WordWolf

I remember someone who was sorta "stuck" rhyming in her tongue. I have no idea how that one was resolved, if it ever was. As for the same phrase, that was vpw's result as well- "Lo SHAN-ta ma laka SI-to la-SHON-ta." Always that exact phrase. From a man who admitted that he supposedly faked speaking in tongues when someone genuinely tried to help him. Supposedly, he recited Scripture in Greek and they didn't recognize it. Mind you, it's likely he made up that entire story- but it shows he was WILLING to fake SIT long before he met us.

For the record, technically, I'm not closed to the idea that someone, somewhere, is actually Speaking In Tongues, the real thing. I'm confident that everything I've seen in any group, ex-twi or not, all supposedly speaking in tongues, are nothing of the kind, and the real thing would appear VERY different. (Freed of the nonsense concept that they'd have a roomful of people speaking "tongues of angels", there would be actual foreign languages spoken.) Mind you, I'd be more than a little skeptical based on how completely I was snowed before. As to how "speaking in tongues" and "interpretation" and "prophecy" can be used to bind a group together, we've discussed this before. Any sociologist could certainly explain it if they'd seen the results, and it doesn't take a degree holder to do so, either. The actual act we saw/did in twi/ex-twi groups are fake- able by actors, even by acting students. Therefore, con-men can certainly fake "the worship manifestations" as we were taught them. It's also possible to set up situations where someone fakes them, is told they're doing the real thing, and the results are the person fakes them convinced they're doing the real thing. The results appear identical to what we all saw all the time. (Yes, there's an obvious reason for that.) On a practical level, it's completely possible to design a cult where people are told they will speak in tongues, and get them to do something that resembles what we did in every measurable way. (Yes, there's an obvious reason for that.) On a doctrinal level, the Bible only has ONE VERSE that's used to suggest SIT would be incomprehensible- and nowadays that gets me VERY suspicious that verse is being misused. In this case, it is. It's in a list of verses with ridiculous levels of hyperbole- speaking with tongues "of angels" is in the same category as literally moving mountains with your faith, and generosity to the point of handing over all your possessions including your body. It was never meant to be LITERAL that there were people speaking "tongues of angels." If they exist, they are not mentioned elsewhere, so they're not our concern if they DO exist. There's plenty of human languages, whether current or extinct. Mind you, I changed my position due to 2 things. Primarily, I was unable to argue against everything on this list- I was well aware the social aspects could be faked, but the supposed Biblical claims didn't hold up to scrutiny. Secondarily, when someone tried to argue FOR "speaking in tongues", they weren't able to bring any SUBSTANCE to the table. There's a saying about discussions, and HOW the person addressed the discussion said more than anything else- they neither cleared anything up, nor came in with anything I'd somehow overlooked. (If I'd overlooked something, that might have been different, so I checked.) So, they just attempted to fog each of the issues, and that, if anything, reinforced what I'd already concluded- my previous position was indefensible. A perfect example of how that unfolded was how I later mentioned I'd changed positions, and I'd held off making a final decision to see if the other arguer somehow had thought of anything I had not (and thus, had a sensible argument.) They angrily challenged me to come up with an example. They wanted me to come up with an example of something I had been unable to come up with previously. That was the level of logic I was dealing with, which made me feel better about my decision.

The problem with relying SOLELY on the KJV is that the version is about 500 years old, and its wording is about 500 years old. Unless you read Shakespeare for fun and understand it without footnotes, I don't recommend trying to use it for understanding. "As that" there is the part that's easy to misunderstand, since it's not a phrase in modern usage. II Thessalonians 2:1-2 NIV 2 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. II Thessalonians 2:1-2 NASB 2 Now we ask you, brothers and sisters, regarding the [a]coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2 that you not be quickly shaken from your [b]composure or be disturbed either by a spirit, or a [c]message, or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. =================================== Those verses were addressing some people's concern that "the day of the Lord" had already passed AND THEY MISSED IT. If you read the passages in a clearer version, you will be less likely to make mistakes common to people trying to decipher the KJV and end up rendering modern Bible- as if there weren't any already commercially available. You can buy some locally, you can read some online, and there's free versions for download.

I've noticed a sloppiness about this sort of thing that the internet has only multiplied. According to one author who blames the concept of the pre-Tribulation Rapture for ruining both his job and his marriage, the whole thing was invented by John Darby, who got it from Mary MacDonald's prophecy. The thing is, NEITHER of them pushed a pre-trib Rapture position. MacDonald's prophecy (I've read it) was loaded with her concerns- of which she was quite vocal- that the church WOULD have to live through the Tribulation AND WAS NOT READY FOR IT. Since there's a lot about the internet that is pro-yelling and against reading books, it doesn't surprise me that this story about them keeps rolling along.

It ate my post? Ok, I'll try again tomorrow. I don't want to redo the whole thing right now.

That's interesting. In the theater, I had the impression that was a bald cap. Then again, I saw that 4x with the cinema's giant screen. Since then it's been a lot easier to make it pass. (I went 2x and sat through 2 showings each time. My parents were amazed I was still alert and keen watching it the fourth time, but then, I was a kid at the time.) Ok, next movie.....

Next movie. "When you try to win sometimes, you lose sight of the goal." "Mr. Stamphill, you are skating on very thin ice." "Maybe your Honor, but I'd like to get to the other side." "How do you think the Yankees will do against the Redskins this year?" "The Yankees are a baseball team. The Redskins are a football team. Personally, I think the Redskins would kick the $h1t out of them."

No, let's change that last round. Mrs Doubtfire Robin Williams Dead Poets Society

Mrs Doubtfire Robin Williams Good Morning Vietnam

The twi landscape changed a great deal after the 1988-1989 split that lost 80% of the membership. Before that, the classes and meetings were comfortable because they were more organic and let people make them comfortable. And the people that grew twi were generally quality Christians. Once they were gone, there was the twi that you knew- mechanistic and controlling (a lot moreso than before.) People often got swept into twi and enjoyed their time there. The classes were billed as a big part, and talked up as critical, so people expected to go through them- and many came away with stories of what they overcame to take the classes, more like a badge of honor than a millstone around the neck. Sometimes, a member would volunteer to pay for the class fee for a new person who seemed unable to raise the money, or gave him/her a new Bible when the class started. When things are like that, getting to sessions 8-12 gets elements of excitement as well as anxiety. Nobody wants to disappoint a group making them happy, and nobody wanted to feel left out. With 4 classes ironing out hesitations, most people had no trouble beginning to, say, "speak in tongues" when it was time. Most of the remainder moved along as soon as someone running the class addressed them specifically (while everyone was speaking and nobody was looking), and a tiny handful had to be worked with afterwards. vpw himself had to be worked on afterwards like the remedial student he was, when JE Stiles taught him and spent hours working with him. That doesn't even count those who were already "speaking in tongues" before taking that class, due to being too young to take it or having to wait for an official class. So, no pressure for those people. We all WANTED to believe. We all were invited into a group of nice people who believed. They generally didn't want us to have anxiety or problems. That starts setting the stage, and sessions 8-12 finished the job.

Gremlins 2- the Next Batch Christopher Lee Star Wars Episode 3- Revenge of the Sith

Was this some version of "CAPE FEAR"? Some of that sounds like Max Cady.

Wild swing here.... "Django Unchained"?

Best Defense Eddie Murphy Beverly Hills Cop

Therefore, Superman-the Movie. I don't know about the last 2 clues, however.

Almost certainly- the phrase "you could have a change of heart", IIRC, occurs in that song and in no others.

Dot Warner, of the Warner Brothers (and Warner Sister) of the Animaniacs. In one cartoon, she recited those lines.

p.155, Born Again to Serve ""When the train came to its first stop, a man from the next compartment came to our door, saying that his master would like to meet the man of God. So we extended an invitation to the master to come to our compartment. When we had introduced ourselves, he said, 'We would like to pay our respects. It is not often we get to travel with such a man of God who blesses all the people.' He told us he was a member of central government on his way home to Allahabad. He gave Dr. Wierwille the key to that city." ====================== [Absolutely nothing in her account says anything about a man healed. It was about vpw giving a small speech at the convention, or blessing a crowd or whatever. If it was about a miraculous healing, that would have been a major point of what the man said. On a different note, I'm curious why we never saw a "key to the city" on display, when vpw displayed EVERYTHING. Someone saw a photo of vpw holding such a key, we did not. On the whole, it's not a big deal and we will probably never have the specifics. What was more important was that Mrs w completely skipped over her one chance to confirm the story of the miraculous healing. ]

Orange Book, pg-29-31. ========= "Whenever I read this record from Mark 3, it reminds me of the times I was practicing the principles of the greatness of God's Word in other countries of the world. On one occasion when I was teaching in Jubbulpore, India, a lady who had worked in a mission service for thirty years was delivered by God's power of a number of sicknesses which appeared incurable. This deliverance caused such a stir in the city of Jubbulpore the morning after the miracle occurred, that when my family and I were ready to board the train and leave Jubbulpore, hundreds of people gathered at the railroad depot. This crowd, which was composed mainly of Hindus, wanted me to lay my hands on them individually because they thought that I must have some special powers in my hands since I had laid my hands on the woman the previous day." [So, we have vpw himself praying for the woman, and she was delivered. Within 24 hours, there was a crowd looking for healing. And they were non-believers, Hindus, who all just happened to hear about this, and believed it such that they showed up in a crowd. Could have happened. Presuming he prayed and she was delivered.] "They felt that if I just laid my hands on them, they too would be delivered." [I'm unsure of Hindu beliefs in India enough to know if this is typical.] "Just before the train on which we were traveling moved out of the depot, a high-caste Hindu, whose paralyzed arm was hanging limp at his side, ran up to our railroad compartment. He said to me, "Will you pray for my arm?" However, he immediately added, "But I do not believe in your Jesus." " [Supposing this is true, there was a crowd, and the majority of the people would have been low-caste. The high-caste guy was willing to shove his way through a crowd of low-caste people, and thus being in physical contact with them, to shove through them and get to the front of the group, on the chance that this guy could help him. Forgive me, I can't picture this guy having the strength to shove through-unless he could use both arms.] "What would you have done? I asked him if he believed God would deliver him. He said, "I believe that God will heal me if you pray for me, but I do not believe in your Jesus." So again I asked him, "Do you believe God will set you free?" And he said, "I believe God will heal me, but I do not believe in your Jesus." I laid my hands on him, and I prayed that God would set him free in the name of Jesus Christ. When I finished I said to him, "Now lift your arm." He began to put it up, and suddenly he thrust up both of his arms. He leaped and shouted with tears streaming down his face. Once he had lifted his arm a little, he realized the miracle. He was totally set free. About then the train began moving, and I said, "Praise God; thank God that you were healed in the name of Jesus Christ." " [So, God was fine with this healing. And it was instant. And vpw was preaching from the back of the train. And allowed to stand there-WITH A CROWD SURROUNDING THE BACK OF THE TRAIN- while the train prepared to move. And he was allowed to be in physical contact with someone on the ground as the train is moving forward. I just don't think the trains in India are run that badly. It's too cinematic. The only thing we're missing is the train whistle and sunlight breaking out from the clouds.] "At the next stop, a man came to our compartment in the train, saying that he was representing his master who wanted to come and meet the man of God. He said his master was so-and-so, a member of Parliament in New Delhi, who was also riding on the train. The member of Parliament then came to our compartment to tell Mrs Wierwille and me that what he had seen in Jubbulpore was the most tremendous Christian event that he had ever witnessed- that a man of God would bless all God's people irrespective of whether they were Christian or Hindu. He offered us the keys to his city and said that any time we wanted to minister in India, the doors of India and the Far East would be open to us to teach the accuracy and the greatness of God's Word. " [And a guy in the train was able to see what happened completely in the back of the train, with his own eyes. And had influence in ALL OF INDIA. And gave vpw a standing invitation to come minister and teach in ALL OF INDIA. And gave him the keys to New Delhi based entirely on an incident NOT in New Delhi. And vpw remembered all this, but never followed up in India despite having an open door. This sounds scripted to me. And not scripted WELL, either. The only hitch is the existence of some photos I've never seen, which depict an incident I've never heard described well.] [For those wondering, one poster claimed he'd seen 2 photos in a crowd, and one person was pointed out as the one who was healed. That's the limit of what he knew, what was pointed out in the photos. What I find interesting was that the account here completely contradicts what he was told about the photos. It's impossible to reconcile THIS account- with the man behind the train as it was pulling out and getting healing at that moment- and a man in a crowd, where he was photographed in a crowd both before and after the healing, with no TRAIN anywhere in sight. When I asked about the difference between the photos and vpw's account of the incident- which sounded completely unrelated- he got very defensive and claimed I was calling him a liar for claiming he'd seen 2 photos at all. He's refused to post another word on the subject, and what that means is open to interpretation. Myself, I'd think someone eager to set the record straight would want to clear things up, not leave them hanging, but that's me.] [As for Mrs w's book, she mentioned vpw blessing a crowd of Hindus, and the VIP surprised a Christian man of God would pray for a crowd of Hindus like that. So, when she had a chance to clear that up, she skipped saying "the VIP saw the miraculous healing and came up to talk to us." I think her REFUSAL to make that claim says even more.]

Someone asked about vpw's claim of miraculous healings in Jubbulpore. Orange Book, pg-29-31. ========= Whenever I read this record from Mark 3, it reminds me of the times I was practicing the principles of the greatness of God's Word in other countries of the world. On one occasion when I was teaching in Jubbulpore, India, a lady who had worked in a mission service for thirty years was delivered by God's power of a number of sicknesses which appeared incurable. This deliverance caused such a stir in the city of Jubbulpore the morning after the miracle occurred, that when my family and I were ready to board the train and leave Jubbulpore, hundreds of people gathered at the railroad depot. This crowd, which was composed mainly of Hindus, wanted me to lay my hands on them individually because they thought that I must have some special powers in my hands since I had laid my hands on the woman the previous day. They felt that if I just laid my hands on them, they too would be delivered. Just before the train on which we were travelling moved out of the depot, a high-caste Hindu, whose paralyzed arm was hanging limp at his side, ran up to our railroad compartment. He said to me, "Will you pray for my arm?" However, he immediately added, "But I do not believe in your Jesus." What would you have done? I asked him if he believed God would deliver him. He said, "I believe that God will heal me if you pray for me, but I do not believe in your Jesus." So again I asked him, "Do you believe God will set you free?" And he said, "I believe God will heal me, but I do not believe in your Jesus." I laid my hands on him, and I prayed that God would set him free in the name of Jesus Christ. When I finished I said to him, "Now lift your arm." He began to put it up, and suddenly he thrust up both of his arms. He leaped and shouted with tears streaming down his face. Once he had lifted his arm a little, he realized the miracle. He was totally set free. About then the train began moving, and I said, "Praise God; thank God that you were healed in the name of Jesus Christ." At the next stop, a man came to our compartment in the train, saying that he was representing his master who wanted to come and meet the man of God. He said his master was so-and-so, a member of Parliament in New Delhi, who was also riding on the train. The member of Parliament then came to our compartment to tell Mrs Wierwille and me that what he had seen in Jubbulpore was the most tremendous Christian event that he had ever witnessed- that a man of God would bless all God's people irrespective of whether they were Christian or Hindu. He offered us the keys to his city and said that any time we wanted to minister in India, the doors of India and the Far East would be open to us to teach the accuracy and the greatness of God's Word. ===============

Some people think unadorned truth needs some lies to liven it up, to make it more interesting. Psychologically-healthy people disagree.

He also demeaned people he made up SOLELY to demean. The church elders he supposedly mouthed-off to insolently as soon as he began his first pastorate, to begin with. He couldn't even keep straight where he was when they had their blow-out. According to vpw, the church elders gave him advice before his first sermon- he could teach on anything he wanted, so long as he didn't mention money. Naturally, he spent the next FOUR WEEKLY SERMONS focused on tithing. After this MONTH had passed, they came over to talk to him about it. He said that he never mentioned money, only tithing, and that they should leave him alone and he'd run the parish the way he thought it should be run. They responded by leaving him alone and dropping the subject. If that whole story doesn't ring false, I don't know why. Another time, he made up an old man he'd known when he'd grown up, whom he visited in the man's retirement, in a retirement home paid for by the community. He said he'd gone to the man's son and complained both about him letting the man end up there, and not visiting him and bringing him things. He said the man's son replied by saying "Well, he's old- let him die." The most interesting part of this story, to me, was how it grew WHILE HE WAS TELLING IT. At the beginning, this was a single visit to the man. By the end, he was visiting the man regularly and bringing him chewing tobacco. vpw didn't need real people to demean. He was perfectly capable of making up imaginary characters for the sole purpose of demeaning them- and he did so. Naturally, they didn't complain.

"Has interacted with a variety of actors and famous faces in Hollywood, comedy, and theater, including Earle Hyman, Bruce Willis, Steven Wright, Taimok, Robin Williams, Michael Keaton, Charles Grodin, Paul Rodriguez, and Marlo Thomas." (I've spoken to MK, CG and MT on the phone. I've met Steven Wright during Comic Relief, and I've met Paul Rodriguez during Latino Laughing Matters. I stood directly behind Bruce Willis at a register line in a bookstore but failed to recognize him traveling incognito. I stood behind Robin Williams at a register line in a bookstore and struck up a very short conversation with him (he was wearing a beard but I knew his voice anywhere. Yes, I got an autograph.) Earle Hyman I got into a conversation with, and he gave me some very interesting advice about why a person should or should not decide to work in show business. Taimok I met after a few of us went down the wrong block in Manhattan and wandered across a film shoot. After the scene was done, he came over and was willing to sign autographs- I not only had a pen, but a clipboard full of blank paper, which I let him use to sign for everybody else as well. "Was a consultant for Katherine Ramsland when she wrote her book "PIercing the Darkness." (To get background for her book, she explored the "vampire" subculture, including the Live Action Role Playing game, "Vampire-The Masquerade." She attended a single session, in which she participated. Only the Gamemaster knew who she was, and he'd written up a character for her. I had interacted with her in-game, and had offered some advice, also in-game. Her book mentioned that the episode included characters worried of a possible bomb onsite- a legitimate concern since my character had disarmed a bomb on a different site in the preceding episode and sweated at the prospect of trying to repeat his previous success. No, this current bomb was just a rumor. ) I've left out my run-in with Downtown Julie Brown. I was about to walk into a McDonald's when she burst through the door, a bag of food in either hand, and ran straight into a waiting taxi at the curb. Another second slower and it WOULD have been a run-in, as she would have crashed into me. I THINK that's all the celebrities I've had a brush with, at least the ones anyone in the US would recognize. I'm sure that, with a little tweaking, this list could sound like I hobnob regularly with A-Listers and B-Listers.

I just see/hear Dot reciting the lines.

Thanks. Despite Mike's imaginations to the contrary, I really don't spend a lot of time on vpw and his sins and delusions (except when someone like Mike comes back and tries to pretend they didn't exist and don't matter.) So, I was blanking for a moment about his (vpw's) alcohol of choice.