Oakspear

I agree that that would make sense, and is indeed logical, but how do you support it biblically?It seems that God is equally adept at communicating to those with spirit and those without.

You got it, the biggest contradiction in the bunch!

The so-called Great Principle was based on Wierwille's doctrine that God could not speak to us directly, I think that Wierwille said something like "God can only speak to what he is, i.e, spirit", related to his assetion that God can only give what he is. I don't think that either can be supported by the bible.

My take on "leadership" these days is that no matter how nice and loving someone acted, they were still acting from a position of thinking that they had a right to interfere in your life. I include myself in this. The folks who thought that I was the greatest Twig Leader since Jesus Christ probably just were going along in the same direction as I was and didn't have occassion to cross me. The ones who thought that I was an @sshole were ones that I "reproved". I didn't "morph", was pretty much the same guy all along, how I acted and how I was perceived depended a lot on the situation. Some of the biggest b@stards in the 90's also could be guys who were my best buddy under the right circumstances, but when they thought that "the Word" was at stake, look out.

Sudo, you do know that "mano a mano" means "hand-to-hand"? I've seen pictures of Lingo and he's about two of you Now, in a battle of wits...

Must...resist...bad...PFAL...pun....

I've got a ship, but I'm not going to help you

...too bad the rest of you suckers struggling to make ends meet aren't loved by God as much as Lingo is. :(

I believe Mogen David is just a variant spelling of Magen David. Star of Davis? That would be Sammy, right?

cman, that made my morning

Well Mr. Lingo, you and I were often on different sides of GS's various discussions, but you always kept it civil. You'll be back....they always are

Speaking of kidneys... The King James word for kidneys is "reins"; it's where we get the word "renal" I think :huh: Body parts were used figuratively in Hebrew, heart, bowels of compassion, etc. Anyway, Martindale somehow missed this and did a teaching, maybe at one of those Advanced Class specials on one of the verses that used "reins", thinking it meant the reins that you use to steer a horse :o

The ladies loved the yellow hat

Ah...Bless Patrol I did BP at ROA '81, after I completed my WOW year. I was on duty from midnight - 4am some nights, and 8pm - midnight others. One night I'm "guarding" the President's home area and told that only cars with certain colored passes can get through. No exceptions. After a while a black limo rolls up. No pass. I stand in front of it, then walk over to the driver's window to inform the driver that he can't come in. He's a German guy; he informs me that he is coming through, he doesn't need a pass, that The Way International has only one limo, blah, blah, blah.... I'm about ready to yank his foot out through the car window when the back window rolls down and it's Howard Allen. He apologized for the lack of a pass, and for the driver's rudeness. I let him through. Overnight BP was also a great opportunity to get friendly with some of the Way wimmin.

I liked the ROA when I was single. I didn't care about the rain, or the crowded hotel rooms, and all the other crap, not because of "The Word", but because it was an adventure! I hung out with fun people, and got to do a road trip! One year I flew into Fort Wayne and hitch hiked into Sidney to meet up with two buddies who were driving in and were to get the hotel room that the three of us were going to stay in (first night only, after that I was going to tent it). They weren't there! My name wasn't on the reservation and they had my tent. I had to blow what little cash I had on another room and wash my stinky clothes in the hotel washer (my buddies had my luggage too). Backing up a bit, I ended up being invited to a bachelor party near the Indiana-Ohio line when some of thye party-goers almost ran me over. Then got picked up by two women who were driving to Sidney to hunt down the cheatin' boyfriend of one of them. :o I don't think that I paerticipated too much in the sanctioned activities in those days. Going to the ROA with children was another thing though. Rain, complete with flooding tents isn't so much of an adventure when you have little kids with you. Despite the "children's fellowship in the morning, the whole setup wasn't very family friendly IMHO. Combine that with the heavy legaism of the 90's and you end up with a big bummer 1995, the last ROA, was the only one where I brought all 6 of my kids. It had rained before we got there, and rained more after we arrived. We were a stinking, sodden mess all week. Of course, it was now The Class on Living Sanctified , rather than just a place to relax and meet old friends. We spent a lot of time (in between drying out our clothes) getting yelled at for various infractions. Our BC's wanted to caravan with us on the way home, rushed us out before we were ready, insisted on eating take-out in the vehicles, which is fine for adults, but not so fine for youngsters. Eventually they just sped up and left us somewhere in Iowa. The happiest I ever was at an announcement was when our LC told us that ROA '95 was the last

I guess the question would be, since you are tossing the OT in as a common point of reference, where in the OT does the concept of either heaven or hell show up?Many Christian beliefs (yes, I know that this is obvious) are based on a new testament spin on old testament passages.

Judaism is a religion that developed over the centuries. I don't know if you could even call what Abraham had a "religion" under any definition. Sticking to the biblical account, God talked to him personally, gave a few simple rules and guidelines and left it at that. According to the bible, there doesn't seem to have been much of a structure until Moses, just "worship me" and "don't worship those other gods". Even though Moses received The Law, starting with the tablets and continuing with more information over the years, there was no temple, no synagogues, no land of their own, until at least the time of David. Yes, but not necessarily the same interpretation. If you go strictly by the old testament, and especially with the book of Job, Satan does not appear to be the powerful adversary of God as he is portrayed in the new testament. In Job he is admitted into God's presence and appears to have God's permission to do what he does.

..and happy Imbolc to you!I'm on my way to ritual...go Bridget!

This is an "on-one-hand-on-the-other-hand" type of situation. Technically Satan/The Devil is on the same level as the angels, but he is viewed as God's main opponent and the author of death and evil as God is the author of life and light. Very similar to a mirror-image evil god in the way he is spoken of and regarded, even though few would put him on the same level as "The" God. Bramble's point was that Christianity's Satan is viewed as the source of all evil and that there is no pagan equivalent to this.

Gee, thanks for the vote of confidence

Nope, not even close.Even if you believe the bible, Adam & Eve's relationship with God, all the way up through at least the Egyptian captivity and probably up to the babylonian captivity, was very different than "Judaism"

let's pray that newbies will learn how to use paragraphs before they post

You have reckoned correctly. :B) I don't remember the details either, but as you pointed out, we have moved on and learn from each other's point of view.

Let's see, "ministry year" 1985-86: 15th WC would have been on their interim, so 14th & 16th were in residence 11th & 12th FC in residence, 13th FC practicum. Martindale was fired in 2000. "Ministry year" 1999-2000: 28th & 29th were in residence, 30th was apprentice, 31st was candidate (at some point they changed the program from Year 1: apprentice, Year 2: residence, Year 3: interim, Year 4: residence to Year 1: Candidate (similar to old apprentiice), Year 2: Apprentice (required to lead a Way Disciple Group or work on staff) Years 3&4: Residence) "Ministry Year" 2006-07: 36th & 37th are in residence, 38th & 39th are apprentice and candidate respectively. they elimnated family Corps as a separate entity a while back. In the mid-nineties they stopped referring to Way Corps by number and started referring to them by the year of graduation. Pretty close, I do't think that they've had a Corps group in double digits since the late nineties