DrtyDzn

Oops!

The inclusion of this in your definition implies that those who do not practice manifestations are unable to truly act out of charity. That would leave out a whole lot of good church going folk. Or is this just an added phrase to stick a little more theology in the definition? Jerry

In case that's not it either, look what I found! http://members.tripod.com/tiny_dancer/sskermit.html

AArrrgh. Today be the day

Genesis 9:6 says "Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made man." The word man in this verse is 'adam which means mankind. Any human bean whose blood is shed dies physically. God 'creates" spirit in a man, but the soul is "made". The word image does not mean it has to be spirit. If you look at my avatar, you will see my image, but it is not flesh and blood. The word means a replica or shadow. Man's soul was created the first time separately from the animals. There is something unique about it that only humans share with God. Perhaps it is the gift of speech, I don't know, but it doesn't have to be spirit. Murder is a sin. It applies to the physical death of humans, not spiritual. If a spiritually dead man is killed unlawfully, it is murder. The question is, does murder apply to a fetus the same as it would if the child were born and have taken its first breath. Jerry

Bliss-- yeah, my husband has a letter from VPW saying something like dreams are just dreams, they mean nothing. I've heard it taught that it was available not to dream, too. If you did dream, it meant you were out of fellowship! Joseph--Back in the day, people use to do hits of acid, and see visions like you see.

Yet in post 268 Tom wrote: Dr Samarin could tell no difference in the glossalalia he observed in Christians and non-christians. Perhaps the hokey "counterfiet" you saw was not the same as what he observed. Dr. made a big point that all he wanted was "to see the baby, I don't care how it got here." Meaning he wanted to hear them speak in tongues as proof that they were born again. I know there was more than one Saturday Night Live skit where the comics seemed to speak in tongues more fluently than some in my twig. I was amazed that they would all have been born again at some point in their lives. Now if glossalalia was just an innate ability of the human mind........ Jerry

Things will be hopping at the Way Arrghatorium when Rosalie Rivenbarrgh steps to the podium. "who will walk the plank?" Bill Warrgha? Not Donna Marrghindale! Perhaps Harrrgh Platig Whoever can parrot wayspeak best gets to break out the rum.

All killing isn't murder, even all taking of human life isn't murder if its part of God's judgement. The fact that there is forgiveness available for commiting the murder of sin, doesn't mean the sin shouldn't be avoided in the first place. Should we sin that grace may abound? God forbid. Would you agree that after the child is born and takes its first breath that God would consider that killing murder and a sin to hold one accountable for? Jerry

Do you mean to suggest that God would not hold someone accountable for their act of killing, because he just has to accept it as something satan has power over? Jerry

As long as the graphic pictures were held up out of Love, Jerry

Good question. Is it the actually act of killing the fetus that God would consider sin, or is it the motivation behind choosing the action? Without sin in the world we would not have to choose between the lesser of two evils. Jerry

This sounds nice and all, solves a lot of problems,butI can't think of how you could support the idea from the bible without a lot of speculation.Is there even any mention of souls descending? Jerry

If killing is Sin and an enemy, shouldn't we avoid it in our choosing? The courts may have decided whether abortion is legal, but they have no say whether it is a sin. If abortion can be shown to be defined as murder from the bible, from God's viewpoint, then we would know it is a sin and should be avoided, whether its legal or not. Just because Hitler's government made killing people legal, doesn't make it not a sin in God's eyes. Jerry

Welcome to the forum Greg. Please consider the possibility that there can be soul life present without breath life. Luke 1:44 "For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy." How can a 6mos. old fetus leap for joy if it doesn't have a soul life already before taking its first breath? Jerry

Here is the conclusion from the exerpt: The problem is that the penalty of life for life could be talking about the mother's life or the life of a child who has been born, not conclusively about the life of a fetus. We just don't know from this verse. So it can't be applied to abortion. Jerry

Love doesn't replace divine law, The law of the letter, but I think its supposed to fullfill the law, ie satisfy the spirit of the law. I don't see why love must always choose the maximum benefit for the greatest number. But this position does seem to match up better with the idea that we are no longer under the law. Jerry

There is a question as to whether Adam named the animals with the Hebrew language. There was only one language before the tower of Babel and God confounded the tongues. It is only an assumption that the original language that Adam spoke was Hebrew. Jerry

It is an assumption that Adam gave the animals these names because he saw them eating other animals. That he gave them names is in the biblical text, that he gave them those names or meant the names to reflect behavior is not a biblical text. It may be a logical assumption, but it is not biblical proof. Gen. 1:30 "And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth on the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so." Sounds pretty clear to me, every means every. Jerry

Whether the carnivores are supposed to eat meat or not, I couldn't say. But they must be able to survive on fruit or grain or something other than meat or they would have wiped out all the other species after they got off the ark. Granted there was probably a lot of dead flesh around, but you have to have the right kind of system to eat meat thats been dead for 40 days. Jerry

Jeremiah 20: 17 "Because he slew me not from the womb: or that my mother might have been my grave, and her womb to be always great with me." On first reading, I read this as meaning being slain in the womb, but I now see that it probably meant being slain after being born. The speaker does seem to have an identity in the womb though. Why else would there be a grave, albiet his mother's womb. Jerry

If you consider the bible's author to be God, then yes, the notion of tongues held the same meaning. That which we can't assume is that the practice of tongues in the bible is the same practice that is labeled glossalalia today. Jerry

The question is whether a fetus can have soul life without having breath life, or is it just growth life that we see before it takes its first breath, like the growth life of a plant. Calling it a babe seems to imply that there is already a soul present. Jeremiah 20: 14-18 speaks as though there was a soul present before birth. Perhaps the soul life is there from conception and the breath life is supplied by the mother in utero. Jerry

TOM -I am a little curious to know how he distinguishes between the two, one of them "not having happened for hundreds of years." I think he just classified the occurance of spontaneously speaking in an unlearned language as xenoglossia because it was different from what he observed going on in the churches. Whether he ever observed it, I don't know, but he must have considered it something different because of its rarity. TOM -"He determined that this was not even genuine language." Then how was I talking with someone a few weeks ago who spoke in tongues in a meeting & had a newcomer come up to him & ask where he had learned his native language? "His explanation of what it was sure fits well with what I observed going on in the ministry." Your perception, I can't argue with it. "I'm confident that he was studying the same thing we practiced in the ministry." We? We who? I admitted I don't know what you know. Perhaps you might consider that you may not know what others have known, especially when it comes to their spiritual lives. In my 10+ years of being involved with the ministry, I never saw an example of someone who spoke in tongues and someone else understood the language. That would have been cool. Even more cool if I had done it. Of course I would have probably been crazy enough to see if I could duplicate the phenomena. I did stuff like speak in tongues with a French accent and immitate someone elses tongue that I had heard often enough to be able to copy. TOM -Either devils can control people's organs of speech or they can't. Either people can speak in tongues or they can't. And, OMG, "revelation?" The audacity to think not only that it might require revelation to tell the genuine from the counterfeit, but that moi can hear from God! Well, I'm sorry, but if none of that is real, I'm just going to go pop a beer, & watch a movie, maybe commit some adultery Pop one for me !LOL The point is not whether the devils can counterfiet speaking in tongues, its whether its an innate ability of the human mind or something special only to those born again. If its only human, who needs to get devils involved? You are lucky to have an eyewitness to someone who understood someone speaking in tongues. Jerry

POND -I do not think this is about who took a breath or abortion at all, I think it is about stealing and hurting Gods people and how to deal with it. twi has everyoone convinced it MUST be about abortion what makes you so sure of that? Well, the topic is about what the bible says about abortion, and since that practice isn't mentioned in the bible, we are trying to determine if it can be classified as murder (a known sin). Are you saying that just because it may be in question as to whether abortion is murder, you have other biblical evidence that it is the sin of stealing and hurting God's people? Jerry