WordWolf

Seeing things differently is always accepted on the GSC. Keep in mind that some people will give it a shot to convince you that another position might have more merit. Then again, some people will just open fire because you disagree. It's one of the prices we pay in having open discussion here. The goal many of us target is to "disagree without being disagreeable." Some of us succeed in this. Me, I'm a Christian who rarely strikes sparks with the pagans, wiccans and things that go bump in the night. We disagree rather civilly. (Mostly.) We respect that the other has the right to their opinion, and don't waste the energy or bile necessary to go hammer and tongs over the nature of God or whatever. Please also note that most of us see the difference between an opinion held and politely expressed, and a post that insists that everyone else is WRONG! Plus, at some point, EVERYBODY disagrees. And yet, somehow, life goes on.....

And you were incorrect. I figured that if you're trying to train LEADERS-as their CLAIM was despite an absence of anyone with experience running or TAKING any leadership training- then you're training the leader to first A) work autonomously A Leader who second-guesses HIMSELF all the time is double-minded and unstable in all his ways. (The reality was that they WANTED leaders to be anything BUT autonomous-which we can see from the RESULTS-inculcation of blind loyalty.) and then secondarily B) lead others A leader must, by definition, LEAD. That means he is expected to make decisions, and is REQUIRED to do so. (Of course, in twi, all decisions had to be notarized by a higher-up, or you might be in trouble. Then again, if they agreed with you, "God will cover.") So, a Christian is trained to lead in a program, then leaves the program. He is now able to use the skills he learned (presuming he learned any) as an asset to the body of Christ. It is HIS DISCRETION as to where that is done-as he seeks God's guidance directly, and makes decisions accordingly. ======= Of course, there ARE orders where Christians make lifelong commitments to go where they are told to go, serve where they are told to serve, and leave when they are told to leave. Those are referred to by many names, among them Holy Orders, the Priesthood, and so on. Now, THOSE people don't just make ONE decision to enter one program and now they're the property of the organization. (No matter WHAT you were told.) They receive training, and counseling. They are questioned as to their commitment and reasoning. They receive more training, and are REQUIRED to meditate upon, and consider deeply, over and over, the consequences of their decision. It is FAR better for the organization to lose 90% of their candidates than for them to place unstable, corrupt people in all their offices. Those that decide to go ahead swear their oaths, and leave modern society, in a sense. THEY'VE sworn oaths of poverty and chastity and stuff I don't know about because I've never sworn their oaths. Now, THEY signed up for a lifetime serving their organization. That's very different from, say, being a leader who runs a twig for 5 years, then coordinates the next 4 classes, then smooths things over for the new Limb leader, then steps back and helps younger hands learn the basic skills of leading, then returns to run a twig for a few years again, then "semi-retires" and remains available to advise other, newer leaders. Now, did he serve a lifetime? Yes. Was it in Christian service? Yes. Was it where the ministry needed him? Yes. Is WD going to say "You've made a good point?" No. But to most people, the difference, once pointed out, should be obvious.

Well, since the Marines were what vpw pretended to base the Way Corps on, it would be a fair comparison... Fine. I'll go into the Army. Specifically, the West Point Military Academy. It's a college, with degrees like all accredited colleges. It's four years, with college classes and military stuff. Right in the applications and literature, VERY PROMINENTLY, the REQUIREMENTS are laid out SPECIFICALLY. One, once you are in attendance, you've a committment to all 4 years. Two, at the end of your training, you're committed to 4 years service in the Army, where you start at the rank of Second Lieutenant. Three, If you washed out of the academy, you are STILL committed to 4 years service in the Army, where you start at the rank of Sergeant. Obligations and requirements are crystal-clear. That's how SERIOUS commitments are made. Big difference between "training to serve God a lifetime and to lead a Twig" and "required to lead a Twig the rest of your life", which is how YOUR version would read. Please be consistent.

Igotout: "What Skyrider is alluding to is that the Way Corps 'commitment' we originally made became a 'we own you and you WILL do what we say for the rest of your lives' commitment. And if you didn't like it then you were dropped from the Corps if not kicked out all together from TWI. That's pure BS. Originally back when larger groups of us were going into the Corps by the hundreds (I was in the 7th, I believe Sky was in the 9th), it was not implied that there would be this "dog soldier leash" around your life after you graduated. Only much later did this become specifically stated. Heck, I remember LCM stating one evening at a Corps meeting in Emporia... 'Not all of you can become branch leaders. Many of you need to go out and get jobs and careers and go to college.' Well, some of us did. Later we were resented for it. Yes it was implied that once Corps always Corps. No prob. Think Marine Corps. You have had the training and served your country and now you serve in society as a better man for it. It was more promoted as another program like WOW or other such ministry commitments. A Wow Vet was not under this short leash and control, for example, to move every 3 years and such. Yet he is still a Wow Vet. I still have one of the old Corps Vet tee shirts which I would bet they discontinued in latter years. A lifetime of Christian service? No prob...Still doing the best I can. A lifetime of volunteer enslavement on a dog's leash? No way, Rosie!"

Shazdancer: "I was committed to God long before I went into the Corps. I signed up for Recognized Family Corps because I wanted the in-depth knowledge that the Corps was supposedly being taught, before my husband and I were to join Staff. We were accepted into the Corps on that basis. I still have a Recognized Corps certificate to prove it. Long after our in-res year, a couple of Corps leaders tried to explain to me that I had made a lifetime committment to the Corps program-to submit to evaluations, and go to any and all Corps meetings that were required. Silly me for requiring them to honor their agreement with me. I am just as committed to doing good and respecting God as I ever was, I just don't express it in the same way that I did while in TWI."

Skyrider, on the above... "Manipulation-mongers! They waited a couple months and then, slam-dunk our commitment level when we are behind CLOSED DOORS and surrounded by PEER PRESSURE. What a bunch of low-life tactics!..." "By the early 80s...the term 'cop out' had gained legs...and had evolved to mean... any corps person or corps grad who quit taking assignments. Twi changed the parameters. Now, it was a LIFETIME COMMITMENT to stand with twi. And that labelling is still in effect to this day."

GrouchoMarxJr weighed in on this one: "...And another thing that bugged the &$*# out of me while in residence, were their bait and switch tactics. When I signed up, I made a FOUR YEAR commitment. That was it! It was optional to take assignments upon graduation...at least, that's what they said in WRITING! A couple of months into the training, at Emporia, they tell us all that we have made a LIFETIME commitment to the corps!... and if we don't 'understand THAT'...then we are 'spiritually out to lunch'. I sat there listening to this crap, muttering under my breath that I only committed for 4 years, getting angrier by the moment as everybody just sat there with a glazed look on their faces saying 'yup, yup'..not me! I regret not packing my stuff up and splitting right then and there!"

Catcup said, concerning her time in the 6th corps, "When I signed up for The Way Corps, TWI represented to me that I would be training for upper leadership responsibilities that I had not yet held, and that when I graduated, I would hold an accredited degree. TWI misrepresented The Way Corps program specifically to those of us who went into the 6th Corps, revealing only AFTER we were already in residence, that we would NOT have a recognized accredited degree, and that they were training us to be twig leaders."

I'm unfamiliar with any written contract in the Greek for the way corps, and if you're referencing a "lifetime of service" from the Bible, you'd better supply the CHAPTER AND VERSE. I found the word "lifetime" in 2 places in the KJV New Testament, and neither referred to service of any kind. Very few people-in fact, I think it was possibly a maximum of 3- ever said that they thought the commitment to go into the way corps- which they PAID FOR- translated into a lifetime of servitude, moving when twi said 'move', living where twi said 'live', and generally hopping whenever twi said 'frog'. A lifetime serving God? Yes. Having the option of taking assignments? Yes. Lifelong servitude to the organization? No. Maybe assisting in various capacities thru the years, but not the slavery lcm espoused. There was NO written contract as to that. And if there HAD been, it would have been ridiculous to think that someday, people wouldn't get tired of being a puppet on a string and want autonomy.

I DO find that some people look to me for advice and guidance. I think it works because I DEMAND they have other sources as well, so I'm only one of many. twi encouraged/encourages an unhealthy dependence on one direction, so any weakness is spread down to the whole group. Generally, people who look to me for insight don't post here. (Occasionally, they'll read a page of a thread in disbelief, but otherwise they don't read here, either.)

Yes, it is true. If you were willing to accept the ostracism, the vicious lies spread about you by total strangers, the "threats" to your family of demons killing them ("which member of your family do you want to die next?" as one leader was quoted as saying) and leap out from under God's protection into a strange alien world where all other Christians were idiots- then there was ALWAYS the door.

CORRECT! T-Rex did "Get it On(Bang a Gong)". It was covered by Power Station in the 80s (1/2 of Duran Duran), with heavy work on the electric guitars. However, the closing line is only in the original ("but meanwhile, I'm stiiiilll thinking...")

I'd be skeptical about twi selling the copyrights- rather than LICENSING them or retaining them- without some documentation. I don't think they'd avoid taking the money- I think they'd grant a LICENSE to their copywritten material rather than hand it all over. Then again, maybe all the competent businessmen have been run off as well. :)

Congratulations. Me, I left as soon as I spotted that not being the case as well. In my case, that was 1989. And I think the powers-that-be might have been happy to see me go just on the basis of my OWN bucking of authority. :) Of course, I say neither YOUR experience nor MINE speaks for EVERYONE's experience. Some other people questioned or bucked authority, and they were kicked out-either off-grounds, out of the corps, or were made pariahs-even by vpw. I'm thankful that wasn't me, and for you, I'm thankful it wasn't you.

The 1970s, I believe, is the original, which is the one I'm quoting. "Well you're built like a car You've got a hub-cap diamond-star-halo. You're built like a car, oh, yeah." "Meanwhile, I'm stiiiiilll thinking"

I agree on you on this particular. It should have been brought up while he was alive (like some other things were, but they were buried.) Furthermore, it's not a BIG deal. We've discussed a lot of the BIG deals over the past several years. I was just curious about this one, and did a search, and opened a discussion. As you can see, not every discussion here is about something earth-shaking. :) Frankly, I think the discussion that spun off this one is more interesting. BTW, I recommend the "pinned" "sticky" thread "Welcome to the Greasespot Cafe" for basic advice to new arrivals, and the forum "Greasespot 101" as basic information for new arrivals. Enjoy your stay, and feel free to jump into the discussions where you want. If I could ask anything, it would be to not be one of the posters who arrives here to "set us all straight" and presume they're the ONLY ones who really "get it." We're already over our quota on those. :)

Actually, that she brought it up first makes a considerable difference. She didn't seize on something YOU said and run with it. After all, what are the odds? I mean, she still could have been messing with you, but it's less likely under this scenario.

"Stone walls do not a prison make, nor iron bars a cage."- Richard Lovelace.

=== Oh, BTW, Oakspear, thought you'd find this interesting. In police procedures, if a criminal, in the course of being captured, is fatally shot and is dying, I've read that it is in the procedures to inform the criminal that he's dying, so that, if he wants to clear his conscience before meeting his Maker, he can do so. It certainly might make it easier to question him. People, when they see death approaching, often get very philosophical, and look back on the good and ill they performed in life. You might find this short-story interesting along those lines. I read it in high school. It's called "the Contents of the Dead Man's Pockets". http://www.is.wayne.edu/mnissani/2030/Deadman.htm

Hm. Interesting. Of course, you can compare this to Pope John Paul II, a man who was roundly condemned BY vpw. Karol Wojtyla was a man who sought to do his best for God and to bless God's people. Was he perfect? No. Was his doctrine perfect? No. However, if he had his life to do over again, there are fairly few improvements he could have made to perform as a "better" man. Even in his dying moments, he sought to bless God's people. (He raised his hand in benediction to the window-as if praying for the world or the people outside, then lowered his hand, and then he "fell asleep.") NON-Catholics (like myself) were sorry to see his passage, and expressed their sorrow all around the world. In short, Karol Wojtyla was the man he knew himself to be.

Greetings, freelady! Many of us who took that class still think it's a good idea to learn how to understand the Bible. If you're interested in making your "best get better", then some of us would be ready and willing to help you make improvements on the pfal class as taught. Heck-that was my approach when I was IN twi, so I've always thought that was a good approach.

Ok, a new song... "Meanwhile, I'm stiiiiilll thinking"

Bingo.