WordWolf

I could not be MORE "real". "Who is going to teach us the Word"? To hear JESUS CHRIST tell it (THE man of God for our day and time), our teacher is "THE COMFORTER", aka Holy Spirit. He shall teach us "all things". (John 14:26.) If he is THE teacher, then anyone else is a footnote, a secondary consideration at the most. BTW, how is my answer "off-topic" but your question is not? The topic is about twi and the US vs "international countries". That makes your question about who's right "off topic." YOU started. I answered YOUR question and you announced answering YOUR question was "off topic." Just because you didn't LIKE my answer didn't mean it was "off-topic" nor WRONG. ======== Your entire line of questioning is based on misconceptions. So, the questions are "wrong". Who's in charge of the Christians? CHRIST. Who teaches us? THE HOLY SPIRIT. Do you need all the verses supporting this? As to "who should we follow", my answer, depending on EXACTLY what you mean is either A) JESUS CHRIST or B) NO ONE. This "following" business is what got us in trouble in the first place. I believe it was Confucius who said that a wise man does not concern himself with allegiances (loyalty, who to "follow"), but when he sees right, he ranges himself alongside it.

The real leader of God's people for our day and time? That's easy. It's JESUS CHRIST. Jesus Christ is THE man of God for our day and time. Jesus Christ is THE man of God for ALL TIME. Jesus Christ is THE spiritual leader. Jesus Christ is THE spiritual head- and anyone else claiming to be the spiritual head other than Jesus is a thief or a robber. And SHAME on you for forgetting that long enough to post this question. (For those of you non-Christians out there, I wasn't speaking for or about you-just Christians.)

Ok, here's the third draft of my timeline, with more tweaks, additions and improvements. (And mostly from publications OF TWI.) ========= Let's see. What did vpw AUTHORIZE to be revealed about himself..... victor paul wierwille was born to a large family of German descent. (Born December 31, 1916.) Each child had their own chores. Little Victor chose to neglect his chores, and would vanish for hours into the woods nearby. When he was young, he once told a minister that he wanted to be a man of God like him. Other than this statement, Little Victor showed no actual involvement in the church, no actual effort or work in the things of the church. So, this seems to suggest an interest-not in being a man of God- but in being the man the whole community turned out to see, to have their respect. As a teenager, young Vic continued to lack any qualities of a man of God. In fact, he went out of his way to earn a reputation going in the opposite direction. He was a bully, a showoff and a braggart. He did all sorts of things for attention. He was quick to start a fight or mouth off at others. He had a quick wit. One of his common ways of showing off was to tear up and down the streets of New Knoxville on his motorcycle, trying to get attention. His demonstrated talents seemed to be limited to his quick wit and his ability to play a guitar, which he showed competency in. Old Man Wierwille was preparing to pass on the family farm to young Vic, as was the family tradition. Young Vic balked at this. He'd had plans to go to college. At first, he considered a few fields-business and so on- but by this time, he had decided upon the seminary. (This was before the time he referred to as "believing the Bible as the Word of God".) Old Man Wierwille was skeptical of this, and said that young Vic, having shown lack of hard work on simple manual labour on the farm, would never make a good preacher. Young Vic convinced him he would do better with books than with sweating out in the field. Young Vic went to school for the ministry. His community thought it was some kind of joke- everyone knew he lacked the proper character. (He never overcame that impression with them.) Victor had the option to study "Bible Languages" or other subjects requiring hard study. He instead chose to study Homiletics, the "softest" option he could have learned. (He never overcame his deficiency in study in Bible languages, church history, etc.-not even to the level of an informed layman as of 2004.) Victor was married July 2, 1937(Mr was 20, Mrs was 21). He graduated with a BA from Lakeland College in 1937. Donald was born in 1940. Victor graduated Princeton Theological Seminary in 1941, to earn his Masters in Practical Theology from Princeton Theological Seminary, also in 1941. He did his "trial sermons" in 1941 in Payne, Ohio for the Evangelical and Reformed Church. According to his memorial in 1985, he started his first pastorate July 1941, and was ordained July 29, 1941. (According to his account in TW:LIL, his first pastorate began in 1944 in Van Wert, Ohio, and continued until 1957.) Victor entered his first pastorate and wasted little time becoming a bully and a control freak AGAIN. He himself claims he started his job by immediately doing whatever the elders told him not to do- even though it hampered his ability to do his job properly. According to him, they confronted him on this, he mouthed off at them, and they just let him go about his business, and the local church prospered as a direct result of him. He was known for building a fairly interesting sermon, and getting people involved, including the youths. (This was STILL before the time when he claimed he believed the Bible was the Word of God.) He said the following year, (1942) he slowly became discouraged and was searching. He was still the man he had been, which is to say he was prideful, arrogant, boastful, liked attention, and viewed the clergy as a PROFESSION and not a holy calling. (He could have been just as "called" as an accountant or actuary, say.) During 1942, he claimed he was ready to give up being a minister. About a year later (Payne, 1942, August), he meets Rosal1nd R1nker. This woman fixed a great deal of attention on him, and had a forceful personality. She spent some time with him alone. It was of this time that he later claimed he asked forgiveness of God. He also credits her with DOGGING HIM "on the Bible being the Word of God", and she "got me STARTED on the right track". which, until this time, he hadn't believed, not even in all his years of school. During 1942, he claimed he was ready to give up being a minister in August AND September. One month later (September 1942), an event happened that he later showed a habit of re-writing. As Victor told God he was getting ready to quit (again), He claimed that God spoke to him and said He (God) would teach him (Victor) His Word (God's Word) like it had not been known since the 1st century, if he (Victor) would teach it to others. (This is the famous 1942 promise.) Victor of course lacked the education in church history to contextualize this claim-since it was inaccurate as stated. This implies that this was a made-up story, or it came from a god lacking knowledge in history. Victor later added a second part to his story- a snowstorm. He said that he required PROOF of God, and asked God to let him see it snow. A moment later, he opened his eyes, and he saw a veritable blizzard out his window. The later addition to this story suggest that he felt it needed more support after using the initial story. Victor showed no marked improvement, neither in character, nor in behaviour, thru the rest of the 1940s (nearly the entire decade after this supposed promise), which strongly supports the rather direct assertion that he lied thru his teeth. October 3, 1942, vpw does his first radio broadcast. He continued to do a radio show under one name or another for several years- Vesper Chimes, aka Chimes Hour Youth Caravan. Its name changes to Chimes Hour Youth Caravan in 1947. Rhoda joined its staff in 1947. In 1948, vpw is issued a "Doctorate" from Pikes Peak Seminary, an organization lacking accreditation and formal classes (among other things.) At one point, Rufus Moseley attempts to minister Holy Spirit to vpw, but vpw demonstrates an inability to receive it. In 1951, he visits missionaries in Honduras. In 1951, vpw makes another claim he's ready to give up on the ministry (even after, supposedly a direct promise of God about really important stuff which promptly failed to materialize.) In November, 1951, vpw attends the Full Gospel Rally, in Tulsa, Oklahoma (a big Evangelical conference.) He made several claims of this conference. People at the conference OTHER than vpw supposedly had no difficulty beginning speaking in tongues. He claims he faked speaking in tongues in a clever way, and others were unable to tell. He is further disillusioned about working for God. He then claims a miraculous snowstorm blocked him into the city entirely, and ALL evidence there was that there WAS no blizzard (and there was a WEALTH of evidence-at the airports, Amtrak and bus depot, the hotel staff, the attendees, etc) was concealed by angels. vpw also, apparently, never approached a window, or they made an illusion at the window. Supposedly, a woman comes up to him and tells him that she knows a man who can help him- JE Stiles. He claims God told Stiles to attend the conference with the sole purpose of ministering the Spirit to vpw. vpw meets with Stiles, and makes a few chauvanistic observations to himself, before going off with Stiles. Stiles works with him for hours and hours, hammering across to vpw what the Bible says on speaking in tongues, and working over his doubts one by one for hour upon hour. Finally, vpw was able to speak in tongues. It was during the 1950s that vpw's behaviour was noted to finally improve, although he still did not stop including inappropriate words or concepts in his sermons. In 1953, vpw finds out about BG Leonard, and pushes his way into BG Leonard's CTC Gifts of the Spirit class, which Leonard permits. vpw takes this class twice, bringing several people with him the second time. vpw then went off for a few months by himself, then told Leonard that he'd like to run Leonard's CTC Gifts of the Spirit class locally for his congregation on a one-time basis. Seeing the benefit to other Christians, Leonard agrees. vpw then runs the first of "his" PFAL classes, and takes a photograph of that class. He tells the students that this is "his" class called PFAL, with NO mention of Leonard's class from which 100% of the content has been directly lifted. The students have no reason to think he's lying. vpw sends the photograph to Leonard and said tells Leonard that this is a photo of the class that took Leonard's class on a one-time basis that was run locally. Leonard takes vpw at his word, and has no idea that vpw continues to run Leonard's class with vpw's name on it, defrauding both Leonard AND the students. To this day, many students STILL think this was was vpw's class, even when evidence is introduced to the contrary. Later, vpw added the contents of JE Stiles' work on "Gifts of the Spirit" and Bullinger's work on the Holy Spirit as well as "How to Enjoy the Bible", and expanded the class into a class that was the sum of the 3 men's work-Stiles, Bullinger and Leonard-rather than just Leonard. vpw later makes a few offhand comments here and there that the material in the class is not original, but its compilation was. (However, as it was constructed, vpw could have been sued by copyright holders for Bullinger, Stiles, and Leonard. Leonard found out but chose not to prosecute.) In 1953, vpw also takes JE Stiles' "Gifts of the Spirit" book, changes a few words, and self-publishes it as the 1st Edition of "Receiving the Holy Spirit Today." (Later editions would include incorporation of material from Leonard and Bullinger, and would include more cosmetic changes in the order of the words and the specific words used in an attempt to make it look less like Stiles' book.) vpw runs "his" PFAL classes continually from 1953 onward, with some success. According to his published memorial, Bishop KC Pillai took PFAL in 1954, and began teaching a class on "Orientalisms of the Bible". (Pillai also wrote 3 small books: "Light Through an Eastern Window" and Volumes I and II of "Orientalisms of the Bible.") According to the memorial in 1985, 1955 was the year they officially chartered "the Way". In 1955, JP was born. 2 months later, VPW leaves JP with family for the next year or so, taking his wife and eldest son on a tour of the mission fields in India, on the Evangelical and Reformed Church's dime. (1955-1957) (Per TW:LIL) He is irritated that he's reminded he is not officially designated as a spokesman or investigator of theirs. According to his account in TW:LIL, there he meets Bishop KC Pillai, whom he later invites to teach. According to the memorial, this tour of the mission fields from 1955-1956, and includes stops in Great Britain, Europe, India, and "the Bible lands." According to the memorial, 1956 is when he wrote "the Dilemma of Foreign Missions in India." (According to TW:LIL) In 1957, vpw returns to Van Wert. He cuts his ties with the Evangelical and Reformed Church, and takes "his" PFAL class with him. In 1957, he and Harry buy out their brothers and buy the family farm outright. Rather than take ownership themselves, they declare it the property of "the Way", a church organization (thus tax-exempt.) (Per TW:LIL, Harry said this was the time they chose the name "the Way".) Work begins on fixing up the farm. In 1959, he runs a Wisconsin Summer Camp. In 1960, he runs an Indiana Summer Camp. In 1961, he moves to the farm (refurbishment being sufficient for the move). Bishop Pillai arrives and teaches at the summer school. (Per TW:LIL.) In 1961, he runs a Miamisburg, Ohio Summer Camp. In 1962, he moves the summer school to the farm (refurbishment being sufficient to hold classes there in the new BRC.) In 1962, Lamsa teaches at the summer school. (Lamsa is another unconventional teacher who claims special knowledge of the Bible and special status as a man of God.) In 1963, vpw goes to Lima, Ohio and films the sessions called "the Teacher". (Despite this, success STILL has not taken off as vpw wished.) According to the memorial, 1967 is when "Are the Dead Alive Now?" (which is adapted from some of Bullinger's books) was published, and PFAL was filmed. According to TW:LIL In 1967, vpw reads about the Christians at the House of Acts. vpw goes there, impresses them, and convinces them he has extensive, EXCLUSIVE knowledge they lack. He then turns those he can from unorganized Christians into a recruitment arm for his class and organization. They agree to handle things on the East and West coasts, and many young Christians are impressed with THEM and join. According to the memorial, his trip to Haight-Ashbury/House of Acts was in 1968. As of 1969, sizeable numbers of young people had flocked to twi from both coasts as a result. Once there was sizeable membership in both coasts, vpw pushed out the Christians from the House of Acts and insisted authority would come FROM hq and tithes would go TO hq. No exceptions. At that point (1969), vpw made his first attempt at a Way Corps, which resulted in the famous "Zero Corps". In 1971, vpw began his WOW Ambassador program. This program underwent some changes, but primarily was a one-year committment to get sent out, support yourself, find housing, and run PFAL classes. According to his memorial, 1971 was when the Orange Book, "Power for Abundant Living" was first self-published. It contained mostly material from Leonard's class and from Bullinger's book "How to Enjoy the Bible". A number of pamphlets called "Studies in Abundant Living" accompanied the PFAL class from fairly early on (the filmed class names "Studies in Human Suffering", later renamed "Job:Victim to Victor".) In 1971, the first 3 volumes of "Studies in Abundant Living" are published. In 1974, Emporia College in Emporia, Kansas is bought. It is renamed "the Way College of Emporia". Despite an absence of accreditation, licensed professors, and a school "library" composed ENTIRELY of used textbooks donated by way members, it is put forth as if it is a normal, accredited college. In 1975, "Jesus Christ is Not God" is published. This is the last book-not counting Vol 4 of Studies in Abundant Living- that is actually put together by vpw. In 1976, campuses are purchased in Rome City, Indiana ("the College of Biblical Research) and Gunnison, Colorado (the Way Family Ranch-Camp Gunnison). In 1977, the PFAL '77 is done live at Ball State University. According to the memorial, in 1977, Howard Allen and "Uncle" Harry Wierwille were installed as Trustees on the Board of Trustees. In 1977, Volume 4 of Studies in Abundant Living was published. In 1978, the land for the LEAD Outdoor Academy was purchased in Tinnie, New Mexico. In 1979, Advanced Class '79 ran (live, I imagine.) In 1980, "Jesus Christ Our Passover" was published. This was the first book written by competent staff and researchers. According to the book itself, it is written "by Victor Paul Wierwille", with no mention of anyone else. It is a higher-caliber book than twi normally self-publishes. In 1982, twi celebrates its "Fortieth Anniversary" since the radio shows that weren't called "the Way". In 1982, vpw installed LCM as the new president of twi and vpw becomes "president emeritus". In 1982, "Jesus Christ Our Promised Seed" was published. It also is written by staff, and says "by Victor Paul Wierwille" on the cover. It relies largely on the calculations of another writer as well. This book also saw the breakthrough of proper crediting, since it actually named the other writer (Martin) and his book. In 1984, a live PFAL class was taught at Camp Gunnison, and a manor house is purchased in Gartmore, Scotland. It is named the Way College of Biblical Research. (aka Gartmore House, or "the big house" to the villagers of Gartmore.) In 1985 the "Word over the World Auditorium" opens at the organizations hq on the farm. vpw dies May 20, 1985 at age 68. Volume 5 of Studies in Abundant Living is published posthumously. Its contents are from vpw, it is edited by Chr1$ Ge** ============ Ok, that's better still. I STILL need to put something better about Lamsa (I'm open to suggestions), and I'm missing the timeframe for Dr EE Higgins, his "fan" who called and visited all the time. Interesting how some of those dates conflict from source to source.

In 1985, vpw died of metastatic melanoma of the liver and ocular melanoma. In plain English, that's cancer of the liver and cancer of the eye. A physician or atheist would say this was obviously due to his continuous drinking of alcoholic beverages (which damaged his liver and weakened his immune system to a degree) and his continuous smoking of cigars and cigarettes (which exposed him to large amounts of KNOWN carcinogens over long periods of time.) vpw taught in his Advanced class that cancer was the direct result of demonic activity. His rationale for this was that cancer supposedly has a life of its own, so it must be the result of a separate life-form. vpw ALSO taught that people who did not receive deliverance from disease were FAILING in their believing, since they could receive deliverance at any time. Thus, people who contracted cancer had been the successful target of a "devil-spirit", and people who did not overcome cancer had failed in their believing. vpw put forth-and encouraged others to put forth- that he was some sort of super-believer, exceptional as a Christian and in his believing, in fact, in a category all by himself. (Well, him, Adam and Jesus.) Thus, he was "hoist on his own petard". Since, according to his own teachings, he had to be spiritually inferior to suffer from cancer, he could acknowledge he was teaching error- which would shatter his supposed infallibility as a mouthpiece for God- or admit he was spiritually inferior- which would shatter his supposed infallibility as a mouthpiece for God. As for himself, he seems to have convinced himself to a degree that his doctrines were actually right, and he also WAS a super-believer. He claimed in private that, before this, he'd never been sick a day in his ENTIRE LIFE, and, on his deathbed, he wondered what mistake he was making that was interfering with his believing to destroy the cancer. As for the organization, there were huge coverups of the problems. When he got cancer in his eye, he personally claimed-and had others claim- that it was NOT the result of his lengthy exposure to known carcinogens- but instead it was the result of the bright lights he used in the filming of PFAL. Bright lights, to this day, have NEVER been shown to have ANY ability to cause cells to become cancerous (except lengthy exposure to special ultraviolet "sun lamps", which he did NOT use.) His excuse (which lacks merit) allowed him to claim he was suffering for a "spiritual reason". He did NOT allow the word "cancer" to be spoken about it, just that his eye was destroyed by the lights so he could film PFAL. He used this as "proof" of his great committment and sacrifice to God. "I gave my EYE...what are YOU willing to give???" Even up to his death, he NEVER changed his teaching on cancer, which remained a teaching which caused others to suffer needlessly. The reason for his death was COMPLETELY covered up. It was claimed-by more than one person in leadership- that he "just stopped believing", or "believed to stop living" or "put his face to the wall" and that he could have changed his mind and chosen to live at any point. All these reasons were never called "spiritual suicide"-which, technically, they WERE. They were used to shift the blame for his death OFF his indulged vices of alcohol and tobacco, OFF his lack of self-control, OFF his fulfilling the lusts of the flesh, and onto the PEOPLE- leadership or peons. "He would have chosen to live if you'd been faithful!" The fiction of VPW as a super-believer was so complete that even Howard Allen-who had "seen the man behind the curtain", who knew of the addictions to alcohol and tobacco- voluntarily accepted blame for VPW's death when he heard this. To this day, some people absolutely REFUSE to accept VPW died of cancer (although his death certificate is publically available and easy to find online), and some refuse to let go of the "he could have lived, had he wanted" doctrine as well.

For one, I still care. I'm slowly trying to compile WHAT happened, and WHEN it happened. So, anything with dates or details is appreciated. I'm given to understand a lot of people appreciate this stuff but don't say so as well. So, there's others also.

I'd like to request that you guys either move this thread to Doctrinal so you can more formally attack Mark, or start a NEW thread in Doctrinal so you can more formally attack Mark.

The answer IS "Stripes". In the second scene, his girlfriend's leaving him, and one of her complaints is that he sits around all day "listening to those stupid Tito Puente albums!" or something like that. John Winger's response was what I quoted. (To tell the truth, I forgot that scene was there until someone reminded me-someone who, for some reason, never heard of Tito Puente.) ======= I don't recognize your movie yet.

Ok, let's see.... Continuing on from vpw's death, between 1985-1988 there were a few events. -Schoenheit's Adultery paper -Passing of the Patriarch presented -a bunch of top guys- Ra1** Dub0v**y and J0hn Ly*n included- leave was this when the "fog years" happened? 1989- lcm draws his line in the sand, demanding allegiance. 80% of the current membership leaves, including much of the Limb leaders and Corps And what happened when in the 1990's?

shazdancer: From TWI's own memorial brochure, made available at the Rock of Ages, 1985: -Dec. 31, 1916 VPW born -July 2, 1937 Wierwille marries Dorothea Kipp (ages 20 and 21)<LI> BA from Lakeland College -1940 Donald born -1941 Bachelor of Theology from Lakeland; Masters from Princeton Theological; starts first pastorate (July); ordained (July 29) -1942 Karen born; "snow on the gas pumps" (early fall); first radio broadcast (Oct. 3) -1944 second pastorate; Mary Ellen born -1947 Chimes Hour Youth Caravan -1948 Pikes Peak "doctorate -1951 VPW visits missionaries in Honduras; VPW led into tongues by J. E. Stiles -1953 first edition of Receiving the Holy Spirit Today, first PFAL class -1954 Pillai takes PFAL, teaches Orientalisms -1955 JP born (July); ministry becomes The Way, Inc. September-April, -1955-56 Wierwilles (minus JP) travel to Great Britain, Europe, India, and the Bible Lands Dilemma of Foreign Missions in India published -1957 Sara born (July); VPW resigns from denomination ======= shazdancer': -1961 The Way, Inc. moves to the Wierwille farm -1962 first summer school in the new BRC -1967 Are the Dead Alive Now? published; PFAL filmed -1968 VPW goes to Haight-Ashbury -1969 first Way Corps -1971 WOW ambassador program begins; the PFAL book and Vols 1-3 are published -1974 Way C of E bought -1975 Jesus Christ is Not God published -1976 Rome City and Gunnison campuses bought -1977 Live PFAL taught at Ball State U.; HEW and HRA installed as new BOT; Vol. 4 published -1978 LEAD property bought -1979 Advanced Class '79 -1980 Jesus Christ our Passover published -1982 Fortieth Anniversary celebration; LCM installed as new president; Jesus Christ our Promised Seed published -1984 live PFAL in Gunnison; Gartmore dedicated -1985 WOW Auditorium opens; Vol. 5 published; VPW dies May 20, age 68 "Mike": An addendum to the above list: the item that reads "WOW ambassador program begins; the PFAL book and Vols 1-3 are published" occured in 1971. "shazdancer": I noticed a couple of things just from looking at the dates: 1.) Wierwille was only 24 years old when he started as a pastor. Then after only one year, he is disillusioned about not being able to help people (according to the pamphlet). He spends one whole summer studying the Bible after Rosalind Rinker's challenge, then sees snow on the gas pumps. Hmm... sounds more like lazy than revelation! 2.) Mrs. Wierwille had given birth just two months before VPW took her and the older children to India and elsewhere for a year. She should barely have recovered from the birth. They left JP with relatives for the baby's crucial first year of life. Not exactly a sterling example of Christian parenting. 3.) The 40th Anniversary celebration was not for the 40th year of The Way, nor of PFAL. It was 40 years since the snow on the gas pumps story supposedly happened. (Clarification by Catcup -- TWI counts its anniversary from the first Vesper Chimes Hour radio broadcast, also in 1942, also 11 years before the first PFAL Class. Thanks, Catcup!) Sure makes it sound like TWI was well-established to say it that way, though, huh? =========== Sites with some history of twi... http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/cultsthe.htm http://www.watchman.org/profile/waypro.htm http://www.excultworld.com/twi.htm

Ok, THIS was the thread I was looking for.

Hm. I didn't find the post I was LOOKING for...

Not to mention, if you tried that defense in court when sued on copyright violation, (name-dropping and casually mentioning people who influenced you), the case would be open-and-shut, and you'd SO lose. Our JUNIOR high school students know this. Our HIGH SCHOOL students know this. Our COLLEGE students know this. Our MASTERS candidates know this. Our DOCTORS candidates know this. vpw KNEW it was a crime. He learned that in high school, college, and when he went for his Masters. He chose to do this anyway, AND to promptly slap copyright notices on all "his" books, to complete the hypocrasy.

AFAIK, that began changing with Vatican II. I was raised Roman Catholic and served as an altar boy. I have NEVER attended a mass that was given in Latin. And I had an EXCELLENT attendance record as a kid. (52 Sundays of the year, plus High Holy Days, plus a few more here and there when parochial school classes attended together.) And yes, my religious education was much as described here, with form taught, but no education as to what and why. It was mechanical and sterile. If that was representative of ALL Roman Catholics I know, I'd be advocating for everyone I know to leave it posthaste.

Yes, that's how they announced it publicly. ==== I'll add a few comments to the already-fairly-complete picture. One poster here posted once that they interacted with vpw in the last 24 hours of his life, and that he seemed to be sincere when he was wondering something over and over. Supposedly, he was trying to figure out where he blew it in his life that he wasn't able to believe for healing. Either he was still putting on a show, or he honestly didn't think the lives he ruined would have any spiritual impact. (Probably BOTH.) I'd also like to mention the technical reasons for his early death. He had cancer in his eye and cancer in his liver. It's been claimed-by twi and by posters here- that he got cancer in his eye from the bright lights of pfal, so his death was our fault because he filmed it for us. Now, I'd believe that he sensitized his eyes in filming. However, we know what the most common carcinogens are (we know what you usually would get cancer from.) Bright lights don't cause cancer- unless you're using an ULTRAVIOLET spotlight. vpw COULD have used those lights until he was driven blind from their brightness, and he STILL would not have gotten cancer from them. What does cause cancer? The most common cancer-causing agent is TOBACCO-cigars, cigarettes. If you're around "second-hand smoke" enough, you can get lung cancer. Sigmund Freud needed surgery to his mouth to remove cancerous tissue that resulted from HIS cigars. vpw smoked cigars. vpw smoked cigarettes. vpw smoked cigars and cigarettes. vpw smoked cigars and cigarettes A LOT. To call the man a chain-smoker is to understate the amount of smoking he did. The eye is a fantastic organ, but it has very sensitive tissues. It's vulnerable to more than most external tissue. So, if it's continually exposed to carcinogens in the air, it should be no surprise it got cancer. It also should not surprise anyone that one eye got more cancer. That's because exposure will not be uniform. People exhale smoke in a particular direction. It would not have to say anything about the eye that caught the cancer. Supposedly, he got cancer in his eye, and it spread to his liver, and then he degenerated and died pretty young. This ALSO makes sense. vpw drank alcoholic beverages. vpw drank alcoholic beverages a LOT. vpw was usually seen with either a cigar/cigarette in his hand or mouth, or a drink in his hand, or both. vpw would often start drinking VERY EARLY in the day (his "coffee mug" didn't hold "coffee", or at least, ONLY coffee.) He would KEEP drinking. Drambuie seemed to be his most common drink. Now, frequent, persistent drinking damages the liver. So, the entire time he was drinking, he was injuring his liver, weakening it. So, when it was exposed to cancer, it had NO ability to fight it off. So, his vices of alcohol and tobacco slowly poisoned and weakened his body, eventually killing him. Please note that vpw was VERY vocal about people having "discipline" and self-control, and the entire time, he was addicted to tobacco and alcohol. (Which, of course, shows a lack of SELF-discipline.) So, his vices slowly killed him, as I see it.

If I miss any more like that last one, I'll have to hand in my membership card... And I'm sure this one isn't the Alan Parsons Project, since he wouldnt include the title in the clue.

"We're Americans. With a capital 'A', huh? And do you know what that means? Do you? That means that our forefathers were kicked out of every decent country in the world. We are the wretched refuse. We're the underdog. We're mutts. See? His nose is cold."

Ok. We took a look at vpw's own "speaking in tongues" experience in the "Way:Living in Wonderland" thread. I think it wasn't so much to help their believing, but to do something Stiles NEVER did with him. Stiles built his believing and walked him through speaking in tongues, then left and let vpw get on with his life. I think vpw had a special experience with God (speaking in tongues), and decided he'd try to slap a product label on it. Where others would lead Christians to speak in tongues, vpw would tie speaking in tongues to his organization, so you'd have to be on your way "in" to speak in tongues. People were actively discouraged from speaking in tongues before Session 12. They HAD TO connect speaking in tongues with PFAL, they HAD to. That made them dependent upon PFAL, and the organization that ran PFAL. I was back in the other thread. :) Right the first time, Roy! vpw wanted to be thought of as THE leader, which means he had to be seen as THE Teacher, THE Christian, the Most Special Christian. 'All other churches are doo-doo, only this one is good!' He also had to isolate the young and impressionable from OTHER Christians, so they could never see that some were quite good. To the STUDENT, yes.But vpw didn't really care about the individual STUDENT, so long as he had MOST of them. They were interchangeable and DISPOSABLE, even in the Way Corps. So, he got what he wanted. You've got it. Sadly, I think we all did.It's normal for someone to get excited and accidentally push, but vpw WANTED us to push. vpw HATED the Roman Catholic Church (as did lcm). He was sometimes vicious with their stuff back when he was with the Evangelical and Reformed Church, and he didn't "lighten up" when he ran his own show. Yes, and that was his PLAN. He WANTED it that way. I learned a lot, myself, in our examination of "his" book, "the Way:Living in Love."

Is Rita Skeeter in there, or were all her scenes left out of the script?

Statutory rape, as defined in "the Legal Dictionary": "sexual intercourse with a female below the legal age of consent, but above the age of a child, even if the female gave her consent, did not resist and/or mutually participated." Yep-sex with multiple 14 and 15 year olds is statutory rape. The only possible way to avoid this being a felony is to escape ONE count of this crime by obtaining PRIOR JUDICIAL PERMISSION and MARRYING that ONE minor. Sex between two individuals who have obtained a legal marriage license is not a crime. If he tried to escape ALL counts of STATUTORY RAPE, he would need PRIOR JUDICIAL CONSENT to marry EACH girl. As we know, judicial consent is not granted for the comission of a crime, and marrying more than one spouse is not legal in the US. Koresh did NOT obtain PRIOR JUDICIAL PERMISSION, so he committed multiple acts of STATUTORY RAPE. STATUTORY RAPE all by itself is a felony.Koresh had sex with more than one girl aged 14-15. Each such act was STATUTORY RAPE. Amazing how you're unable to comprehend this. The boiling point of water is 212 degrees Farenheit. So what? We're not talking about the FBI,we're talking about a MULTIPLE ACCOUNT RAPIST. Only YOU keep bringing up a supposed justification to commit murder. Then again, you refuse to call statutory rape what it is. That's not from any of our posts. Please do not invent straw men when supposedly discussing with us. You're ineligible for a marriage license at the age of 14 or 15, unless the COURT has reviewed your situation, and agreed you're a special exemption and can give informed consent, despite being legally a minor. Ever try entering into a legal contract with a minor? It won't work. Contract law specifies minors are legally unable to enter into contracts, or give informed consent to enter into contracts. (A contract is also voided if any of the parties are insane, since the insane are unable to give informed consent. That's in every contract-that's the sanity clause.) They DON'T allow that.The County Clerk of ANY county would disallow it. He would NOT issue a license, which is the legally-binding portion of a marriage. I posted a link to the County Clerk of Dallas' website, where this is spelled out. I posted a link to a judgement by the Texas Attorney General-the state's highest law officer, where he EXPLAINS all this. I recommend actually reading the linked sites and trying to understand them.

They did not BELIEVE it was sick. That made it no less sick, no less wrong, no less illegal. The guys in NAMBLA who want to have sex with little boys, they don't WANT to "break the law", they just want to have sex with little boys. They've constructed a sub-culture where it is permissible and acceptable to have sex with little boys. According to NAMBLA, the little boys would not be harmed if the adult males had sex with them. According to NAMBLA, they have no ill will towards the little boys and wish only good things for them. So, according to YOUR logic, a NAMBLA guy with "no criminal intent" who has sex with a little boy can't be charged with a crime. He claims he has not harmed the little boy, he has no "criminal intent", he claims the little boy has BENEFITTED from the experience and consented and so on. By YOUR logic, this makes what he did fine. By the laws of ALL 50 United States, that NAMBLA guy committed a felony, and will go to jail. (Where he will face other criminals who view child molestors as the lowest of the low-even to THEM they are reprehensible.) When he comes out of jail, entire communities would have to be notified of his whereabouts, in order to alert the parents that their little boys face an imminent danger. If John Law catches you in Texas having sex with a little boy, you WILL go to jail, you WILL be charged with a felony, and you WILL serve a sentence behind bars. If John Law catches you in Texas having sex with 2 15-year old females (the minimum possible scenario with Koresh), you WILL go to jail, and you WILL be charged with a felony, and you WILL serve a sentence behind bars. We're still discussing the STATUTORY RAPE COMMITTED by Koresh when he had sex with 14 and 15 year olds.

Nice site. It's NOT a an official site of the government of the state of Texas. As that site's disclaimer says, it is "not a substitute for personal legal advice from an attorney." According to their "Conditions of Use" disclaimer, "FreeAdvice is a legal publisher, and neither a law firm, nor a substitute for an attorney's advice, nor a legal referral service. By using FreeAdvice...you are agreeing that under no circumstances will the Company, its affiliates, or any lawyer listed on either site be responsible for (1) any information contained on or omitted from the site (2) any person's reliance on any such information, whether or not the information is correct, current or complete (3) the consequences of any action you or any other person takes or fails to take, whether or not based on information provided by or as a result of the use of the sites." In short, they're not legal experts and offer no guarantee ANY of their site's contents are accurate. But THIS is the site you picked to document your side. I used several. If you look, you'll see that I cited the official site for the Dallas County Clerk's Office. That's an official county in Texas. Marriages are not legal or recognized without a marriage license. I linked the page giving the requirements for obtaining a marriage license in Dallas County, which is bound by ALL the same requirements as the rest of the state. (Each county does NOT have different license requirements.) What are the license requirements? "JUDICIAL APPROVAL IS REQUIRED FOR ANY MARRIAGE UNDER 16. INDIVIDUALS WHO ARE 16 AND 17 MUST HAVE JUDICIAL APPROVAL OR PARENTAL CONSENT." In other words, an AUTHORITATIVE site said you were wrong, and an UNauthoritative site said you were right. (There's no DISCLAIMER on the site of the County Clerk's office.) So, marriages of a man to a 14 or 15-year old in Texas without PRIOR JUDICIAL APPROVAL are invalid, and they're unable to get married. Sex between an adult and a 14- or 15-year old minor in Texas with whom they are not married is STATUTORY RAPE. STATUTORY RAPE is the same as RAPE in regards to laws and sentencing. Furthermore, Koresh would be unable to legally obtain a marriage license for all of his sex partners. The state of Texas would issue ONE license at MOST. (It would not issue one for him and a 14-year old without PRIOR JUDICIAL APPROVAL.) Therefore, by definition, if he had sex with 2 or more girls of age 14 or 15, it would be impossible under ANY provision under Texas law (even if he DID get judicial approval for ONE) to avoid the charge of STATUTORY RAPE. It was immoral of him to exploit the office of leader to trick his congregation's women into having sex with him. Based on violations of fiduciary trust, some of the adults may have sued him in civil court, and may have won. It was both IMMORAL AND ILLEGAL for Koresh to have sex with 14-and 15-year olds. In the eyes of the law, a 14 or 15-year old is unable to give INFORMED CONSENT, which is why any exceptions would need prior review and approval by a judge (who is both a legal expert and holds the office of an executor of the law.) The state does acknowledge that it is possible that someone may find an exception where this may apply. It's obvious you were unable to understand the explanation given by the TEXAS STATE ATTORNEY GENERAL- which I linked- which explained WHY this is set up in this fashion. This is no surprise. If the sheriff is unaware Koresh is having sex with 14-year olds, he can't claim KoreshIS. Since the parents were hoodwinked, and the teens had diminished capacity due to age, no one had filed a report of STATUTORY RAPE. With no report filed, I don't expect the sheriff to just somehow know Koresh COMMITTED STATUTORY RAPE. The lack of a filed report does not mean that a crime has not occurred- just that an investigation has not begun since you can't investigate a crime you've never heard was committed, nor suspect happened. If you are murdered and no one ever finds the body (you just disappear), the murdered STILL committed a murder, which is a felony. If you are raped and never report it, you were still the victim of a felony. I don't need to watch a film to know that an adult male having sex with 14 or 15 year oldS in Texas is COMMITTING STATUTORY RAPE. Why did you not even suspect this, and why do you even question this? Fine. You're a supposedly healthy person, who is claiming that a felony was not a crime, and minors who were the victims of felonies were not victims of a crime, and you've claimed that sex with underage partners is not a crime in Texas. You've stopped short of literally ADVOCATING it as far as I see. Was that a lapse, or did I miss it, or would you like to claim 'adults SHOULD have sex with minors in Texas' and get this over with? For a supposedly-healthy person, you're already advocating FOR someone who committed statutory rape. If you had sex with a 14-year old in the US with whom you were not married, who was 1/2 your age, and she gave full consent in WRITING and VIDEO ahead of time, you'd still go to JAIL for "STATUTORY RAPE". That's a CRIME in the US. Don't you know what the term "jailbait" is? The "culture" of the Branch Davidians was the US culture. Waco is in TEXAS. That's in the US. They get tv and radio-the same channels as the rest of us. Etc, etc. Further, if you married someone, then had sex with a minor with whom you are not married, that's "STATUTORY RAPE" and ILLEGAL in this country. Further, if you married more than one minor, that's "BIGAMY" and ILLEGAL in this country. David Koresh broke the LETTER of the law with his boinking the women of "his congregation", no matter WHAT justification he gave. You may have forgotten, but "freedom of religion" does not allow you to commit crimes as defined in the Laws of the US. That was reiterated in the court documents presented to twi in one of their cases. People have the right to believe as they wish, and teach as they wish, but they may not commit crimes, nor incite to commit crimes, nor conspire to commit crimes. === Besides it being ILLEGAL, it was also IMMORAL. "David Koresh" abused his office when he defined procedure and said all the women were supposed to have sex with him. Even if "everyone knew about it and approved", you're still ignoring that when an authority figure REDEFINES things for you, and establishes social structures that REINFORCE that, it doesn't steal all freewill from the person, but it means they are no longer thinking in a fair and objective fashion. (Perhaps you still don't see that, ever.) So, it is wrong for a religious leader to take a woman (or man), arrange things in his favour, pressure him/her to have sex with him, and claim it's perfectly fine. WHETHER OR NOT HE DRUGS HIM OR HER. It's wrong no matter WHO does it.