Oakspear

The last batch of "leaders" that I had were a mixed bag. Way Corps couple where the husband was functionally illiterate. Not bad overall, but would "confront" people seemingly at random. Single Corps guy who was nice enough but didn't have a clue Family Corps couple. Both pretty nice folks, can't think of anything bad to say about them. The husband was some kind of engineer, d*mn smart New corps grad who liked to act smart, but it wasn't much more than an act. Liked to pretend that he was a big research guy...barely knew that that there was a difference between Aramaic and Greek. Was really into Martindale's "confrontation" of "unproductive evil" and loved "smoking out homos"

No....he didn't...

Either God works in me or he doesn't....the old false dilemma. And you couldn't say that God didn't work in him, because then, why were you following him? TWI leadership was adept at using the false dilemma to stifle arguments and questions.

Well said WordWolf. Many verses taken alone or in conjunction with other selected vesres seem to support one position or the otehr, while others seem to state the exact opposite.

Waysider, as Bramble posted, there wasn't anything offensive in what you said. It is quite common for people to identify Wicca or other neo-paganism with Satanism. Part of the reason for that is that some Christians (e.g. Jack Chick and his tracts) purposely lump together everything that "aint' them" , including other Christians, as Satanic.

The Satanic bible is from the Church of Satan.

Mike isn't derailing in my opinion. Although I didn't expect his appearance (nobody expects...) his belief that PFAL is revelation from God, or whatever the exact phrasing is (sorry Mike, I've not read all your recent posts) isn't any more circular than a belief in an inerrant original text of the bible that no one has or will ever have. Although i do think that the evidence of plagiarism is pretty solid proof that Wierwille borrowed, cut & pasted, etc. and didn't receive PFAL theopneustos. Mike knows my opinion, knows I disagree with him, and I know that he disagrees with him. Let him play with the rest of us.

Perhaps there is. If there is such a thing I believe that different religions are perceiving but a part of it. And I have no problem with you believing that the Devil exists. My belief system does not include a devil. Me neither, but we're the ones perceiving it and interpreting it. Something we disagree about Something esle we disagree about. We're looking at things from different angles, different perspectives. From my perspective I'm not trying to take over from a God that I do not believe exists. I can se where from youyr perspective it would look that way. I'm sure that that's comforting. Not for me though. Heard of them, know zip about them I can't think of any offhand either.

"Spell" check? ^_^ Sounds Wiccan! None taken Gotcha. Sounds like we're agreeing but expressing it differently We agree again!

I know I won't slam you, you stated your opinion in a pretty respectful manner. I don't know that any of us are sugar-coating anything, just telling you what is Now if you have the opinion that all good comes from the biblical God, you probably believe that all evil comes from Satan/The Devil (correct me if I assume incorrectly), so it sounds like you are suggesting that the power comes from Satan. Wiccans in particular and pagans in general don't believe in the God of the bible. Some subscribe to a variety of creation myths, some don't. Some believe that "the power" comes from gods and goddesses, some add other spirit beings, some believe that there is a universal energy that can be tapped into and manipulated by various methods. Some reject the very idea of the biblical God, some see him as just one aspect of the divine. In short, there's a variety of opinions about it. Hmmm...yes and no. Certainly Wiccans revere nature and respect it. Some see it as a manifestation of the divine, or a blueprint, or a reflection. Again, wide difference of opinion. But the term "worships creation" communicates something different than the typical Wiccan believes. I agree, it is. Many folks on one end of the political spectrum try to mischaracterize animal lovers or environmentalists. Yes indeed. there's a lot that can be said about that subject. It's been my experience that Hollywood depictions of witchcraft and spiritualism are mainly hype and b.s. Good point In my opinion spells work about as often as prayer does.

Just a note: a person is a Wiccan, the religion is called Wicca. Not to be pedantic (okay, I am being pedantic ) the Wiccan Rede is generally stated as "An it harm none, do as you will" - but that simple statement is interpreted in many, many, different ways, but generally is understood to mean "no spells to hurt people" ...generally It is not the opinion of all Wiccans, but it is the opinion of some, I have no idea what percentage. I have heard it out of the mouths of most of the Wiccans that I know, and seen it on several websites. For all I know there may be no otehr Wiccans in the world that believe this though.One thing that you can be sure of with Wiccans is that they don't all agree on everything.

Once that trust was undermined I started looking more carefully, and found that a lot of not only what Martindale was saying, but what Wierwille had taught was set upon a foundation of sand. To me, there were too many problems woven into the fabric of TWI doctrine to not start over and see where it led me. And to clarify, it was the behavior of Martindale that got me started questioning, it wasn't the behavior itself that caused my subsequent rejection of TWI teachings. Another key ingredient in my decision to put aside what I had been taught in TWI was stumbling across the CES website. They had a (long) list of areas where they disagreed with what TWI taught. This wasn't just disagreement with Martindale, but disagreement with Wierwille as well. I realized after looking at what other offshoots were teaching, as well as what individual ex-wayfers were saying, that simply using the "keys to research" taught in PFAL (or in Bullinger for that matter) in no way guarantees that the results will be the same.

Regarding evangelism among Wiccans, in general they don't proselytize, although there are certainly exceptions to that. Regarding "spell work" - it's an effort to change reality in some way, whether it's to bring health, physical prosperity, good grades, parking spots (hey! kinda like "believing ), protection, etc. Some believe that the way to affect this change is by praying to the Goddess or lesser deities, some think that the Wiccans personal power does the changing, but I'm oversimplifying. They put prayer in the same category since in some sense, reality is being changed. The Wiccans I've met seem to reflect the general population in that some are wonderful people, some are utter @ssh*les. I've never heard of anyone being beaten, let alone to death, by Wiccans, although I'm sure that there are Wiccans who are violent, justr as there are Christians who are. If your religious beliefs are such that any religion that doesn't have Jesus as its savior is by definition dangerous in that it leads you away from the God of the bible, then you may have a point. But there are many such religions. I'd be one. I'm not exactly a Wiccan, which is a specific type of pagan, but I do consider myself a pagan, and I have celebrated the wheel of the year with Wiccans (as well as other flavors of pagan)

I started re-evaluating what I believed after the lawsuit announcement in 2000. Martindale's new doctrine's often had little visible support, so I began to look into them, at first using biblical research principles taught in PFAL. I found a lot of what I thought were errors. Eventually I began to find errors and inconsistancies in what Wierwille taught as well. The number of errors undermined any trust that I might have had in either man's ability to accurately teach the bible.

From what I've read and heard, some folks left TWI because someone wasn't "doing the Word". They left because the organization and/or its leaders weren't living up to "the standard". No change in belief system took place, other than believing that TWI was "where the Word was taught". Other folks left because they saw that TWI doctrine didn't line up with what they understood the bible to say. Still others were thrown out with no choice in the matter. For those who have changed their beliefs, how did the circumstances of your exit from TWI influence your subsequent religious/spiritual beliefs?

I believe it was '96 or '97

Well said FC, well said

Sounds like local companies to me. We've got Mobil, Shell and BP stations around here, but also Kwik Shop, Gas N Shop, Caseys, U-Stop which are basically convenience store companies. When I was a teenager I worked at a Getty station, but we got gas on the sly from other companies.

Why did they call it "Corps Night"? You were in the Corps, surrounded by other Corps, constantly doing the Corps program and getting Corps teachings, involved in the Corps work program. Was Wednesday night more Corpsish than the other six days?

But that is not what is being done. Wierwille's sins and abuses are not a pretext for throwing away what one perceives as truth, but a reason for doubting that everything that the man said was truth, for carefully examining what he taught, or starting afresh. You are either not understanding what people are saying, or you are deliberately twisting words, you certainly aren't accurately reflecting what the other side is saying...as WordWolf said, it's a strawman argument. One might say the same of those who unquestioningly hold to PFAL.

First of all, each one of us is "entitled", which I take to mean "has the right" (please correct me if I misunderstand you) to do what ever we want with what we learned in TWI for whatever reason we want. Frankly, I don't think God is overly concerned about where we learned what we believe. Second, I think that you're misunderstanding what people are saying about rejecting Wierwille and starting over. Rejecting Wierwille's teachings, or rejecting Wierwille and/or PFAL as a basis or source for truth, is not about a wholesale rejection of "truth", it's about finding "truth" independent of TWI. Some choose to "chuck it all" and start all over again. During this new search for "truth", anything that coincidently lines up with what Wierwille taught in PFAL is not thrown out again, but accepted, the fact that Wierwille also taught it is no longer relevant. The rejection is only permanant for those things that are not deemed to be true. It's similar with those who don't throw it all out, but examine carefully everything that Wierwille taught to determine its truthfullness, if something that Wierwille taught meets whatever criteria the individual sets, then it is retained, held fast, and again, the fact that Wierwille taught it is irrelevant. That's exactly what most, if not all those who have rejected Wierwille have done.

Well...yeah <_<

Same thing with any TWI musician, Dave Garibaldi, Billy Falcon...the TWI years are a blank spot on the ol' resume...not that I blame them

So, if there's not more than one WayD signup in a state, they can't go? We get the "stay in your own state" part ...what we don't get is what did TWI do if there was only one or two people from an area signed up? Did they get "sent" WayD solo? Did they have to wait until they could convince 3 other suckers to go? Did they have to move somewhere else? What year was this btw? I got out in late 2001. If I remember correctly, that year people stayed in their own regions, not necessarily their own states.

The reason I personally decided to just throw out the fish, to stick with the analogy that Oldiesman used, is that I can't trust the guy who cooked the fish. I personally do not think that everything that Wierwille taught was wrong, I haven't even given much thought to what percentage of it was wrong. The problem that I personally have with using Wierwille's teaching as a jumping off point and weeding through it trying to determine truth and error, is that so much of what he taught is dependent on other things that he taught, and that even many of our assumption about how to do biblical research are tangled up with Wierwille's errors. For example, the fundamental TWI understanding of the "manifestations" is tied up in Wierwille's questionable use of grammar, the whole concept of "to receive" is based on his faulty translations of Greek words, his explanation of believing vs. faith, on which so much Way theology is based, is wrong as well. It's the rare wayfer who has the wherewithal to do some actual biblical research, and to spot Wierwille's errors. Everyone who took PFAL and didn't leave the room during session accepted a lot because they trusted that Wierwille knew what he was talking about. I got to the point in my life where I no longer trusted that Wierwille knew what he what talking about.