Oakspear

Now class...the word "many" is the Greek word abuncha which means "many of a different kind, where more than two are involved, to overflowing, on this side and on that side into manifestation"

I only personally knew one person who went three times, never heard of anyone who went more.

White Dove & Dmiller: Note the word "many" in my post. It means something different than "all" Naturally there were folks that were on their own during the late 80's, just as there are folks who are on their own today. My point is that if you're not the only one, that's one less bit of leverage they had over you. Other than what I read at GS I have first-hand accounts only of what happened here in Nebraska and in New York. In New York Finnegan and most of the rest of the leadership were fired en masse, in Nebraska all but a handful of fellowships left as complete units. And nationwide, when 80% of the leadership and people leave together, overall it's not exactly being alone in the wilderness (for most people). If you think that I'm saying that people left because many others were also, I don't know that, and I'm not saying that. Everybody had their own reasons. However it would surprise me if no one left due to peer pressure. One of things that gripes me is the undercurrent of thought where we GSers (and maybe ex-wafers in general) seem to think that when we got out was THE perfect time. It's incomprehensible that anyone stayed in past the exact second when we left, when for every wayfer who left "just when things were getting bad", or when "The Word was no longer central", or "unscriptual decisions were being made" there was someone else who left five years earlier for similar reasons. Unscriptural decisions were being made in TWI long before the late 80's.

Coercion only works when they have some leverage. People put up with a lot because they were convinced that the altermative was worse. If you can convince someone that horrors await them "outside the household" control is relatively easy. I believe that so many were able to walk away at one time in the late 80's because there were support systems, i.e. large numbers of people were leaving together, often preceeded by their leaders. There was no being cut off from "The Word". A similar situation existed in 2000. Although this time the support system was the internet, for example the Waydale forums, where people could interact, not just read anti-Wierwille screeds.

One could argue that freedom of speech exists outside the First Ammendment, if only as a concept, if not a legal or constitutional issue. True, only a governmental supression of speech is a First Ammendment issue, but it seems to me that freedom of speech and expression is assumed unless the courts rule that an exception is warranted. True also is that there is no absolute freedom of speech. Really, its the marketplace that regulates "free speech" such as Richards'. He can say whatever he wants, but shouldn't be too surprised if he's not invited back and if he doesn't get much work in the future.

How about you said something that was baseless and are now changing the subject...TWI's leaders was certainly "opportunistic" about pointing out when "cop-outs" were killed after they left TWI. Lunchtimes, Corps nights and the so-called Leaders Tapes are even full of rejoicing at the harm that befell people after they left TWI.

"Kramer" from Seinfeld

"Because You Wanna Be" is the best answer that I've heard so far. A God-believer is going to view certain things as being "of God", an atheist is going to see the same things and come to very different conclusions, a Hindu a third set of conclusions, an believer in UFO visitations still another.

Could you point out that rejoicing for me? I don't see it.

Wordwolf: I believe that it was Dr. Higgins, the osteopath from Chicago, who introduced Wierwill to Bullinger. Rinker was the Korean missionary who suggested he teach people about the abundant life. Stub1: While some of Wierwille's books contain footnotes and give credit, notably JCOP, JCOPS, and some in JCING, there are none in PFAL (the book), RHST, CSBP or any of the "collaterals". The "credit" that Wierwille gave to Stiles, Leonard and Bullinger was: Mentioning that Stiles led him into tongues. Period Mentioning that he twice attended Leonard's class in Calgary, deriding it as long on experience and short on doctrine Claiming that he found out about Bullinger after he had come to the same conclusions himself All of these mentions were outside of his classes, and not included in his books, nor is there any hint at the wholesdale copying of these men's works.

I remember the first year that I got involved in TWI: I was in a twig of over 20 people, a branch of 8 twigs, 8 local branches were grouped into an "Area" (later a "Territory"), there were 7 or 8 Areas in the State. The Region included all of the East Coast from Maine down to DC. Only 8 in the whole country. The last year that I was involved in TWI I was in a twig that included only seven adults (3 married couples) and their children. There were no other fellowships in the state. Two years before the only Way Corps left the state after running a 2-fellowship "branch" and the Limb. We were included as part of the Limb of Missouri and the Kansas City branch, which was over 3 hours away.

Amazing how the smaller that they get the more layers of beuracracy they add. Fifteen regions? I count 11 states that don't have their own Limb Coordinator, probably because there are few, if any, Way people in those states, and six region coordinators who are "overseeing" only one other Limb Coordinator, plus Harve whose region is only one state. I remember at the peak of their numbers in the early eighties there were only eight region coordinators, and some of the bigger areas were subdivided into "Territories" or "Areas" that were the size of present-day regions.

he was really good at organizing his suits in the closet

Not necessarily. Many of us, if not most of us who got involved with TWI had little or no exposure to any kind of systematic theology. We wouldn't know how to identify what was sound and what wasn't if our lives depended on it. Wierwille just did a materful job of marketing his product.

After Martindale's announcement of the lawsuit but before his ouster, he talked about reorganizing things so that the chief teacher and the president were two different people.

Excellent responses. Sometimes GSers who still believe some or all of PFAL get a little miffed at the criticism. Well, the criticism isn't always right, but it should make you think. If you don't want to think, that's a whole 'nother problem then, isn't it?

Most of then time the explanations made only minimal sense, if at all. Would people really wonder why there were flowers at one table and not another? Heck, most wayfers would assume that it was planned that way. How about the "no gifts to Way Corps" policy? The rationale behind that bit of legalism was that us peons were "bribing" the Way Corps for...I don't know what.

For those who can't understand why some of us put up with the legalism, one reason was that it usually crept up on you. Kind of like the urban legend about the frog in the boiling water, crap would slowly and incrementally get worse until you were putting up with .... that you never would have if it just popped out of the blue. Another reason is that often times (at least until the late 90's early 2000's) it wasn't consistant. One leader would be nice and reasonable, and then the next would be a lunatic. We changed leadership enough in our area that we had learned to ride out the bad leaders by laying low and not raising a fuss. I would say it was in '95 that leaders started getting consistantly more prying, and unwilling to let you lay low. Also, keep in mind, that each situation was unique. Every one of us had our reasons for putting up with what we did for as long as we did. For every one who is convinced that he or she got out just before things got really bad, there are others who got out earlier who can't imagine why you stayed as long as you did and put up with what you did. It's all somewhat relative.

Are TWI's doctrines any "kookier" than any others? I don't think so. There's weird sh#t in pretty much any religious system IMHO. So why don't the majority of us spend our GS time critiquing various other religions? Mainly because it's not relevant. What most of us have in common was that we were in TWI. I don't give a d*mn about the Mormons, the JW's or Kabbalistic Judaism because I was not in those groups. TWI doctrine was sometimes used to justify abuses. At the very least the claims of near infallibility helped to keep many people in due to a false belief that "there was nothing else out there". Therefore, picking holes in TWI doctrine, or pointing out inconsistancies is appropriate. While there's nothing in the GS rules & regs against criticizing other religions, it's just not really the point of what GS is all about.

Does the position exist anymore? Martindale was Corps Director for most of the Corps' existance, other than the first few years when George Jess held the position. I seem to remember Harve Platig being called the Corps Director in a Way Mag article shortly after Martindale's ouster. I'm not talking about Corps or campus coordinators, who run the day-to-day indoctrination, of which there were always several under Martindale. Has the title "Way Corps Director" been retired, or does someone else hold the position?

What we control and what we don't changes constantly. Sometimes we make decisions that down the road result in unpleasant consequenses: we don't always see the connection. A few years ago my oldest son was an assistant department manager at the company that I now work for. His immediate supervisor, the department manager, was in the Nat'l Guard and would be gone for 2 weeks. This was my son's first opportunity to run the department on his own, to show the store director what he was made out of. So what did my son do? He spent the weekend at the lake with the rest of the family, sunbathing, without any sunscreen; he fell asleep and got seriously sunburned. Ended up in the hospital with sunstroke (or somethin'). He missed over a week of work. The store director got on his case about the decisions he made. My son maintained that it wasn't his fault. I agree more with the store director. You have to think about the consequenses of your actions. I believe that in any situation one needs to look at what happened and determine whether anything could have been done to prevent it, so it doesn't happen again. Will that eliminate all problems? Nope, because some things are outside our control!

Priceless

Since 401(k) is your money, it has to be "cliff". Profit sharing or employee stock ownership is made up of employer contributions, so would be different.

My problem with faith in general is consistancy, or rather the lack of it. Most folks that I know, or whose works that I have read, do not see the results of their faith on a consistant basis. There is always some "explanation" for why things didn't work out the way that they thought it would. And I'm not just talking about Christians and praying. I'm including Wiccans & their magick, reiki practicioners, users of natural healing methods, and any number of things. There is no way to predict when their trust in their "higher power" will be warranted. On the other hand, if you try something like praying or eating beets, and you get results enough of the time to make you happy, what difference does it make how you got there?

...or what Wierwille said was the "original"...Allan...drink some more coffee before you post again!