is the same God in all three verses..but the Holy Spirit...Lord who is Jesus Christ and God. Jesus Christ does have an active role in His church in the here and now and this one verse tells us one function.... back to Acts.... Acts 2:47......And the Lord added to the church daily...yes that is Jesus... Acts 5:14 And the believers were the more added to the Lord... He was/is gathering His people TO Him Acts Acts 11:21 And the hand of the Lord was with them;.... He was there to teach Paul the gospel..He was there to talk to good old Ananais... Eph 4:8 when He ascended up on high, He led captivity captive and gave gifts to men...Jesus Christ gave gifts to men...gifts to help His church..is the giving stopped? Are there any more apostles prophets or teachers and so forth? Why do we think then He would have stopped giving the gifts? Is it Romans or Corinithians that says it is the Lord Jesus that makes us able to stand. How does this equate with an absent Savior? It doesn't and that is why the Bible does not speak of Him as something past and something future..He is now... And yes..TWI, VP got it wrong, so wrong doctrinally. And no one else can be blamed for that, especially if they didn't know any better and bought into VP saying in the PFAL class (and as cited elsewhere) that God would teach him the word as it hadn't been known since the first century church. So in presentation or in doctrination..it was way way off... I remember that article in the Way Rag saying what is he doing up there. It was a timely article because no one knew and were always asking (and rightly so). The last and only part I will address and in the future, I won't be reading any more of your threads or responding unless we end up on someone else's thread together..but Mike..you can talk to everyone on greasespot, you can speak to my husband and my children, you could talk to my parents if they were still alive.. and all you would get from them is the side that they knew me as...mother, daughter, wife, friend...but you would not get me nor would you have a relationship with me. You would just have to come to me to have that relationship. The same with Jesus Christ. We go to Him. [This message was edited by Mandii on April 10, 2003 at 16:01.]

*smiles* Thank you, mj, I am glad that you were able to see my heart and that it touched yours.

*scratches head and looks confused* I will try to answer, Rafael, as best as I can. I think VP presented his view of what he thought our relationship should be with Christ. I maintained that VP did not teach a living, dynamic relationship with Christ. On the other thread, Mike answered, if I understood him correctly, that VP did present/teach such and then Mike went into how we have a relationship with Christ by taking His place to the world and that is how we get to know him, by representing Him to others. I responded that I did not believe that to be an example of a real relationship with Christ and why I thought that. So yes, to what you thought you have been reading.

Mike, you said... The post Pentecost relationship God designed for us is NOT a flesh relationship but a spiritual one. Who said that the pre pentecostal relationship was a flesh relationship? Where does anyone get the right to say that? Jesus Christ's fleshy presence on earth does NOT make it a flesh relationship or just a thing of the flesh. That is ludicrous as Jesus Christ worked so many miracles and wonders and went beyond what our normal flesh can do in fasting for 4o days. He took the devil..not a devil spirit on..face to face. He raised the dead. He healed the sick/crippled. He gave out power to his apostles. He was working a spiritual work. (just like we would like to believe we do, but if the Lord can be condensced to being just fleshy, how much more us?) You use the scripture that we are not to know Christ after the flesh..or that we don't know him to come up with this theory and YET again, you by pass and conveniently ignore the fact that the Gospels were written well beyond and after Pentecost SO if God didn't want a mental picture of Christ in his fleshly form...and didn't want people to be able to relate to Christ in human form..guess what... THE GOSPELS WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN WRITTEN!! Jesus Christ just did not come into human form just to die but to paint a picture of the One who can't be seen...so His people could relate and understand the Holy One through the life of Jesus Christ..this is NOT to be dismissed.. And the gospels repaint that picture for everyone who did NOT have the privilege to walk the earth with Jesus at that time each and every time some one reads the gospel OR hears the gospels. But I see here a familiar TWI theme of dissing the gospels, putting them as second rate and not revelant to the believer thereby again, cutting access to Jesus, (and to understand God better because who else would Jesus be declaring?) because they may form a mental picture of Jesus??? You may think you are glorifying God by doing so, but I assure you, you are doing the opposite. This is such a grave error that TWI made and has made over and over and over again every time it gets repeated; repeated with different words and different reasonings, but STILL it is removing Christ the Lord from the individual believer. Mike you said: Knowing someone after the flesh is the normal way of knowing: looking at, talking to, and listening to, and doing things together. We don?t know how these things adapt in a spiritual understanding yet. We know how a lot of denominations have evolved an emotional tradition that involves talking to, joyous exaltations, painful emulation (I did this as a RC), and even into extreme situations like visions and stigmata. Some of these things may be psychologically and emotionally pleasant, but they?ve not gotten anyone to ?all nine all the time.? I resent you lumping talking to Christ in the same context as being hysterical and receiving stigmatas. For those who don't know..some type of stigmata is like having your hands bleed where supposedly the nails of Christ is thought to have been by some. To lump that in with stigmata, which happens on such a small percent is a great scare tactic to make people FEAR speaking to Jesus or praising Him. Again a TWI tactic of fear.....talk to Jesus and you too can end up possessed. It is wrong to approach Christ this way to make people fearful or even mock those who do pray/talk to Christ cause, doncha know, it's just a matter of time before those religious suckers get possessed.....please... Mike, you said:There?s more in Corinthians. Here are the next verses: II Cor. 5: 17-20 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. The relationship we have with Jesus is one of taking his place. We get to know him by BECOMING him, in a sense, by allowing the new man inside to grow and counting the old man dead. We get the same job of representing God to the world, and reconciling them back to God. We get the same power Jesus got, the same relationship with the Father, and are joint heirs with him. We get to know him the way an actor gets to know the character they play. The actor becomes the role they portray, but only for the duration of the play. We get to do it for keeps. Once we get that down, God will give us our next instructions. First, let me assure you, if you played me in a play, no matter how pretty or exact the dark auburn wig you would have to wear was, you would not know ME or have a relationship with ME and Praise the Lord, it would not make you me.....I may think you can identify with me, or my feelings or my perspective and that ONLY at best but that would in no way shape or form qualify you to call yourself my friend or to say you had a real relationship with me, cause you wouldn't be having either, friendship or relationship. You would only have knowledge of me.and that is about it. Second, TWI's translation of that verse is to imply that Paul is saying that we are all ambassordors. But that is just TWI slant. Some people believe, that Paul, in his ministry as an apostle, and since face to face with the believers, he is asking them to reconcile (be changed) and get it together. That this was part of Paul's ministry of an apostle and IS not handed out to every tom dick and harry when born again. (Why in TWI did we think we were equal to the Apostles? Heck, we thought we were equal to the Lord Jesus Christ...) So they see Paul saying..since we (the apostles) have received this ...we (speaking for the leaders of the church --and it wouldn't be the first time Paul brought words to the gentile believers from the leaders of the church)are asking you to get your selves together Now if you remember, the ministry of reconcilation, according to TWI was something we were given at the time of our new births. So if this is true, and if this verse is saying what TWI or VP said it meant, why is Paul telling people who are already reconciled and have that sonship right to be reconciled?? Read it carefully...he is not saying to go out and reconcile those who aren't reconiled. He IS telling people to get it together. But here is one of the major bumps, errors of PFAL and VP and that is in the haughty assumption that we take the place of the absent Christ, using this verse to say we are all ambassadors with a special ministry or right to do so. We don't need the Lord because we fill His shoes in the here and now. We do not replace Christ. Christ does not need replacing. And in representing someone does not MEAN one replaces him. I represent my work. I represent my family. Ambassadors represent their countries and their leaders but in no way do they take the place of the one they represent. Therefore, they best be conducting themselves quite well because there will be much to answer for to the one they represent. Even if one wants to stay with the TWI definition of this section of scripture, it is STILL a far leap of logic...an awfully long stretch to take ambassador to mean fully taking someone's place and taking on all the glory and responsibilty of the one they replaced...two different words with two differents meanings and they are not interchangeable....replace represent But in TWI, we had all these people thinking that to be Christ like was to be just like him in everything to the point of replacing him. Hogwash and that is how TWI got so polluted, through the corrupt teachings that had people idolazing the 'leadership' whose Christ in them was bigger...therefore better..all works of the flesh that glorified man and not the Lord Jesus Christ or God and we all see what that turned into. TWI did not teach a real relationship with Christ. Any relationship with Christ WOULD have to be spiritual since he is not on this earth in bodily form anymore..but that does NOT mean He has to be replaced because, spiritually, He is there for His people, leading and guiding them. TWI and VP, through it doctrine and practices had us replace Christ. And consequently, VP became our High Priest...and the fact of the passing of the patriarch and shoving the mantle were all old testament ceremonies and phrases (but which practices opened people up to taking whatever the MOG said and doing what the MOG wanted done, because TWI had so exalted men to that position) that have/had no significance within the body of Christ because we have a High Priest who doesn't change, hasn't been replaced..is not a silent partner and is forevermore. Sorry, I don't want you or the lady over there, I want Christ. And these days, I certainly avoid those who actually think that they 'replace' Christ here on earth. Now, don't point out the Pope to me or good lady whoseefazit who has stigmata..we are talking about TWI and what they did to sever our relationship, a real, working relationship with Christ,that should have been borne out of love..not hidden from in fear of getting possessed or in haughtiness to think we are Little Christs... [This message was edited by Mandii on April 09, 2003 at 15:22.] [This message was edited by Mandii on April 09, 2003 at 15:30.] [This message was edited by Mandii on April 09, 2003 at 15:32.]

Mike said: The one particular topic I want to refresh is the one concerning our relationship with Jesus Christ. This is a very important topic, and I want to see it discussed more. We have a wonderful brother in Christ, and many more blessings to enjoy with him as he appears. That is the point, Mike. What about the blessings here and now with an active, involved High Priest? What part does he take in our lives, NOW? That was the point or points always missing from TWI. It was he did THAT and he will do THIS when he returns...but nothing in the middle. Do you believe VP taught we can pray to Christ? Do you believe VP taught that Christ had an active hand in the pouring of the Holy Spirit, do you believe that VP taught that Christ IS active in guiding, leading, comforting, His body, His church here on earth? If not, then there is NO relationship that VP taught that we can have with Christ in the here and now.

You know all that fancy folding of toilet paper ends..well I would settle just to hang it hung on the roll, preferably pull side out...but my family justs sit the roll on top of the holder for it. And none of us fear retribution from the spiritual realm for doing so. But I do have a strange abhorence to anything that resembles a nametag or having to sit in a circle....

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sirguessalot, *smiles* you understood me perfectly and thank you for your words.

Then I suppose the difference is in the definition of what VP meant by seeking the Lord Jesus Christ and His Lordship. I will freely admit that VP spoke a lot about Christ. Session 7..wasnt' that the 'born again session?" "I don't care how you got the baby..I just want to see the baby?" If he hadn't spoken about Jesus Christ, I know I would never have sat through a Twig fellowship OR the class, since at that time, Jesus Christ was central to me since I came into TWI believing Jesus Christ was God. Yet, in those same collaterals, VP said that the Word of God, the bible took the place of the absent Christ. Now, we can all go around the mullberry bush discussing what exactly he meant by that. I know what he meant, and it was more than a bodily absence. We didn't talk to Jesus, it was discouraged, we certainly didn't pray to Jesus, we said he was the head of the body, what what did that mean? For all intents and purposes, it had no realistic or 'practical application' in our lives in a one on one relationship with Jesus Christ. That was something I had before PFAL. It was taken away, slowly but stolen from me for fear of idolatry, sinning against God and gee, we got the Word to replace Him. Lordship is more than having a big brother example in black and white words. Yes, all the right phrases were there. All seemingly correct words as well. But when it got boiled down, Jesus Christ was put on the shelf; His words were put in another administration cause he was the crucified Jesus then, while in Paul's letters he was the glorified Christ...I am not disputing that. (but if we want to say that God's Word IS His will and he had a purpose for everything He said, where he said it and so on...let's not forget that the gospels, containing the 'crucified Jesus" was well written after many epistles and for a reason...for those after the ascension to read and know...in their time...) So while he said one thing..things that sounded correct...VP was also saying another thing. I don't believe this to be a misunderstanding on our parts, or a misprint of the publishers or anything like that,or because the old grads, new grads, blue grads or grad named Sue twisted VP's words but a deliberate covert attempt to replace OUR high priest, Jesus Christ, with VP and whomever suceeded VP at the realm of TWI. It was done slowly and methodically, so it was not noticeable and only regained once people woke up and left TWI... as one person pointed out in another thread awhile ago...in making Jesus Christ just a man, albeit a perfect man, they contradicted themselves by saying that Jesus was absent and still had God's quality of being omnipresent by stating it's Christ in you, Christ in you....in every single believer at the same time. The argument that that can be is because it is spiritual doesn't hold any water, persay, as the devil is spirit and STILL can only be in one place at one time. Only God is omnipresent... Just my opinion, somewhat on TWI's true motives in dealing with Jesus Christ.

Thank you, Mike for your response. First, let me clarify that I was not just singling you out for worshipping Paul. I personally believe that much of fundamental Protestantnism does it; for reasons they may not understand, that go deeper than they realize. But basically, my limited research and understanding traces it back to the reformation where people pulled away from anything Roman Catholic, and as they celebrated Peter being the head of the church way back when, it was then transferred to Paul. Some may wonder what's wrong with that, since many have a strong (and I am not saying it is unjustified) bias against Roman Catholisim..but it is no more honest than taking a stance against any doctrine learned in TWI, just because one learned it in TWI. You said, " Fortunately it?s hard for us to put Paul?s flesh on a pedestal since he?s 2000 years dead. We never met him." Secondly, I do strongly disagree with what you said, providing I understood you correctly, that it is impossible to worship a dead guy. I think it is more than possible since his letters are still with us. I don't know how many times I heard while in TWI, when talking about witnessing to someone, that they could be the 'next apostle Paul.' Being the next apostle Paul was something that was on people's minds, the people who were around when I got involved with TWI and everywhere I went after that. I am not saying that there is inherently anything wrong with that...it is just the natural progression where Paul's letters are more magnified over the words of Jesus in the gospels. TWI provided a breeding ground for that in separating the gospels from us in saying that they (the gospels) were not addressed to us. As being much younger then, and more of a pea brain, I was confused in that how could I share the gospel if it was not addressed to me?? TWI was built upon the implication that VP was also an apostle and at least a man of god that had been taught the word as it hadn't been known since the first century church..via revelation from God just like Paul. Also, since Paul was of the first century.......... I can say that in my mind, and for those around me while in TWI..many of us drew comparisions between Paul and VP...and I think we were supposed to...but I guess that can be considered subjective as some can/will say they never saw that. But a man can be worshipped posthumously. His life, his works, words..all can become the object of being idolized and worshipped...a bodily presence is not needed for worship... and case in point to prove one does not need a bodily presence to be found the subject of worship, I point to Jesus Christ....

Paul was taught the revelation of the gospel of Jesus Christ via revelation cause Paul wasn't taught by the Master when Jesus walked the earth. If Paul wasn't an apostle, it would not have happened that way. It doesn't mean it is greater or truer words. Peter was the first to receive revelation that the gentiles were to be accepted into the church. Not Paul. Are we sure we are not confusing how the church operated in those days and instead of realizing how Peter worked with the Jews, Paul worked with the Gentiles...and that does not promote one man's ministry over another? This could almost become like what Paul warned against, saying I am of Paul, I am of whomever as mentioned in Corinthians. Peter's last dying words concerning the most important epistles?...First of all, they were just letters in those days to people. They were not cannon, were not recognized scripture. And Peter said Paul's letters were hard to understand. When Paul wrote these letters, certifying that he was indeed an apostle and where/how he was taught (as they knew Paul did not walk with Jesus when Jesus was on earth) it was to give credibilty to his ministry to oppose those false apostles and prophets. It was NOT to make Paul THE apostle. Paul never claimed to have gotten revelation at a greater extent then those men who served the church as apostles. That is a TWI claim but not what the Bible says. Ephesians 3:5....NIV as it has now been revelaed by the Spirit to God's holy apostles and prophets... plural....not one, not Paul..but plural...and proof of that is Peter going to Cornelius, bringing bretheren with him to witness why he was going to gentiles...and preached the gospel realizing that God was NOT a respector of persons. And unlike what VP said in PFAL...Peter was not called on the carpet for water baptism BUT for preaching to the Gentiles and for entering a gentile home. When Paul speaks in his letters about receiving revelation and grace..and 'this is given unto me,' Paul was not telling people he was the super apostle, the most important apostle, but was trying to get them to turn from false apostles/prophets AND Paul was amazed and extolling the glories of God that after all Paul did in persecuting the church, God had such mercy and grace on him by allowing Paul to become what he did become in caring for the church of God. Don't confuse Paul's humility and thankfulness towards God as confirmation of him being the person who received 'the most important revelation.' Sorry, but that is so TWI in thinking...who got the most important revelation, or who wrote the most important letters....all works..glorifying flesh....

Shellon, I wondered about that word as well so I looked it up. Don't understand how it fits with the meaning of the message but... Ubiquitous....from ubique L (I guess the big L means it has a Latin origin??) Existing or being everywhere, omnipresent...The state of being ubiquitous; existing everywhere at the same time; ominipresence back to our regularly scheduled posts...

A lady goes to her priest one day and tells him, "Father, I have a problem. I have two female parrots, but they only know how to say one thing." "What do they say?" the priest inquired. They say, "Hi, we're hookers! Do you want to have some fun?" "That's obscene!" the priest exclaimed. Then he thought for a moment. "You know," he said, "I may have a solution to your problem. I have two male talking parrots, which I have taught to pray and read the Bible. Bring your two parrots over to my house, and we'll put them in the cage with Frank and Bob. My parrots can teach your parrots to praise and worship, and your parrots are sure to stop saying that phrase in no time." "Thank you," the woman responded, "this may very well be the solution." The next day, she brought her female parrots to the priest's house. As he ushered her in, she saw that his two male parrots were inside their cage holding rosary beads and praying. Impressed, she walked over and placed her parrots in with them. After a few minutes, the female parrots cried out in unison: "Hi, we're hookers! Do you want to have some fun?" There was stunned silence. Shocked, one male parrot looked over at the other male parrot and exclaimed, "Put the beads away, Frank. Our prayers have been answered!"

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