Oakspear

he was really good at organizing his suits in the closet

Not necessarily. Many of us, if not most of us who got involved with TWI had little or no exposure to any kind of systematic theology. We wouldn't know how to identify what was sound and what wasn't if our lives depended on it. Wierwille just did a materful job of marketing his product.

After Martindale's announcement of the lawsuit but before his ouster, he talked about reorganizing things so that the chief teacher and the president were two different people.

Excellent responses. Sometimes GSers who still believe some or all of PFAL get a little miffed at the criticism. Well, the criticism isn't always right, but it should make you think. If you don't want to think, that's a whole 'nother problem then, isn't it?

Most of then time the explanations made only minimal sense, if at all. Would people really wonder why there were flowers at one table and not another? Heck, most wayfers would assume that it was planned that way. How about the "no gifts to Way Corps" policy? The rationale behind that bit of legalism was that us peons were "bribing" the Way Corps for...I don't know what.

For those who can't understand why some of us put up with the legalism, one reason was that it usually crept up on you. Kind of like the urban legend about the frog in the boiling water, crap would slowly and incrementally get worse until you were putting up with .... that you never would have if it just popped out of the blue. Another reason is that often times (at least until the late 90's early 2000's) it wasn't consistant. One leader would be nice and reasonable, and then the next would be a lunatic. We changed leadership enough in our area that we had learned to ride out the bad leaders by laying low and not raising a fuss. I would say it was in '95 that leaders started getting consistantly more prying, and unwilling to let you lay low. Also, keep in mind, that each situation was unique. Every one of us had our reasons for putting up with what we did for as long as we did. For every one who is convinced that he or she got out just before things got really bad, there are others who got out earlier who can't imagine why you stayed as long as you did and put up with what you did. It's all somewhat relative.

Are TWI's doctrines any "kookier" than any others? I don't think so. There's weird sh#t in pretty much any religious system IMHO. So why don't the majority of us spend our GS time critiquing various other religions? Mainly because it's not relevant. What most of us have in common was that we were in TWI. I don't give a d*mn about the Mormons, the JW's or Kabbalistic Judaism because I was not in those groups. TWI doctrine was sometimes used to justify abuses. At the very least the claims of near infallibility helped to keep many people in due to a false belief that "there was nothing else out there". Therefore, picking holes in TWI doctrine, or pointing out inconsistancies is appropriate. While there's nothing in the GS rules & regs against criticizing other religions, it's just not really the point of what GS is all about.

Does the position exist anymore? Martindale was Corps Director for most of the Corps' existance, other than the first few years when George Jess held the position. I seem to remember Harve Platig being called the Corps Director in a Way Mag article shortly after Martindale's ouster. I'm not talking about Corps or campus coordinators, who run the day-to-day indoctrination, of which there were always several under Martindale. Has the title "Way Corps Director" been retired, or does someone else hold the position?

What we control and what we don't changes constantly. Sometimes we make decisions that down the road result in unpleasant consequenses: we don't always see the connection. A few years ago my oldest son was an assistant department manager at the company that I now work for. His immediate supervisor, the department manager, was in the Nat'l Guard and would be gone for 2 weeks. This was my son's first opportunity to run the department on his own, to show the store director what he was made out of. So what did my son do? He spent the weekend at the lake with the rest of the family, sunbathing, without any sunscreen; he fell asleep and got seriously sunburned. Ended up in the hospital with sunstroke (or somethin'). He missed over a week of work. The store director got on his case about the decisions he made. My son maintained that it wasn't his fault. I agree more with the store director. You have to think about the consequenses of your actions. I believe that in any situation one needs to look at what happened and determine whether anything could have been done to prevent it, so it doesn't happen again. Will that eliminate all problems? Nope, because some things are outside our control!

Priceless

Since 401(k) is your money, it has to be "cliff". Profit sharing or employee stock ownership is made up of employer contributions, so would be different.

My problem with faith in general is consistancy, or rather the lack of it. Most folks that I know, or whose works that I have read, do not see the results of their faith on a consistant basis. There is always some "explanation" for why things didn't work out the way that they thought it would. And I'm not just talking about Christians and praying. I'm including Wiccans & their magick, reiki practicioners, users of natural healing methods, and any number of things. There is no way to predict when their trust in their "higher power" will be warranted. On the other hand, if you try something like praying or eating beets, and you get results enough of the time to make you happy, what difference does it make how you got there?

...or what Wierwille said was the "original"...Allan...drink some more coffee before you post again!

Initially, the PFAL class had all three Foundational, Intermediate & Advanced combined into one. Later the "Advanced" was separated out. Still later, after PFAL was committed to tape, the "Intermediate" was separated into its own class. Yeah, eventually PFAL became, depite its origins, different than all its "parents", but I believe that the assumption that Wierwille combined or distilled or cut & pasted "the good stuff", or got rid of the "in-acrit" stuff is unwarranted. Many of us who hold this opinion apparently judge the truth or accuracy of what's in these precurser classes and books based on what Wierwille taught, not on an independent analysis and study of either material. ...and to correct what I said in an earlier post. I lumped Leonard's class in with Wierwille's in an "all classes are bad" category. I had forgotten that Leonard's class was just that: a class. It was designed to teach a few things, then send people back to their home churches. Wierwille's class was the very foundation of his ministry: 2 different things.

I too was impressed with the way the grounds were kept and the attention to detail and all that. In fact, much of what I now practice about orderliness and planning I got from The Way...as well as from my parents, especially my Dad. However, does a nice place and a slick presentation guarantee that what is being presented is any good? I would say not. Does a shabby store front and a less-than-professional presentation indicate that anything is lacking? Doubt it.

Regarding the name changes of various holidays: they just never had the balls to simply not celebrate them. They'd go on and on about how "devilish" this observance and that name was; what? it was less devilish because they called it something else? But no, they'd tell you how "pagan" and "off" Halloween was, or Christmas, but they'd do all the same things but label them differently. <_<

I'm sure that WordWolf will be along to clarify, but while the film/video class that most of us took was different in many aspects from Leonard's class, including gifts vs. manifestations, there is much to suggest that the original class that Wierwille taught was actually Leonard's class. OK back on topic then. What does that also say about B.G Leonard's $100-$130 "Full Bible Courses"? (Well - Duh!) I'd put Leonard's classes in the same category

Time for more important issues...The Mets vs. St. Louis!

congrats Tigers!

Do you think that Paul was saying anything different at his new location (the "school" of Tyrannus) than he was at his old hangout (the synagogue)?It seems pretty apparent that Paul was operating within the standard Mediteranean cultural norm, i.e. going to a place where public discourse was allowed and encouraged, like a synagogue or marketplace, and speaking his peace, while engaging others in discussion and debate. After three months in Ephesus, the synagogue wasn't as hospitable a place as it had been, few were believing and were bad-mouthing him. "School" is not necessarily what we in modern times would call a school. It is translated from the Greek word σχολη, which means a place free from labor, where one has the leisure to learn, not not a place with a cirriculum, textbooks and a schedule. Paul was going to a location where he could continue as he had been, without the opposition of the Jewish leaders that he had to deal with in the synagogue. There is no indication that there was a "graduation" or anyone going out formally as "ambassadors", just that after two years of teaching all of Asia had heard what he had to say. By the way, "Asia" is not "Asia Minor", now known as Turkey, as Wierwille stated in PFAL. Asia was a province, centered on Ephesus, that was only a small part of what we now call Asia Minor.

Here's some interesting discussion from the catholic Encyclopedia http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04764a.htm

There's a requirement that we all be negative about Wierwille & his class? :o I think that there are positive things to be said, and that there were benefits to be had, but everything in context: the topic of this thread is that God did not ordain that his Word be taught via a "class". If someone thinks that he did, then it shouldn't be difficult to come up with biblical citations to back up that opinion. I think a better case can be made that in early Christianity, i.e. The Book of Acts, the gospel was learned by associating with other Christians and by observing their example and hearing what they taught, every day of their lives. There was no graduation, no attainment of ultimate knowledge. Christianity was a community, and could no more be learned from a syllabus or sitting in a seminar than a new baby can become a functioning adult part of a culture by a stint in kindergarten.

Sometimes the numbers of people who were supposedly 'delivered' are tossed out. Even assuming that A) The 'deliverence' took place & B) The numbers are accurate - even the most optimistic estimates are just a drop in the bucket to those who claim to have been delivered, healed, born again, what have you, by other minsitries and churches. Not that PFAL was necessarily any better or worse than any other church, but the numbers are meaningless in that context. As far as the 'minimum amount of time' aspect; why is learning fast necessarily learning best?

Mwa-ha-ha-ha-ha....foolish mortal!

I never go away bro'....I'm walking up and down and to and fro in the earth...