WordWolf

Just to make sure everyone can play along, I recently said this, to make absolutely sure we all were clear on EXACTLY was being discussed... Clear enough to everyone, right? I said Mike's premise in 2002 was that the pfal books were derived by divine dictation, and NOT by exposure to Bullinger, Stiles, Kenyon, etc. God dictated to them, then God dictated to vpw. Then I asked if Mike was "going to categorically deny you ever claimed exactly that?" Mike's response was as follows: Therefore, this is Mike saying "yes, I deny ever saying that." He claims his position never changed, and thus "your perception of my waffling is wrong." My claim was that Mike STARTED with the "divine dictation" claim, then SWITCHED to ANOTHER claim. The SWITCH, specifically, is what Mike refers to as the "waffling". Sure would be nice if I could retrieve 1000 pages of Mike rambling in 2002.....

I agree. However, this e-mail, however well-intentioned, is incorrect. http://www.snopes.com/holidays/christmas/12days.asp

In the interests of making sure I am being absolutely clear and leaving out wiggle-room, when I posted this.... And said that Mike denied the plagiarism outright, what I'm specifically saying is that we discussed how vpw took the work of other Christians- Leonard's class, Stiles' book, Bullinger's books- and made the voluntary decision to take material from them and "write"/plagiarize books with his own name as the author. Initially (2002), Mike arrived and claimed that God gave vpw the substance of the books- that they were a collaboration between vpw and God, and no books/classes from the others were involved. Any resemblance to the contrary was due to God giving, say, Bullinger revelation, then later giving the SAME revelation to vpw, who never touched the Bullinger book, and thus, never committed the moral and legal CRIME of plagiarism. Is it starting to sound familiar, Mike? Or are you going to categorically deny you ever claimed exactly that? ========= The "moving the goalposts" thing and rewriting history has come up a number of times. For example, I once quibbled with Tom Strange as to the placement of 2 words in Tom's synopses of Mike's posts. (Which would be welcome right about now, BTW.) I wanted the synopsis he posted to be as perfect as possible, so I questioned Tom as to 2 words. Mike had NEVER questioned their placement. IMMEDIATELY Mike wove an elaborate tale about how he'd left that unchallenged for months "to give Tom enough rope to hang himself." As it turns out, I later agreed with Tom's usage once Tom ANSWERED MY QUESTION. Mike dropped the non-issue that, supposedly, hung Tom. Another time, I was fond of quoting an error in one of vpw's books, which I referred to as "the Amazing Morphin' Man!" In one chapter, Paul speaks of a man he knew years ago, and then the chapter suddenly applies the description to Paul himself. This lead to an interesting discussion in the Doctrinal forum (which Mike did NOT participate in.) Someone claimed that there exist historical documents from Church Fathers (documents which Mike normally would eschew, since Mike said The Word was LOST in the First Century, and these writers wrote AFTER the First Century AD) that suggest Paul WAS that man. If one is to "read what's written" (a PFAL tool), then the Church Father was wrong, and it was "private interpretation", which means that vpw's book had an error, which means it's not Scripture. If the Church Father was right, then the PFAL tool of all Scripture explaining itself in the verse right where it's written, and the disdain for the early church documents- and Mike's position that the Word was LOST to the 2nd/3rd/4th Century AD Christians- are all in ERROR. I can call it either way. However, either one disqualifies Mike's basic doctrines. Mike, of course, missed ALL the implications, saw that someone posted a rationale that might explain away the error, and now announced that he'd known all along about that church father's comment, and that this is why he never answered my claims there was an error in the chapter. It would not surprise me to see that Mike remembers the exchange completely differently. However, it's all in the forums.

Mike seems unable to have read my response. Anyone want to bet money that-if I magically produce the quotes- that he will deny he ever denied he said them?

Once, he spoke of the "incident" he had. He was at a show, and debated whether to tell the audience what had really happened. "If I tell you, you won't tell anyone else, right?" (various shouts of 'We won't tell') *looks over the audience* "Y'all are a LYING bunch of M*F*ers!" "All right, here's what really happened. All my close friends know that, before I go to bed, I like to have cookies and milk. So, one night, I had some lowfat milk, and I mixed it with some pasteurized, and when I dunked the cookie in it, it blew up in my face." He also had many observations about what happens to your life when you keep taking drugs, and some oddly funny comments about what happens when you're on fire. He faded too soon, and died too soon.

[WordWolf in boldface and brackets again.] [ Again, I say that Mike's posts fall far short of a 'canon'... Naturally, Mike missed it even posting this definition...]

If those are the "By The Way" articles that vpw paid to have printed in local newspapers, please give the dates/whatevers on the articles. I still have the SET and can retrieve one if I have the dates or whatevers.

HOOK SHOT. He claimed to have invented the hook shot. We discussed it in this thread when we discussed the Sheboygan Redskins thing. The short of it is that he claimed to have been connected to the Sheboygan Redskins, then later, the claim was that he PLAYED on their team (which he did not-the entire team roster was posted on the GSC once, and his name wasn't on it), then came claims of him inventing the hook shot. He was probably a fair player in high school, but he never even claimed to be on his college's varsity team or earned a varsity letter. Since the colleges keep records, it was smart he never made such a claim- he could have been caught lying...

[WordWolf in boldface again.] [ So, then, your only justification for saying that Jesus Christ TOLD YOU that he appointed vpw his spokesman and is VERY interested in pfal is one line vpw himself wrote in one book? This may surprise you, Mike, but one has absolutely nothing to do with the other.... ]

Sushi, I was debating whether or not to mention that it was probably a desert-jackal described in the verses, since the gray (timber) wolf wasn't indigenous to Palestine that I'm aware of.

Since Mike requested, I'll document a few things I've said that Mike has said previously. Mike 2/2/04, 12:17am. "When you see Christ in his glory he will be holding a PFAL book in his hand and teaching you from it." ("So, Mike, you weren't kidding about JC coming with a PFAL book in his hand.") Mike, 2/3/04, 7:53pm. "Totally serious. I've already seen him this way more than once." Mike 2/3/04, 5:22am "Jesus Christ appointed Dr his spokesman. Jesus Christ is VERY interested in PFAL. He told me so." Thank you all and have a nice evening! "My oldest posts are missing! Anyway, I never said it-produce my oldest posts where I said that! You can't? Then that's proof I never said it!" Just in case any of you missed that one....

[WordWolf in brackets and boldface again.] [Fine. Discuss with the management how much you will pay for the terabytes of memory your endless treatises take up to store and provide access to. Posting at GSC is STILL not a Constitutional right. And, in case anyone recognizes my comments, they've been made before, many times, by myself AND others. Naturally, Mike's continually "new" to this. Mike's exposure to information he dislikes is much like some tender young maidens whose 'cherished virtue' returns after they misplace it, no matter how frequently. Oh, and Mike, if GSC posting was the be-all and end-all of things for me, I'd have your posts all ready for re-use, from 2003 on. ]

Yes, folks, we're looking at 1977-1980 this time. Please share all memories of this time, no matter how fuzzy or "trivial". Refresher: According to twi or history, this stuff happened... 1976, the "College of Biblical Research" and the "Way Family Ranch:Camp Gunnison"s land was purchased by twi. 1977, the PFAL '77 is done live at Ball State University. 1977, Howard Allen and "Uncle" Harry Wierwille were installed as Trustees on the Board of Trustees. 1977. Studies in Abundant Living #4 was self-published. 1977, Jimmy Carter becomes US President. 1978. the LEAD Outdoor Academy land was purchased in Tinnie, New Mexico. 1978, the Camp David Accord is signed. 1979, Advanced Class '79 ran. 3-mile Island near-meltdown. Iranian students storm their US embassy in Tehran. 1980, Jesus Christ Our Passover is published.

So I don't lose it, what someone said about Old Man Wierwille, (Ernst), when I asked about whether or not he terrorized the kids... per the locals.... "Ernst was an alcoholic (like Otto and VP), 6th grade education, physically battered and abused wife Emma Rein (in NC it is spelled Rhyne) and children Otto, Harry, Lydia, Sevillia, Victor and Reuben. He supposedly had drinking buddies in Shelby County Sheriff's department who bullied the school principal (not the superintendent as VP claimed)/ algebra teacher and had him either resign or be fired by the school board. Well, poor Victor couldn't go beyond what he was taught. Of course this is 2nd and 3rd hand information/rumor."

No names, but even the ones I thought were dead wrong, of those I knew, they all at least MEANT well and TRIED to do the right thing. (With one or 2 exceptions.)

Even "the Way:Living in Love" had a pic of the "God's blessings on you-SPLASH!" run to the pond. ====== Ok, so, judging from the one-sidedness of the posts, I take it that NOBODY had an experience that was any "darker" than a stupid prank, nothing worse than "Repeat after me, 'I, state your name'..." correct? So, then, we can put this little thing to bed, then?

vpw and lcm just announced this like it was true because they said it was true. It was evidently wrong because it was inconsistent. Supposedly, "seed of the serpent" was a cheap knockoff of the new birth. You JUST SAID THAT. However, the "seed of the serpent" included people all the way back in the book of Genesis, thousands of years BEFORE the new birth. Further, there is absolutely NO verse, and NO evidence to claim that ANYONE gets a "permanent devil-spirit" at any time. That was claimed, but never demonstrated. And no matter what the class setting, all the claims of such were just a song-and-dance.

Ok. Behold the context and environment! A bunch of youngsters assembled in a program originated on a cornfield farm, by a man with no training or experience in leadership programs OR training, who indoctrinated them in his doctrine, whose motto was "you can stay as long as your money holds", who sent home anyone who was having trouble at the early signs of trouble (by shoving them on a bus, not taking them to their doorstep; and no refunds) who periodically kicked out the corps until they recomitted themselves to him. They spent a lot of time doing manual labour fixing up the grounds, or lent out to farmers to pick his crops, while vpw claimed they didn't know how to work (despite his OWN background where he avoided manual labour all his life) they were subjected to his mood-swings and changes of expectations at a moment's notice, where no right answer was correct they were assigned things like exercise and hitchhiking, and told this would help them grow plus other things-that was just off the top of my head. The context and environment? A program that some wonderful, loving people went into, that attempted to grind them into cogs in the machine. They were in a "training program" designed and run by people with only the vague notion of what a training program includes, and subject to the whims of a capricious, unstable tyrant who would tell them he loved them one day, and insult and yell at them the next. It was "designed" to advance vpw's agenda. If they actually learned anything useful, it was almost incidental. The "feeble-minded" were in charge of the program, and thus it was unable to weed them out. Go ahead and rewrite the "good old days" in your brain, but we're discussing the actual EVENTS, so we're bound to clash when we meet.

[WordWolf in boldface and brackets again.] [Doojable, since you missed the earlier discussions, this is the fallacy known as "moving the goalposts". See, you and I want the truth, so when evidence shows we are wrong, we change our minds. Mike's approach is that he wants his doctrine, so when evidence shows he is wrong, he retains his doctrine and tries to change or discredit the evidence. When the plagiarism first showed up, Mike denied it outright. When it was proved he was wrong, he wasted no time switching to saying that everybody else plagiarizes, so it's ok. When it was proved he was wrong again, he wasted no time switching to saying that God told vpw to plagiarize, so it's ok. Yes, that means the God who said "subject yourselves to every ordinance of man for man's sake" now advocated breaking those ordinances. Lately, you've seen him starting a new tack. He's manufacturing personality defects in the REAL writers to try to say it would have been wrong to obey the law and footnote properly. Since he's fond of manufacturing his points, this is hardly innovative. He's claimed Bullinger didn't write his own books-but was proven wrong, and has claimed that Leonard approved of vpw stealing his work, and so on. Of course, he's completely skipping over how the first pfal class was 100% taken from Leonard's class when he says that Leonard's material had errors. Of course, he can't actually NAME an error- he's imagining there might have been one. Truth is irrelevant to Mike. Mike only cares that reality be rewritten so that vpw was right in what he did, no matter how many lies Mike needs to get there. Mike also rewrites the exchanges he has here in his mind. After having been systematically refuted on EVERY point, from the least to the greatest, he has turned around and said that he has been getting the better of all of us in discussion and besting us all. It would be funny if this wasn't what he really thought. Oh- and he thinks that it is NOT idolatry, but perfectly healthy and normal, that he has referred to vpw-and thinks of vpw- as follows: -He was born with an overabundance of brains and brawn -He was gifted, even OVERgifted -Where he walked, the earth shook Just thought you'd like to be kept up to speed.]

We've mentioned that before, as well. His lack of character reflects on his lack of integrity, which shows he's unfit for the office of leader. Right.And so the "law of believing", and the "every woman in the kingdom belonged to the king" parts of pfal, for example, should be rejected because they're error. For those of you who think that pfal is a new Bible, according to its OWN standard, if it is imperfect in ANY place, the whole Bible falls to pieces. Naming just those 2 examples, pfal falls to pieces as a Bible. Wrong. His sins demonstrate he was unworthy to be counted a minister of God. They don't, in and of themselves, address what he taught. Of course, we've said this lots of times, so by now, this is either you failing to read what is written, or you failing to retain what is written. You have a right to your opinion. We've SHOWN it IS relevant, however.

We left out learning to string chairs....

My guess- and this is only a guess- is that he wished to return to the United States. He may have moved to a place he liked better, where he was "plugged in" to people and places better. After all, Gartmore House was a beautiful place to visit, but-as he complained in his POP paper, it was NOT their first choice and was in the middle of NOWHERE, transit-wise.

A "parachute" is what a skydiver wears to slow his fall. In business slang, a "parachute" is the retirement plan (retirement money) set aside for an executive. A "Gold Parachute" is a retirement plan that has a lot of money-a LOT of money.

[vpw COULD have given credit to all the sources he USED. All OTHER writers do it all the time. Further, if he was going to forget SOMEONE, it should NOT be the 3 writers he completely stole PFAL from in its entirety.] [No worries.We all know EXACTLY whose ears are stopped up.] See, themex, that's where you and I agree, and you and Mike DISagree. Mike believes the Bible is NOT God's Word. Mike believes the PFAL COLLATERALS are God's Word. Mike believes that Jesus is very interested in PFAL. Mike believes Jesus appointed VPW the spokesman for Jesus. Mike believes Jesus told him this. Mike has said that when Jesus Christ returns, he will be holding a copy of the Orange PFAL Book AND be TEACHING YOU from it. themex, you and Mike DISagree on those things.