WordWolf

Ok, let's see, I Kings 8:50. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_...ter=8&version=9 "And forgive thy people that have sinned against thee, and all their transgressions wherein they have transgressed against thee, and give them compassion before them who carried them captive, that they may have compassion on them:" Captive? To whom is this verse addressed? Per vpw (Bullinger), if the explanation is not in the verse right where it is written, we look at the CONTEXT. (See the link for the entire chapter.) According to the chapter, this is not addressed to men (nor women), but to GOD, in regards to when His people mess up and reject Him, and end up in servitude to other nations. (Go ahead, read the entire chapter, or, if you're in a hurry, from I Kings 8:44 onward.) So, this verse is completely inapplicable to this discussion, as is made clear by using the techniques advocated by vpw. Any adherent to vpw or admirer of his should consider this obvious. ==== Moving on.... I see we have another person who has arrived and appointed himself the arbiter for how long a person should take to heal from wrongs done to them. I'm a little curious. Some people are DEAD because of wrongs done to them by vpw and lcm. Some others were ALMOST killed or ALMOST died as a result of wrongs done by vpw and lcm. What is the statute of limitations of considering that a wrong, and what is the source for this figure? Furthermore, "forgive and forget" the evils done by vpw. I notice no verse was supplied for man (or woman) to do this. Evildoers who DO NOT REPENT are to be treated as dangerous and we're to act accordingly. We are definitely not to FORGET. We are to be careful not to fall into their traps. I know Paul never "forgot" the evils done by others. II Timothy 4:14 "Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works." That's a record IN God's Word ("God has a purpose for everything He says"), where an evil-doer is named so Christians could be wary of him. That record is nearly 2000 years old. Apparently, this "forgetting" thing was NOT God's Will on this subject. "Forgetting" is a BAD thing, when it comes to evil-doers. Pray for them? Yes. Try to forgive? Yes-admitting this is a hard thing to ask. Forget? NO. People need to be warned. There are STILL people who arrive here, who were kicked out and hurt, and still trying to make sense of their suffering. They find some answers when they read up and see the evils that were done to them and DISGUISED as other things. vpw did evil to others in the setting up of "his" class, and the preparation of "his" materials. vpw did greater evil to specific Christians in "his" ministry, who were fooled into thinking all the excellent material "he" (others) produced meant he had a special connection to God-an image he originated and cultivated. vpw used this image and position to do specific acts of evil to specific Christians, and said it was God's Will. Repent? A few people claim that vpw's decades of plagiarism, rape, and other things were all wiped away by one claim as he was close to death, that he wished he'd tried harder not to sin. ("I wish I'd been the man I'd known myself to be.") Of course, a VAGUE and NONSPECIFIC claim like that is nothing at all like an admission of guilt to FELONIES and devastating the lives of Christians he assumed responsibility for. At best, it's a cheap imitation of such a claim; at worst, it's a sign he STILL cared nothing for the ruined lives- only that he wished HE'D been BETTER. (That is, "Yeah, it's a shame I ruined all those lives. If I'd been a better man, this wouldn't have ever happened. Too bad I wasn't a better man...")

I agree with MOST of this. What I disagree with was the idea that vpw's "work" was "the best of HIS ability." It's been documented that "vpw's" work was the best that he was able to plagiarize from the work of OTHERS. Bullinger wrote on death, and his stuff was rewritten into "Are the Dead Alive Now?" BG Leonard taught a class, and 3 months after vpw sat thru the entire class, vpw taught the EXACT same class with HIS name on it. JE Stiles wrote a book, and vpw rewrote it into the 1st edition of the White Book. Later versions of PFAL (originally taught as "Receiving the Holy Spirit Today" by vpw, later renamed by him) and the White Book itself ("Receiving the Holy Spirit Today") incorporated the work of OTHER Christians as well, in a cut-and-paste fashion. (Mostly Bullinger in BOTH cases.) "vpw's" later books- "Jesus Christ Our Passover" and "Jesus Christ Our Promised Seed" were written by the research dept, and vpw added an introduction and the words "BY Victor Paul Wierwille" to the cover. All of this explains why "his" "writing style" changes RADICALLY from book to book, and has NO common markers from book to book. He didn't "write" them at all. He either adapted them or they were ghost-written by the staff. None of this is news. We've been discussing it for years here.

For those who missed it, this should sound familiar. A) I don't care about the PEOPLE that were hurt in God's name by the evil actions of those people who supposedly were leaders in God's name and claimed to make God known to us. B) What I DO care about is the Bible, which I read everyday. Mechanical knowledge of the Bible isn't a bad thing, but it is only "spiritual kindergarten". Until you care for God's people, you're not ready for primetime. vpw himself quoted that people don't care what you know, until they know that you care. I Corinthians says that knowledge puffs up, but God's Love BUILDS up.

Except the Gospels, the record OF our Lord? Well, that leaves out the Gospels-they weren't written "aforetime". Then why did God bother having it written? I thought "ALL" of the Bible was good. Is this a case of "I do not know its value-therefore it must have none"? Oh, but that leaves out so, so much.... Why limit your fellow Christians to only what vpw knew at the time-or ANY Christian, for that matter? And are you currently teaching the occult-type doctrine that you can compel God to act by a supposed "LAW" of believing which has been thoroughly (and throughly) discredited? That WAS in twi, after all, and it's a doctrine that harmed a LOT of people.

The patchwork monster, like some modern-day Frankenstein, slowly gave up its unnatural imitation of life, rotting away a piece at a time.

Assault is a felony. Are you going on the record advocating a crime? That can be called "conspiracy" or "inciting", you know. I believe lcm should be addressed within the boundaries of the law.... if for no other reason, to "Submit to every ordinance of man for man's sake." Law-abiding citizens don't take the law into their own hands. Besides, the confrontation thing was something lcm himself advocated. Shall we sink to his level to confront his evil deeds? Frankly, he needs more praying for than yelling at. If he lets God heal his heart, he'll be at the first step for offering reparations for ruining lives.

I noticed you selectively skipped around my post. It said: When vpw was around, there WERE allegations. There were far fewer than their might have been, BECAUSE vpw had a brilliant network in place to cover his tracks-from before the crime through cleanup after the crime. Did you know that women who have a past history of abuse are easier victims for later abuse? Did you know that all corps applicants were required to submit autobiographies before admission? Did you know that women who listed a past history of abuse were targeted FOR abuse by vpw? News to you NOW, right? Did you know that vpw taught IN PRIVATE that adultery and fornication were all right "if you were able to take it", and told lcm he'd need to "loosen up sexually"? Did you know that vpw arranged to have a private place on grounds-besides his home which was right there, and his office which was right there- which he called an "office" but was outfitted like a bedroom? Did you know that there was a small network of people who were in on this claim of his, who would separate out a "sheep from the herd" for him-including women who would tell other women that vpw needed to see them, and the result was them innocently heading to his "private office", where he was wearing a bathrobe and often nothing else? Where he offered them alcohol, and often it was spiked with something? Did you know that vpw arranged for people to check on his victims within the first few hours after their "encounter", to "counsel" them that it wasn't rape and not to press charges? Did you know that women who looked like they were likely to press charges were given the bum's rush off-grounds, and everyone was told she was possessed and to avoid all contact with her? Did you know that's happened a lot? Did you know that a number of people here either WERE vpw's PERSONAL victims, or his ATTEMPTED victims who slipped away, or know some of his personal victims, or saw the process of the coverup in progress, but didn't put the pieces together until years later? Did you know that some of the ex-leaders have admitted to having been told that by vpw, and having believed it to the point of acting on it, and knowing others who did? Did you know that lcm's main crime apart from vpw was in getting CAUGHT and not being as concealing as vpw? Did you know lcm learned it all FROM vpw? Did you know that-before the internet-it was easy for someone who's been victimized to just vanish with no notice? Did you know that-SINCE the dawn of the internet-it's been a LOT easier to put all the pieces together and form a COMPLETE picture of events behind the scenes? Did you really know all of this? If not, I recommend you do some reading and catch up. Around here, all of this is OLD NEWS.

I do, as do many of us. HOWEVER, that is NOT a requirement for posting here. I direct you to a brief introduction. http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?showtopic=7913 aka, "Welcome to the Greasespot Cafe!" I also direct you to Greasespot 101, http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?showforum=12 The difference between "allegations" and "crimes", of course, is whether the speaker wants to pretend they didn't happen or not. vpw committed many crimes, and had a BRILLIANT network in place to cover his tracks-from BEFORE the crime thru cleanup AFTER the crime. It's shocking when one first starts hearing of this, but there's FAR too many eyewitness accounts from total strangers from all over the place, to REASONABLY dismiss them. Of course, you can decide to believe whatever you want. I originally thought the claims where exaggerated or false, myself- but I DID spend the time to review them, and changed my mind fairly quickly. (I'm a fast reader.)

I get the idea that this "donation" thing is a voluntary thing, for those who feel so inclined. Of course, if you want to send 10% of your income, you're free to do that, I'm sure.

["Handled", in this case, meaning "ignored the people on staff whenever they disagreed with my premise that the magazine articles were edited with a Divine Hand guiding it."]

Standard policy was: anyone seeming psychiatrically unstable was sent straight home. (See the thread "vp and me in wonderland" for 2 examples.) As for nobody going postal, that depends. T*m M blew his own brains own with a pistol because lcm was doing his wife. Does that count as postal enough? To my thinking, 'yes', but you may disagree.

[WordWolf in brackets and boldface.]

Hello. Your English is fine. :)

Some people would be surprised how many of us would agree with you about this. Except maybe the "no hard feelings" part. :) In other news, hello. I take it you've already read the greeting and Greasespot 101, so I've nothing useful to add beyond them at the moment. The others will be along with their own greetings.

He may not have wanted the auditorium named after him, but I think he thought of twi AS Wierwillites without calling them that. Think about it. The PFAL class started with another man's class with vpw's name slapped on it. Why? So it could be about him. The White Book originally mentioned another (anonymous) man taught Wierwille-who vpw clearly remembered was JE Stiles, and later editions edit any mention of another man out- despite Stiles' book being the original White Book with vpw's name slapped on it. Why? So it could be about him. He went to Haight-Ashbury personally and put forth he had a unique knowledge of the Bible, and convinced some of them to be his advertising arm. Great Christians acted on both coasts, and people believed when they saw THEM in action. Once the Great Christians brought the numbers in, vpw kicked them out, and ordered all authority to come FROM him, and all money to go TO him. Why? So it could be about him. Oh, and bring in the money. Less than 1% of twi income ever went out ANYPLACE to benefit people. And of that, most of it was to cover twi mistakes- like paying for rehab for injured Christians. vpw lacked ANY formal training in programs and experience in programs, but wasted no time setting up programs-all of which were designed to make a profit. Which, of course, they did. Anyone who entered those programs-which were written or verbal "gentlemen's" agreements-was required to live up to their agreements, but vpw reserved the option of kicking them out if they failed to grovel sufficiently. He exercised this option at least twice-once with the Zero Corps and once which is documented in "VP and Me." (That incident apparently was what lcm drew on when he demanded HIS loyalty oath.) Anybody who was around when he was in one of his GOOD moods heard him call everybody in twi-or whichever portion was present- "MY KIDS". That one's even in TW:LiL. He also called himself "THE TEACHER" years before PFAL was stolen from Leonard. He continued this IN PFAL. Why? So it could be about him. So, would vpw want the label? I think he'd HATE the label. Did he want the blind obedience implicit in such a label, without the label? I think that's what he wanted ALL ALONG, and acted accordingly. Of course, this is my opinion, but it appears to fit the facts. Does it fit his PUBLIC IMAGE? NO. That was of him being an "aw shucks" homespun humble teacher who just happened to have the most special revelation since the First Century Christians stopped writing. However, the discrepancy between Wierwille the Public Image and Wierwille the Man He Was When He Thought No One Was Looking...is massive. Correct.Some of us, however, feel that the deliberate deceptions were wrong, and the felonies they covered were worse, and feel vpw was thus not worthy to be considered a leader at ANY level. That's true of you but not of SOME people. To challenge anything in pfal, to challenge vpw's doctrine, is tantamount to challenging the Bible, since it challenges their understanding OF the Bible, and their own self-image as a Bible-believer. Now, everyone ELSE can have civil discussions on content and meaning, but those with a hair-trigger can derail a nice conversation. Well, with you it is not a problem. (Or if it is, it's a little problem and you function as a normal citizen.) With a few, this IS a problem.

Actually, what usually bugs them is attacking them for NOT believing him, or attacking their organizations, or accusing those who expose his evil hidden deeds of having a motive BEYOND 'exposing his evil hidden deeds'. I can tell the difference between internal consistency and hypocrisy,and I'm not retuning my detectors to match YOUR priorities. I'll answer your question, and I'll do it simply, so anyone who WANTS to know the answer CAN understand the answer. Using the term "apologist", IN AND OF ITSELF, is not antagonistic. HOWEVER, depending on who'se using it, sometimes it's a statement of fact, a word used in a single post (good thing) and sometimes it's in indicator that the poster is beginning to go on the warpath and pick fights with other posters (bad thing). Now, you've got a track record of picking fights with posters and derailing threads. So, what might be an innocent question from ONE poster is often a LOADED question from you. That's why TL BEGAN with a disclaimer, so that she expressed a desire NOT to pick a fight. Your response? You picked a fight. TL asked you not to continue, and you chose to do so anyway. THEN you called everyone who disagreed with you "mockers and criticizers", which WAS meant as an inflammatory phrase, then accused OTHERS of making it personal. That's got all the internal integrity of "I don't understand why all you peckerwoods, rednecks, and hayseeds gotta take everything so personal! You're almost as touchy as the niggers, jigaboos, spooks and spearchuckers-they get angry every time I post! They must object to the substance of my argument." Well, we agree on that, at any rate. BTW, we WERE talking about this when the thread started...

Many thanks for both links.

Not ironic to most people. See, Neither CM nor WW ever claimed they didn't believe the Bible. Neither claimed they dismissed all information that vpw said just because vpw said it. We rejected the stance that "BECAUSE vpw said it, it is automatically gospel." So, we examine each thing individually. If it stands on its own merits, it stands. If it falls on its own merits, it falls. The things that stand on their own merits are no guarantee that the things that failed suddenly did NOT fail, nor that unexamined items suddenly get a free pass. I don't know how much looking up one verse in the Greek counts as "Biblical research", though. As it was, I had my Ricker-Berry handy, so if YOU had asked what it had said, I would have just grabbed it and posted it, too. Did it disprove your point? Did it support your point? Whatever. We meant different things. I meant "take it off the list, but WE get credit for taking it off the list, because WE looked at it, examined it, and found it didn't belong there." So, it comes off the list, but the WHY I quibbled on.

No, score one for the "ACTUAL ERRORS" team. Mike's method is "pretend it always said that and NEVER look it up. If someone claims otherwise, rather than gather evidence, insult the person, and change the subject." It's not one for Mike because MIKE has yet to successfully refute ANYTHING. The rest of us having intelligent discourse HAVE, in both directions.

The Gordon Ricker-Berry from the Stephens Text.... II Timothy 2:15, King James Version. "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." The Stephens Text (ibid) (English lettering) "Spoudason seauton dokimon parastesai tpstheps, ergaten hanepaioxhunton, orthotomounta tov logon tes aletheias." So, the Stephens Text has "orthotomounta". I do NOT have my Nestle's handy. (I need to buy a new copy.)

Since you're no longer baiting Mark about his beliefs but ARE still baiting TL's on her beliefs, I'm curious if this is due to him being male and this being some sort of misogynistic impulse- going after the wimminfolk and leaving the men alone. If not, perhaps you can progress in your temperance to the point that you can refrain from attacking her religion at every pretext.

"OBSERVATIONAL SELECTION", or "COUNTING THE HITS AND IGNORING THE MISSES." Every morning, thousands upon thousands of mothers send their kids to school. Every morning, thousands upon thousands of mothers worry something terrible will happen to their kids. Every afternoon, thousands upon thousands of mothers greet their children as they return home from school. The fear in the hearts of those mothers did precisely NOTHING to those children. Two guys, the same age. One has a mother who's terrified that something will happen to him, all through his childhood. The other has a mother who's concerned, but never obsessed over the whole concept. One of them is struck by a car and nearly killed. His mother was NOT the one who worried-her kid was fine. What was the difference? Cars are not "fear-seeking-missiles." Anecdotes don't "prove" a supposed universal "LAW". However, they can DISprove something doesn't ALWAYS work....