johniam

Jim Plunkett

quote: The whole purpose of that booklet is to convince the readers they must give their hard earned money to The Way in order to receive the blessings of God.

I've still got VPs books somewhere, but I'm not going to do an archaeological dig to find them. Somewhere in CSBP VP says that tithing without recognition of God's goodness is sheer folly. How does that convince me to give to twi?

Yes, I'm sure other religions do this, as well. Then again, we're not really talking about what "other religions" do, are we?

Sure we are! In 'Christians should be prosperous' VP said that the usual way of raising money for the church only mortgaged the church's conscience to its heavy givers. Perhaps he was more "usual" than he thought. Waysider you have his stuff memorized better than me; is that where that quote is from?

quote:

Narcissists are everywhere, and they can be incredibly draining and challenging to deal with. Here are 7 things you need to know about narcissists, written from my perspective as a social psychologist and also inspired by my personal experiences with narcissists in my daily life.

1. A Significant Portion of the US Population are Narcissists

An estimated 6.2% of the US population suffers from narcissistic personality disorder (NPD), meaning they meet five or more of the following criteria according to the DSM-V: (as you read these, think about people you may know who might fit with the diagnosis)

-Has a grandiose sense of self-importance, exaggerating their abilities and achievements

-Has persistent fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love

-Believes that he or she is “special” and unique and should only associate with people of the same status

-Has a constant need for attention, affirmation and praise

-Has a strong sense of entitlement and an expectation of special treatment

-Is exploitative of others, taking advantage of them for personal gain

-Lacks empathy for others

-Is often envious of others or believes others are envious of them

-Regularly shows arrogant or haughty behaviors and attitudes

(This could be ANYBODY/EVERYBODY.)

Many more people do not meet all of the criteria for NPD, but may still exhibit narcissistic personality traits from time to time. For this reason it is difficult to know for sure how many narcissists might be out there!

2. Psychologists are Unsure About the Causes of Narcissism

Is narcissism an inherited genetic trait? Or is it something conditioned by parents and teachers during childhood? Is it associated with other mental illnesses? While the causes of narcissism are unknown, psychologists tend to favor a biopsychosocial model of causation that integrates biology and genetics with social environment and psychological adjustment. In other words, environment and society does play an important role in the development of narcissistic personality traits.

3. Narcissism is on the Rise, According to New Research

(the cults are on the rampage, they're after you and me)

Recent research in psychology shows that narcissism has been on the rise during the last 30 years, especially among young people. One study even showed that 9.4% of 20- to 29-year-olds exhibit extreme narcissism, compared with only 3.2% of those older than 65. Perhaps this is not a surprise in light of how our culture has shifted to emphasize social media as central to our identities, sense of self and self-esteem. Indeed, there is a direct positive correlation between social media usage and narcissism, meaning that the more narcissistic you are, the heavier your social media usage. Even the word ‘selfie’ and what it stands for has a rather narcissistic implication, don’t you think? Sadly, as narcissism has risen with the advent of Facebook, Twitter, and MySpace, too has there been a steep decline in altruism and empathy.

4. Narcissists Can Easily Slip By Undetected

Unlike people with other personality disorders or behavioral problems, narcissists can easily slip by undetected because they don’t appear to be ‘sick’ or ‘mentally ill’- They just seem to have an over-inflated sense of self-importance, a relentless need for attention and a lack of empathy. When you first meet them or get to know them, they might seem fun, energetic, outgoing and just a little egotistical, but this may or may not raise red flags. After all, it’s good to have high self-esteem right? Often they can lure you into their inflated self-importance and grandiose schemes and before you realize it, you’ve become involved with someone whose presence may be toxic to your well-being.

(this is actually called "mental illness") lol

5. Narcissism is Difficult to Treat:

(yeah, I guess it would be if EVERYBODY is one. Plagues are hard to treat, too)

Perhaps one of the most troubling things about narcissistic personality disorder is that it can be very difficult to treat with therapy because the clients are often in denial or completely unwilling to accept that they have a disorder. If someone truly believes that he or she is special, more talented and superior, imagine how challenging it might be for a therapist to convince him or her otherwise.

It is for this reason that people with narcissistic personality disorder rarely seek treatment, and usually only agree to therapy at the urging or friends or family members, or to treat other issues (such as anxiety or depression) that result from the disorder. And sadly many therapists also have to release their narcissistic patients when they reach an impasse and the patient believes they are fine and refuses to see the problem.

6. There are Ways to Tell if Someone is a Narcissist

If you suspect that someone in your life might be a narcissist, there are things that you can do in addition to comparing their behaviors to the diagnostic criteria listed above. I recommend the following:

•Ask Them Questions (Narcissists Like to Talk but not to Listen)

I learned from my partner intuitive sound healer Jimmy Ohm that the single best way to a spot narcissist is to ASK THEM QUESTIONS! Due to their inflated ego, they can’t help but share with you their exaggerated sense of achievement and accomplishments, their beliefs of how special and wonderful they are, and how everyone is so jealous of them. Even more so, narcissists like to talk, but they are usually not very good listeners. Often they glaze over when others are talking, only waiting for their turn to speak.

•Examine Their Social Media Presence

(nice thing about GSC is, you can't interrupt a post; all you can do is 'wait for your turn' and then do 1,000 word posts every time, but there's nobody here who does that, right?)

Given the positive correlation between social media use and narcissism, if you suspect someone might be a narcissist, one of the easiest things you can do is examine their social media presence. Are they always posting status updates and commenting on everything? Do they frequently talk about themselves, their plans and their achievements online? While heavy social media use alone is not a definite indicator of narcissism, it, if this person is always on social media and also meets some of the narcissism criteria then they might be one of them.

•Do They Involve You in Grandiose Schemes?

Narcissists have this way of convincing us that they know better and that they are the most capable person for any task. If someone repeatedly involves you grandiose schemes that never pan out, or is always talking about plans but ever actually following through, he or she could well be a narcissist.

•Are They Manipulative?

Narcissists are skilled at the art of manipulation and getting what they want out of people. I think this ties back their lack of empathy and belief in their specialness and superiority. Often, this manipulation feels like ‘mind games’ where someone tells you what you want to hear but then does the opposite, or when someone leads you on to believe something about them or a situation that turns out to be false.

7. The Best Way to Deal with Narcissists is to Love them From Afar

(for God so loved the world that he stayed the hell away, damn narcissists, who needs 'em?)

Often, the people close to us like friends, bosses, work clients or even family members can be narcissists, and it can be challenging to coexist in this space with them. If you identify someone in your life as a narcissist, the single best thing you can do is to love them from afar. Loving them from afar does not mean that you completely shut them out of your life (although this is an effective strategy for some, especially those in extreme situations), but rather, that you withdraw some of your energy and instead of actively engaging, you hold space for them in hopes that someday, they will change. To me, loving them from afar means that you recognize you are powerless to change this person, and that spending time with them can be toxic to your well-being. Limiting your interactions and time spent, not playing into their grandiose schemes and not allowing yourself to be manipulated are all perfectly acceptable strategies.

In the case of people you see regularly, like work colleagues, bosses, clients and close family, sometimes loving them from afar is a less viable option because you find yourself in constant contact with them. In this case, I recommend the following steps for co-existing:

•Practice Forgiveness and Compassion

It can be incredibly difficult to find compassion for someone who has no respect for other people and believes themselves to be superior to others. Even if they lack it, you can always find compassion because this person is clearly suffering terribly, whether he or she is consciously connected to the pain. Forgiving someone’s narcissism does not mean your are accepting or justifying their behavior, it just means that you no longer want to hold onto it or allow it to affect you. Remember, the way they act says nothing about you and everything about who they are. Do your best to forgive and not take their narcissism personally!

•Let go of the Attachment to the Outcome

Being a compassionate, nurturing person, I often see people suffering and I want to help them heal. I know I am not alone here. Unfortunately, when it comes to narcissists, we must learn to let go of the outcome. Narcissists usually do not think that they are in need of any help, believing instead in their own inflated perfection and superiority. Their behaviors, actions, words, and thoughts have nothing to do with you and therefore, being attached to the outcome or trying to change them in any way does not serve you and will only lead to more pain for you.

•Accept that You Gave this Energy Permission to Enter Your Space, and Learn from it

This is a difficult one, but it is true that our outside reality is a reflection of our inner space. So if you find yourself surrounded by narcissists, it is important to explore why you are in this situation and learn how to grow from it. Maybe you have underlying narcissistic traits that you are not aware of? Maybe you lack self-esteem and believe you are only worthy of narcissists in your life? Maybe you have been unwise in your decisions and the people you chose to make energetic agreements with? Maybe you didn’t realize how narcissistic these people were until it was too late? While their narcissism is definitely not your fault, allowing their energy into your space is your responsibility. By learning what brought you here and making changes, you can break out of this cycle.

•You Deserve Better

(allowing their energy into your space??? There's no such thing as spirits, right?)

Remember, if you are not a narcissist, then you deserve better than to be surrounded by narcissists! It is OK to assert this feeling and cut energetic ties to people who do not match your frequency. In many cases, this is a necessary form of survival. Many of us have been in positions of low self-esteem or believed that we did not deserve truly loving, caring people in our lives. If you have done this, give yourself permission to remove this agreement on the grounds that you DO deserve to be around compassionate, connected, loving, good people. Trust that you will meet them when you clear the space for them to move into your life.

I want to qualify something. Sure, some people are committed narcissists, while most people are sitting on the fence, not moving ahead with the greatness of narcissism. But this person is on a witch hunt for narcissists the same way Joseph McCarthy was on a witch hunt for communists. I'm supposed to ask people questions only to detect if they are narcissists? What questions? Hey, buddy! Have you had any fantasies today about ideal love? McCarthy's witch hunt. It didn't exactly stop communism, did it?

I heard Dr. Carolyn Rawlins got special treatment because of ABS. God may not be a respecter of persons, but people sure are. I'm sure other religions do the same thing.

quote:

Thank you for your reply. If you can articulate further, I'd like to hear what people you believe comprise TWI. How does your mind distinguish between "wayfer" and "non-wayfer" or "former wayfer", for lack of better terms, if you will? What people ARE TWI?

There is, surprisingly, a lot of diversity among former wayfers. That is, surprisingly for a so called "cult".

I really don't know much about current twi. Don't mix much with them. I can't help but believe that the people who comprised twi when VP was alive dramatically shifted by the time LCM did the purges (1994). The people who comprised twi when VP was alive were a) people who were already Christians who needed a break from religion, and b) people who wanted specific questions answered who liked what they heard (JCING, ADAN, RTHST). What a long interesting trip it was!

I'm sure current twi has those same elements, but the do what I say or else stuff? I have no use for it.

quote:

Johniam, If you're able to grasp the gist here, how do YOU define what TWI is? Is it people? Is it a corporation? Is it an idea? Is TWI the Ministry which the Word which is the Household of followers? Something else? What do YOU think?

It's always people. People make things happen. People also have differing views. People make corporations. People have ideas. People set goals. People define things. People are fickle. In fact, Jim Morrison was right; people are strange.

What I see in a lot of threads and posts is no acknowledgement of God. Only man's judgment like it's all there is. God will sort everything out. I sometimes feel like, directly or indirectly, I have to constantly remind people of that.

I recall that those of us who were committed to twi had a strong sense of pride about it. Sure, we had to go to fellowships regularly to keep that going, but it was there. Even today, I have the same sense of pride about being in the body of Christ. This world just seems to get crazier and crazier.

Some people here go as far out of their way as they can to keep saying that twi was insignificant, irrelevant, had no impact, etc. Then, out of the other side of their mouths, they keep harping on how evil and dangerous they think VP was. Can't have it both ways.

I think twi had plenty of impact, spiritually and culturally. Look how the world attacks everything twi stood for. The way they are using the gay marriage issue to demonize all Christianity. If the only media you ever listen to is from the world, you're going to distance yourself from Christianity as much as you can.

The world is always people too. They have their own standards. Their own ideas. Their own goals, just like twi. God wouldn't say to be not conformed to this world if it wasn't possible. You think that's all that's relevant?

Twi emphasized some things not others. Nobody can emphasize everything that's virtuous. Wouldn't be bite sized enough to assimilate. They got OUR attention, didn't they? See, if all you do is complain, you tend to only see negatives. Not just about twi.

quote:

I did horrible things while I was in, but I never wanted to be WC, because their level of commitment necessitated too much sacrifice of self. Not self sacrifice - I'm good with that - but destroying who I was as a person in order to be successful. I saw the things WC did - the marking and avoiding of entire families, the subservience, the boring clothes and hair and Stepford wives. I couldn't become THAT. And therefore I couldn't become upper level leadership.

This sounds like the 90s. That was when I checked out after 18 years. TWI wasn't at all like that before, not at root locations or out on the field. I don't even think it's that extreme now. It may have been heading that way since '89 or so, but that had to be their low point. If they had tried to keep that going up to the present day, they'd have nobody.

We're all going to be at the gathering together. God promises to wipe away all tears from our eyes. He couldn't promise that if we still had to deal with all that drama after the return. God will sort it out. Meanwhile, yeah, let's complain about everything.

Happy 98th.

The first time I heard that verse was in pfal. It was presented as the foundational verse for a 34 hour class. It sounded positive. I was interested.

Back in elementary school I was taught that some words are compound words. Bookkeeper. Helpmeet. Even the obscene word m#####f##### is a compound word. Let's go further. Some thoughts are compound thoughts, eh? John 10:10 is a compound thought. Thief/I (Jesus). Steal kill and destroy/have life and have it more abundantly. This is not the only verse which compares what God wants and what the devil wants, is it? I can think of one...

Eph.4:31,32 - Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamour and evil speaking be put away from you with all malice...

and be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted (another compound word), forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

Clearly, the devil wants bitterness etc. for us, and God wants kindness etc. for us.

quote:... So, John 10:10 - what sticks out for me is a whole lot of $#!TTY memories from the tine I was in TWI. The verse has lost all positive meaning for me.

Hey Jane, if God's so big that He can't be contained in a book, then how come He's so small that He can't heal your heart?

quote: Sounds like a typical in-rez Corps Coord trick. Get y'all together and then say you're not good enough and you will all be thrown out. Look sad or hurt by the pitiful bunch of [slaves] in front of you. Get them all ansty. Then "forgive" them and let them back, if they work harder/are more committed/drink more KoolAid.

I heard that the 6th way corps once had this happen. Several of them were threatened and some were actually kicked out, then the ones who weren't kicked out were told they could come back.

It seems to me there was a constant struggle in which, the top leaders wanted the standards and expectations of the way corps to be true out on the field as much as possible. But it never worked. Every so often a limb coordinator would give a serious as death teaching, or make you go to a limb meeting on New Years day or superbowl Sunday just to see who was really committed, but it didn't really change the morale or atmosphere on the field. At least, not where I ever was.

Over time, especially after the so called fog years, the top leaders figured out that if they were EVER going to achieve the result of meshing WC standards with life on the field, they would have to thin the herd severely. Enter the loyalty letter, the debt purge, the homo purge, the unproductive evil purge, (seems comical now), and, voila, life on the field was WORSE than the WC was when VP was alive. They had to go to twig three plus times per week, they had to account on paper for every 15 minute segment of their day, stuff like that. Reminds me of that bit in the book of Revelation where somebody is begging for death and it won't come; something like that.

But it STILL didn't work. All those people who bought that and tried to be obedient, thinking that eventually those of us who rejected it wound be on our knees in sackcloth and ashes begging for forgiveness, they themselves left twi and felt really stupid, especially when they would run into people like us. We were right after all, despite all the emphasis on loyalty to the ministry that taught you the word.

As for butt chewings? They are a natural biproduct of a strategy like that. (trying to force people on the field to act like people in leadership training)

quote:

These "Butt chewings" were everyday, almost constant, in some form or another, at varying degrees (these weren't in the form of loud words alone).

This is something I never had to put up with. Every so often, yes, but all the time? Man.

I'm going to go ahead and name this guy because I wonder if anyone else got in his crosshairs. He was the WOW czar for awhile. I already kind of had an attitude about him because of a videotaped teaching he did. He said that one thing that has hurt the wow program was war stories. "Why do you talk about having to eat macaroni and cheese on the wow field? WHY DIDN'T YOU EAT STEAK??? WHERE WAS YOUR BELIEVING???" I saw that and I thought, 'damn, glad I'm not a wow'. Later that same year LCM was trying to pitch the wow program and said, "Hey, do you need some more war stories? Why not go wow?"

But after I saw the videotape of this guy (Bob Matheson) there was a twig coordinator's weekend somewhere in Lake of the Ozarks and Bob was the special guest. During one meeting some of us (7-10 people) were sitting around a table and I made a comment about something and he points right at me and says, "There you go again! Talking about the word but not on the same page as me!" Again??? I had never met the guy before. Can't remember what I said or what I wasn't on the same page about, whatever that meant.

I don't have a positive opinion of him. But I'm sure twi didn't make just anybody the wow czar. Anybody here ever have a run in with this guy?

What if I'm a peninsula?

Not exactly.

H.E. Wierwille, Sec/Treasurer of twi died in 1977........age 70

Ermal Owens, vice prez of twi died in 1979...............age 69

And, in December 1979......vpee was 63

So, at WHAT AGE does one have to be to "understand how to deal with seniors?" :rolleyes:/>

I'm going to be a senior in a few years, I guess. I'm going to deal with me. I don't expect help from anybody and I don't plan to ever retire. BTW Ermal died in 1981.

quote: As to investing, neither one of them had a clue about prudent investing.

Then how does twi have more than 50 million dollars? Is this all RFR, or did they just sell a lot of bumper stickers lately?

I just had a Homer Simpson moment, one of those where he smacks his forehead and says, Doh!". :doh:/>/>

All these years we've been calling it Abundant SHARING. It wasn't sharing at all, it was GIVING.

Sharing is a two way street. ABS was a one way street. Everything went to HQ and nothing ever came back, nothing got shared.

It was called 'sharing' because we were supposed to give of our abundance, not of our livelihood. Nobody in twi said give till it hurts. Even VP made fun of that phrasing.

I have some other thoughts on ABS. In 'lifestyle of a believer' VP had scathing words about gambling, citing it as the opposite of giving. This led some people to call investing in the stock market 'gambling'. Not true. Part of VPs criticism of gambling was that "there is no increase of wealth". What is increase of wealth? Best example is agriculture. One kernel of corn can yield 3 whole ears. THAT is increase. You plant, you reap. This can be done with money also. Any company listed in the NY stock exchange has established a track record of increase of wealth. It's not like a slot machine, where you put money in and IMMEDIATELY expect an increase. LCM once said that he thought some people ABSed with a gambler's mentality. Perhaps he was right on that one.

As I said earlier, and some have concurred, there is no biblical or spiritual pressure to give till it hurts. We're supposed to give cheerfully. Even LCM said whatever you do, don't give out of guilt. Whoops, look at the time. Later.

WW, back off a bit. Please.

I rarely agree with John but he is entitled to his viewpoint, just as you are. You don't have to attack him at every instance.

As Ralph would say ... Peace! :knuddel:/>/>/>

Thank you. I appreciate this.

I'm responding to his deliberate provocation. He sees that as a personal attack. [Remainder of post deleted].

Moderator's Note: If you believe you are being provoked, report it. That WordWolf saw your "response" as a personal attack is reasonable. That anyone would think it wasn't a personal attack is not reasonable.

So..if I post an opinion you consider to be wrong...this constitutes an "attack"??? [deleted content]

Hello, Maddywolf. 148 posts and I saw none of them before today. I stand corrected.

Moderator's Note: disagreeing with a poster is not an attack. The post that was deleted WAS an attack. Deleted portions of THIS post constitute an attack.

Giving out of obligation - is just extortion.

Giving out of a thankful heart - is freeing.

And, though I have no Biblical evidence to support this, I feel that money given in love, from a thankful heart, achieves more than money given merely from obligation.

I know this thread is in context of tithing (money) but what about tithing YOUR TIME? Genuinely getting involved in people's lives in a helpful way - at Foodbank, hospices, hospitals, worthy charities? Involved in your church's outreach program (and I don't mean door knocking)?

What about giving your surplus THINGS - we have so much in material terms! How many coats, sweaters, pairs of shoes, etc do you have, and how many do you really need?

(I challenge myself...I reckon I could give away a tenth of my clothes and household clutter, and still have too much)

(Yep, I'm going to do some of that right now!)

Good point! Money isn't the only thing we can share or give.

John

You're arguing about a man made doctrine and defending it like it's an edict from on high. The whole "9/10^th will go farther...." thing is just some made up mumbo jumbo that sounds real official but isn't.

The 9/10 will go farther isn't a doctrine, it's HORSE SENSE! If God is really involved, then 1/10 will go farther. Faith as a grain of mustard seed, remember? If God is really involved, everything is better. This doesn't compute for you because you no longer believe in God.

when I was in TWI, I faithfully ABS'd 10 to 15% of my income the whole time I was there. I did not see any increase in my finances or the physical conditions in my life. I will concede that I don't know what was prevented by abundant sharing. I do believe that God takes care of us and blesses us because he is God and we are his children, not necessarily because of an amount on money we give to whoever. Why was TWI the magical place to give our money?

I no longer ABS and God takes care of me just the same. I am better off now regarding my income and lifestyle than I ever was when in TWI. The 15% doesn't go to TWI anymore and I haven't seen any repercussions. I think TWI used us.

I still give to certain charitable organizations by my own free will, whether I am blessed to or not, it's simply because I believe in what they are doing. Maybe I am blessed for that, and maybe I'm not.

I just don't think it was right for TWI to threaten us with catastrophe if we did not give them a percentage of our income.

*I don't have a problem with this. Sounds like you still try to acknowledge God in all your ways, including stewardship of money, and that God still honors this. ABS is between individuals and God. I never heard VP blur this. LCM didn't just threaten people with catastrophe about ABS, he once ranted about people not renewing their way mag subscriptions after the free one year subscription after taking pfal. He says you have money for HBO and Cinemax, but not for the way mag. He was mad, too. It's almost comical to think about now. The only bad consequences I, personally, have ever heard about coming to people regarding ABS are leaders spending ABS money on personal stuff. Makes me wonder about the current state of twi.

In the fellowship I now attend, we got some financial help in 2006, when much of St. Louis was without power for 8 days, to cover the cost of staying in motels. I'm sure we weren't the only ones, too. Also, in twi, I'm told that 85% of ABS went to HQ and 15% stayed in the limb. Other way around in the current fellowship. Nothing wrong with using ABS money to help people who have a need.

I like that you say, "Maybe I'm blessed for that, and maybe I'm not." In other words you trust God and you trust the people and organizations you give to and that's all you need to know and that's all anyone else needs to know.

I'm going to do these in order; may take awhile.

Anyone who gives out of free will, whether it's one percent or 50 percent or more or less, is Biblically justified in doing so. The standard for giving in the New Testament for Christians is not a percentage, but a personal consideration based on faith, speech, knowledge, diligence and love. (Read ii Corinthians 8 for the build up to and follow through on this instruction).

*Agreed! VP said in 'Lifestyle of a believer' that there are 3 things which justify one person giving money to another person. 1) for merchandise, 2) for service, and 3) out of love, which can only be opened from the inside, as I said in my first post, not out of coercion.

Using someone's level of giving as a basis for criticizing him or her for not believing enough or not loving enough is an intrusion on that person's privacy. The Bible never instructs Christians to evaluate someone else's practice of giving. Only your own.

*I'll dispute you a bit on this one. Jesus told his disciples that a poor woman who gave 2 mites gave more than the pharissees, because she gave all her living while they only gave of their abundance. Maybe he wasn't "criticizing" their giving, but he definitely made a distinction.

Related flashback

Unspecified hypothetical person: Michael Jackson is pist at you.

Eddie Murphy: So?

This is bizzare. I'll address this when I have time, just not now.

God Almighty CAN do that whenever He wants.

*And He wants to back up His word if people will believe it.

WHY SHOULD HE?

*Why shouldn't He?

Why even believe in God at all if He can't protect someone who jumps off the pinnacle of the temple

and trusts God to protect him from a fall?

*Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. ABS is not tempting God, it's proving now herewith.

God Almighty CAN do that whenever He wants.

WHY SHOULD HE?

*He shouldn't, for the above stated reason.

You're asking the wrong questions because you're looking at the wrong thing.

*Already addressed.

First of all, it's clear you're talking about a TITHE of 10%.

*Not exclusively; I said 9/10 with God's blessing on it will go farther than 10/10ths without. You said God can do whatever He wants. Couldn't He bless more than 10%?

That's a subject that's been covered in the Bible-with different conclusions than in pfal/twi.

Christians have NEVER been required to tithe, or even REQUESTED to do so.

*Show me in my first post where I said ABS was required.

Go ahead, check the entire New Testament.

*Jesus said give and it shall be given unto you. You think this doesn't include money? Why should God bless this or back it up? Because He has integrity. Because God is not a wrathful God. He wants to bless people.

There's requests for donations to help other Christians on a one-time basis.

There's a warning AGAINST required monies.

There's no required tithe.

So, to ask why God Almighty doesn't give you the results you specified on an action you

specified He had to give results on- whether it's a tithe or anything else-

is no different in substance than a foolish Jesus falling to his death from the top of

the temple because he would EXPECT God to do whatever, whenever.

*Just because YOU expect God to do whatever whenever doesn't mean He will, just to satisfy your narrow minded opinion of Him.

Chapter and verse, please. What verse says that Christians are required to give the Tenth/Tithe

and that God will guarantee to bless the other 90% if they do?

It was a self-serving doctrine that sure benefited the man who was on the receiving end of the 10%.

I can get behind that-but that has nothing to do with requiring a mandatory Tenth/Tithe

from the Christians.

Is He required to bless your life in the fashion YOU specify?

Is it YOUR will be done, or HIS will be done?

*If my God was as big of a jerk as yours, I'd think of getting me a new one.

quote:

You're asking the wrong questions because you're looking at the wrong thing.

One question. Wordwold, where have you been all my life? Finally, someone can tell me what questions to ask and what thing(s) to look at. Even twi was not THAT controlling.

Romans 7:12 - Wherefore the law is holy and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

The tithe is part of that law. Why wouldn't someone want to do something God says is holy and just and good? If anybody's looking at the wrong thing, it's those who say ABS is only about twi's money.