johniam

Y'all act like God won't spit in my direction if I am loyal to anything at all associated with twi. I'll be back later, but I have to go to work.

This is a response to part of a discussion in the seniors thread. This would be off topic there, but I wanted to specifically talk about abundant sharing.

In the aforementioned thread...

Waysider said...

I know when I left, I had apprehensions about what would happen because I no longer abundantly shared.

then outandabout countered with...

I know what happened when you no long abundantly shared - you had MORE money!!!

I'm not trying to diss what anyone said. I have been a believer in ABS since it was first taught to me by my first pfal class instructor. Jesus said I stand at the door and knock. Some believe the door is symbolic of the door to a person's heart, which can only be opened from the inside. It doesn't help anything when self appointed bill collectors for Jesus tell you God won't spit in your direction etc. There is scriptural evidence that God feels we owe him the "coin of our hearts", but that coin must still be opened from the inside.

In 1977 I had a job at a grocery store. I came in late afternoons and cleaned the butcher's equipment and the back area in general. Then I made up my mind to go wow. At that time it was $150. They wanted us to send it in advance to let them know you really were going. The job wasn't sufficient to get that, but I kept ABSing. Then, I was informed at work that they wanted me to stay there all night (the nights I worked) and clean the carpeted floor with a steam cleaner. It didn't dent the wine spills in that aisle, but it got me my wow money.

When my wife and I were courting I told her there were 2 things I demanded of her if we were to get married. 1) I wanted to have 3 kids and 2) I really really thought ABS was important and I needed her to be on board with that. We've never had an argument about it.

Getting back to outandabout's comment: I know what happened when you no long abundantly shared - you had MORE money!!!

OK, that's one way of looking at it, but my question is...

Why even believe in God at all if He can't even give the increase on your ABS? What CAN God do if He can't do that?

VP said it best. He said 9/10 with God's blessings on it will go farther than 10/10ths without. He also said tithing without recognition of God's goodness and love is sheer folly. What, exactly, is 'recognition of God's goodness and love'? How about just taking time to be thankful for stuff. I can be as grumpy and whiny as anybody, but there's much to be thankful for. Every single day is a gift from God.

If God doesn't directly do anything to bless your life, then religion is vain. All you get from going to church is the same false moral superiority that the guy gets from going to the bar. No difference.

I remember back when I was in my 20s/30s there weren't many seniors in any twig I was in. We gave them some love during fellowship, but didn't really want to hang with them other than that.

It occurs to me that in the late 70s the powers that were in twi were not seniors. Today, Rosalie is in her 70s and Howard Allen is in his 80s. Would that possibly affect the treatment of seniors in twi? They can't say it's their problem anymore because they are them.

Sweltering heat? It got down in the 30s at night during the 1979 ROA. The spirit of God is quite real. That trumps any human failure.

quote:

Second, there seems to be a defense mechanism built into some Christians that requires them to slander those who once embrace and later leave the faith as never having truly been believers.

I posted that you were no different than me. How could I "slander" you? Am I also slandering myself?

quote: Does it take faith to deny Zeus, Thor and Odin? No. Nor does it take faith to deny Satan. He doesn't exist. It takes faith to say he does. I reject that, and it does not take faith to do so.

quote: Christians or any other religion that claims "to know" for certainty anything is only peddling BS.

2 plus 2 = 4.

Raf doesn't say IMO he doesn't exist. Nor does he say I don't believe he exists. He's SURE! He says "He doesn't exist." So, by Oakspear's definition, Raf is "peddling BS". Call it WHATEVER you wish, if someone is sure that the devil doesn't exist, that's faith. We're speaking English here, correct?

I think Oakspear's comment (#35 on this thread) hit the nail on the head. Christians or any other religion that claims "to know" for certainty anything is only peddling BS.

This sounds like that line from the Kansas song 'carry on my wayward son', if I claim to be a wise man, then it's sure that I don't know. Hey, I like one liners.

Like I said, we all selectively reason. We're not robots.

Faith is believing in something you can't prove. You (or anybody else) can selectively reason all the way to Pluto and back. Then you can call it science or legitimate or anything else you want to call it. I don't make sense? So. You can't make sense out of God. Why should you make sense out of anything else?

I gotta recall something here that sort of relates. In Sept. of 1976 I went to a friend's house. He was at the time a jazz musician. He did not smoke cigarettes, drink alcohol, or do drugs, even though, being a jazz musician, he certainly hung with people who did all those things. He also did not believe in God. Neither did I at the time, so we got along. We were in his kitchen. He was going to drink tea and I was going to smoke a joint. Then the doorbell rang. It was a jesus freak. Now, even though my friend didn't believe in God, he wasn't afraid to talk to people about religion. So he lets this guy come in his house and sit on the sofa.

Pause that! I've gone door to door witnessing a lot. NOBODY ever let me come in their house and sit on the couch. I got some people who would lean out the door and talk to me, but NOBODY actually let me into their house. So, in retrospect, I'm guessing this jesus freak, who I would later learn was a WOW Ambassador, was sure that God was opening a door of utterance for him.

I was still in the kitchen thinking, "Why did he let this guy in his house?" I waited and waited and finally I lit up the joint and walked into the living room and sat down next to my friend. I did some theatre too, I looked at the guy like "What a weirdo!" The guy looked at me like he thought the devil himself had materialized in human form right in this guy's kitchen and walked into the room just to screw up his witness. He finally left.

Two weeks later (totally separate from the wow) I went to my first twig fellowship. Four months later I was a new student in pfal and went somewhere for the orientation meeting and GUESS who was there helping out? Yep. The WOW ambassador. He looked at me and did an OMG! I don't think he ever expected ME to be a new student in pfal. Maybe God was trying to show the wow that, NO, it wasn't the guy who let you into his house...it was the guy smoking the joint...THAT was the guy who wanted the word.

The jazz musician wasn't ever going to believe anything. Nice guy though. The last time I saw him was 20 years ago. He was doing OK. Still didn't believe in God.

I guess I'm just curious. Raf, when you took pfal, did you just hear about twi and go in deceitfully on purpose, or did you go out of natural curiosity and take it one fellowship at a time? Cause you sound like you have held your true beliefs since childhood.I'm not totally surprised, but I wondered about that after you posted that thread about faking SIT. Like I said, my friend the jazz musician didn't believe in God but he would bait people into conversing about religion just to be able to express his views contradicting it and he wasn't mean spirited about it either that I ever saw. You're right about one thing. Discussion about specific beliefs is probably meaningless. We both have our minds made up.

quote: and it brings to mind thoughts of the free-wheeling spirit of men like Tommy Crabb and Donnie Fugit

and the Wichita area. What a twisted clone zone the corps program was for such free souls.

It's people like THIS that, I believe, should have been left alone to reach the "unreachable."

Donnie and Tommy were just as "freewheeling" in twi as they would have been without twi. They CONSENTED to be in the way corps. They didn't have to clear it through you. Those years were probably the best of their lives. Donnie Fugit once referred to pfal as the "second greatest thing God ever did", the first being the giving of holy spirit in Acts 2. Yes, I was there.

In Jesus' time on earth there was no printing press, no radio, no TV, no internet, no planes, no autos, etc. So you think anybody who uses technology is somehow not of God? Technology is just a byproduct of humanity. It can be used to do good AND evil. It's incidental. So what if VP videotaped a 34 hour class on the bible? So what if he borrowed material from other Christians? He blessed a lot of lives, including yours!

You post endless threads about how f'd up VP was, which paint a dreary, depressing slant on everything that was/is twi, and, yes, if most GSers haven't been to a twig like fellowship in years or decades, then they'll conclude that sure, that's what twi was. Not me, buddy. I go to fellowships regularly. We still do manifestations of holy spirit, still do accurate teachings of the word, and still get blessed by all of the 'above'. Your portrayal of twi is NOT the twi I remember. The word still tastes like honey on my tongue, another Donnie Fugit expression.

How could you have spent 24 years in twi and NOT been blessed by God? Not possible.

quote: Key difference: I no longer claim a connection to a supernatural omnipotent omnibenevolent force who can do something about Miami if I pray with faith

You don't CLAIM it, but you still do it. You accuse Christians of calling you a fool if you disagree with them, yet you aren't any more kind to those who disagree with you. You think you're morally superior to me, but you're just another dime a dozen arrogant blowhard who thinks your unbelieving position makes you superior to those who disagree with you. Really, you're no different than me.

quote: No he hasn't. Just people, buddy.

Prove it! See, you CAN'T. You have just as much faith as me. So does anyone who has had any impact on science, history, geology, geography, meteorology or (most certainly) astronomy.

So what has your holy presence done to stop crime in Miami? You got some juicy crime down there St. Louis never thought of.

quote: I will not hold that book's words against you,

See? You are not only are a person of faith, you are "morally superior". "I'm better than all you Christians because I don't hide behind a book that calls someone a fool". You have all the smelly characteristics of religion, but somehow you're better than they are. Good for you.

BTW, I'm not attacking Raf, just criticizing his approach.

quote:

Somebody prays and gets a warm feeling and they "know" it's Jesus

But you can't prove it's not Jesus. Neither can Raf. You're just as faith based as johnIAM.

quote: I will not hold that book's words against you, but I will defend myself against that book's words. They have NOT stood the test of time. They are rather obviously a product of their time, offering no indication that they were written by anyone with a knowledge of science, history, geology, geography, meteorology or (most certainly) astronomy.

So you believe that "science, history, geology, geography, meteorology, and (most certainly) astronomy" are truth, or, at least, more credible than anything else?

Rev, 12:9 - ...called the devil and satan which deceiveth the whole world... (not just the "smart" people)

Take a number. You're just one person.

btw I live in Ferguson. Devil's been really busy here lately.

Me and one of my sons are going to see the Cardinals play the Marlins tonight plus the fireworks show. Should be good.

Few years ago we had a Father's fellowship. Once a month on Friday nights there'd be a teaching, then we'd all drink beer. The youngest guy in this fellowship (30 plus) had to get the first beer for everybody else. He had to walk from the living room to the kitchen then open everybody else's first beer, then walk back to the living room. What bondage! Somebody should've called the cops.

I didn't think those collaterals were disjointed. I always thought one of VPs strengths was how he sequenced stuff. In one collateral, the blue book, I think, he ended one chapter with "You are rescued now"! then the very next chapter was called "You are righteous now". He was good at that.

quote:

How did you feel when you realized you could only stay in their graces if you agreed with them?

I left.

quote:

Compare these 2 approaches:

A) How do I feel about the whole thing being a scam? Well, that's just it-I disagree it was a scam.

B) How dare you make this all about it being a scam? You're oppressing me for disagreeing!

I'll change the subject and bring up the drug culture, Mr Magoo and anything else I can

think of.

You'd get a lot more respect if you tried approach A a lot more and approach B a lot less.

Some of you come off to me as...How dare you disagree with us? We know it's a scam. So how dare you?

BTW, I'm not changing the subject. I'm contrasting and comparing. As your manner is you misrepresent me. Is that worthy of my respect?

We have a doctrinal forum for discussing such matters.

quote:

Are we discussing the drug culture or The Way International?

The original intent of this discussion is not only to illustrate how Way events were often staged but to explore personal reactions to realizing you were an unwitting participant to the staging.

In other words, how did you feel when you discovered or suspected you were being used to further a scam and that you were behaving in a manner that wasn't representative of the real you?

So if I don't believe pfal was a scam I don't get to post??? You're just as intolerant of being disagreed with as twi ever was.

Well, the trip's over. I'm not on facebook. I would have loved to see him, but I wouldn't be surprised if he stayed as far away from tourist stuff as he could. We got off the boat and there's this guy in a bear costume and a photographer asking if you want your picture taken with the bear. Huh?

Overall, the cruise was fantastic. My wife put it together as a 60th birthday present to me we could all share. She got online, made phone calls and got all 5 of us on it very cheaply. We checked and it would have cost more for me and my wife alone to go to New Orleans one way on a riverboat than it cost for us and our 3 kids to do the cruise, including airfare and what we spent on the boat.

We'd never been on any cruises before so we have nothing to compare it with. Security was just as tough getting aboard the cruise ship as it was at the airport. Also, they wouldn't accept cash on the ship. Our state room cards doubled as debit cards for whatever we bought. Most food was free, but alcohol and casino required those cards. Same for gifts and souveniers (sp). It lasted a week, Seattle to Juneau and back, over 2000 miles total. We also stopped at Sitka, Ketchikan, and Victoria, BC. We heard that the average age on Holland America cruises is 76. We hoped we'd be first in line a lot. It was OK.

Travel relieves stress on some levels, but creates it on others, if for no other reason than you're away from your comfort zones, but that was not as bad here. There was so much to do. The only reason we were at our staterooms was to sleep, other than watch DVDs. This boat has 10 decks. It's a big chunk of change to go, but add it to your bucket list. Lots of fun.

quote: "What's wrong with me that I don't have that?"

You DO have that. You've had it since getting born again, which happened before twi.

Remember the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. Anything you had before twi you still have.

In twi we were taught that true Christianity is not religion. Humor me. Even if that's true, religion does not delete true Christianity. We all have some of BOTH.

Sounds to me like you have guilt issues over having believed twi. Sounds like you are afraid you've somehow been penalized in your relationship with God. Like you're afraid Jesus is going to say he never knew you. Nonsense.

You have the same access to God. Jesus is still your advocate with the Father.

I've been married 25 years. Back during our courtship and early married days I sometimes felt like I was walking on air. But over time I still love my wife, but the sappy tingly emotions aren't there anymore. Maybe I'm just getting old, but I think that's true of our walk with God as well. If you've been a Christian 30, 40 years, then you've seen God work in your life: answered prayers, peace under pressure, fitly spoken words from brothers and sisters in Christ. It might not feel as new and exciting as it once did.

But God's still there, and you're still His.

Oh, BTW happy anniversary. 11 years tomorrow since you joined GSC.

My first post on this was a response to Kit's saying that a shepherd doesn't gather the sheep by yelling. IMO her saying was right on the money. You were the one who made a federal case out of that.

As for stage productions? Yes, it was there, but it was there in the drug culture too.

We have a doctrinal forum for discussing such matters.

So why did YOU discuss it thusly...

Yeah, I see where you are going. You're saying we were athletes and thereby should have profited from yelling.

There are several problems with that. The first, and not the least of which, is that the whole "athletes" metaphor being substituted for the warfare metaphor is not scripturally sound. Secondly, you are drawing a comparison between modern day sports culture and whatever it was they were doing in ancient Rome. Do I need to elaborate beyond this?

Oh, Magoo, you've done it again.

Yeah, I see where you are going. You're saying we were athletes and thereby should have profited from yelling.

There are several problems with that. The first, and not the least of which, is that the whole "athletes" metaphor being substituted for the warfare metaphor is not scripturally sound. Secondly, you are drawing a comparison between modern day sports culture and whatever it was they were doing in ancient Rome. Do I need to elaborate beyond this?

I didn't say I agreed with LCM's yelling. But he was right about one thing. We DO wrestle against spirits, not flesh and blood. How many evil spirits have YOU killed? Then what is this "warfare" you refer to?

I once had a professor who taught pre civil war US history. He was German. It gets weirder. He taught us that the word 'gringo' had its origin from the Mexican war. The last thing those Mexican soldiers heard before they were attacked was American soldiers singing a song called 'green grow the lilacs'. So "green grow" got transliterated into "greengo/gringo". Those soldiers sang that song before they killed in war. Nice. Bet some of those soldiers thought that was dorky.