johniam

18 hours ago, Twinky said:

Really good to hear that, Johniam.

Is St. Louis Bible Fellowship an offshoot of TWI? Or some completely independent organization with never any link with TWI? A quick look at its website suggests not.

It's affiliated with Chris Geer. The whole scene is a lot less invasive than twi was (especially the last 5 yrs I was in twi (89-94))

31 minutes ago, Twinky said:

Most churches have at least two people counting the collection and opening the donation envelopes.  To double check the money - and to double-check each other.  In larger churches more people would be required. 

Of course, all TWI needed was a shovel to park it straight into the coffers.

Can't speak for offshoots.  Hopefully they are on a better footing... CFFM probably is, can't speak for any others.

I can. The fellowship I attend is part of the St. Louis Bible Fellowship. I've been told that back in the 80s 85% of abs went to hq and 15% stayed in the limb. We do the opposite. In 2006 there were a bad series of storms here and we were without electricity for 8 days. It happened in July when the temp was 100 degrees or so. Pretty much everybody on our block had to waste food. Some of us had freezers full of food. What do you suppose it smelled like with all those trash dumpsters at the curb. We spent 5 of the 8 nights in motels. We also received a check for several hundred dollars taken out of abs. I'm guessing we weren't the only believers who got that. Never got anything like that from twi. There are places in scripture where believers helped other believers in need. (Acts6:1-6, Acts11:27-30)

All that is irrelevant. I answered your question.

My personal strategy about tone and decorum is, if you can't stand the heat, then stay out of the kitchen. Other posters have done that regarding me and vice versa. As an aside, I think GSC has a lot going for it. That Jehovah's Witness site was awful sometimes. No restrictions there. Transnet wasn't far behind. I wonder how many lives would be in danger if there was an al kaeda site with GSCs kind of open discussion.

When someone attacks you, you can either "flee in fear", or respond in kind. That's just human. People are going to do that.

quote: Does the GSC have a purpose? I believe we all agree with the statement that the GSC "exists to tell the other side of the story." But let's continue from there.

WHY tell the other side of the story?

To inform others so they can make informed decisions.

WHAT decisions are we informing them for?

The decision to leave twi if they are in,

the decision to leave twi-spinoffs if they are in,

the decision to leave twi-doctrine if it is in them.

If this really is, by consensus or otherwise, GSC's "mission", I don't have to agree with it 100%. 

I never heard Walter say that, but LCM titled a SNS teaching march forth one time. He told the joke and claimed he got it out of Boys Life magazine. IMO that joke belongs on Hee Haw when the fence board hits somebody in the rear.

I go with Paul, also. If there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christians are the biggest suckers on the planet. (1 cor 15 paraphrased).

On ‎8‎/‎21‎/‎2016 at 8:59 AM, Bolshevik said:

And it's not spying if someone else plants the cameras.

Your thoughts are not private, and are being monitored, you can and will be punished, is some of the effect.  I think it was strongly implied as well that everyone's thoughts will be revealed at the Bema as well.

 

It implies your relationship with God and yourself is an open book. 

It implies leadership has special favor with God over the follower.

It implies you are too inept to make your own decisions and your thoughts need monitoring.

It encourages people, both leader and follower, to act like bumbling idiots.

 

 

 

Did Christ's accomplishments pay for anything?

I remember LCM use to say the devil can't read your mind. You don't have to read someone's mind if their nonverbals (also called body language) are plain enough. The reason they're called nonverbal is that the channel of communication is nonverbal, however, a verbal message is still required, otherwise there's nothing to communicate.

Example: a turn signal on a car. In and of itself, it's nonverbal. It's a flashing light on a moving object. But we all know there is a definite verbal message behind it. This vehicle is turning right, turning left, or partially or fully disabled if both are on at the same time.

The nonverbal channels in human communication include facial expression, tone, volume, or inflection of voice, posture, hand gestures, eye contact, or lack of it, and things like that. We can tell a lot about each other by observing those things.

There was a commercial for Coors that ran for several years during sporting events. In it, a woman is seated at a bar as a very attractive man walks near her. She says anxiously, "I'm Alex, are you Brad?" Guys says no, she says blind date. All of a sudden a loud bright yellow car pulls up driven by a man with an arrogant look on his face. He hits himself with breath spray, his license tag says 'THE BRAD'. The woman slumps down in her seat. The first man, noticing all this, gets up and walks up to Brad who had just entered the place. Man says, "You must be Brad." Brad cockily affirms, "Oh, yeah!" First man says with hand extended, "I'm Alex." Brad's facial expression becomes disturbed, bright yellow car squealing its tires in its haste to exit.

The verbal communication from Brad is 4 words, the 2 on his license plate and the 2 he spoke. Everything else you know about him was nonverbal. The commercial did an effective job of saying don't be that guy...mostly nonverbally.

But nonverbal channels won't reveal everything. God can reveal what someone is thinking or intending. I don't call that mind reading since God is the one doing the heavy lifting.

So, I'm asking Johniam, so what if DWBH wrote in a way that praised VPW in that book, The Living Word Speaks? (I have a copy). That was then. This is now. Over time he changed his views. He woke up. Like many of us here.

So what that I wrote a Way magazine article long ago that encouraged people to study PFAL as if it contained THE WORD OF GOD . That was then. Over time I changed my mind after I gained new information. I woke up. Life is a journey.

Some people change when they learn new information, new facts, have experiences that show them the error of their ways or that something better for them awaits.

I suspect that it is hard for others not to change when new facts and understanding comes to them is because there is some kind of payoff for holding onto the old view. Or they fear what will happen if they change. i.e. they might look bad in other people's eyes.

Let's celebrate the fact we can change, learn, grow and not be ashamed of the process.

I'm not afraid to change, I merely believe that what you want me to change TO does not compute. I've expressed my reasoning behind this right on this thread. You don't have to agree. Neither does anyone else.

The sentence before I quoted DWBH said "people are fickle". That sentence was the sole basis for the quotes. ALL people are fickle. Weakness of the flesh. Sin nature as usual. Of course he and everybody else have the capacity to evaluate a situation, even without any new information, and change opinions.

I'd like to ask DWBH a question. It has nothing to do with anything previously discussed on this thread; I'm just curious. Back in the day, there was a rumor going around among the St. Louis area believers that Eldridge Cleaver, the black panther leader, was taking pfal, and that YOU were undershepherding him. That's got to be bogus, right? But, who else was going to undershepherd a guy like that? LCM? RFR? I can't even picture Lonnell Johnson doing it. Did anything like that ever happen?

[Mod note: Please, learn how the quote function works. It makes reading so much easier, and it is there for that purpose.]

Perhaps the fallout of POP had more to do with triggering alarms in the heads of some folks – maybe a wakeup call to discernment. At some point(amount of time to reach the tipping point will vary for everyone) I think many folks looked at the whole mess and said "this is bogus".

The reason I still value VP and pfal is because of my relationship with God, not VP/twi. People are fickle. Ralph wrote a chapter in that book 'the Living word speaks'. It was called 'Principles of church administration and the successful Christian'. Lots of stuff in there about leaders causing divisions in the church. In the last paragraph, he writes, "The untiring selfless efforts of Dr. Wierwille to further the work began at Pentecost serve as the greatest examples of faithful Christian leadership today." That was then, THIS is now...

All dictor accomplished with his life was wind up drunk, possessed by cancer spirits, an unconfessed and never convicted serial rapist and sexual assaulter, a pathological malignant paranoid narcissist, and sociopathic liar to the second he died. The three amigos are alive and helping people daily. Dictor is dead and rotten in his waterlogged shrine at the farm. Thank god.

But, we're all capable of this. That's why God sent Jesus Christ. We didn't deserve Him, we NEEDED Him! So continue to list VPs so called sins like you're NOT being sodomized by satan.

Hey! Did I ever tell you guys that I got delivered unto satan? I was told this not long after being forced out of twi. It's possible that whoever told me this was just messing with my head, but suppose it's true. In scripture there are 2 stated outcomes from being so delivered...1) the destruction of the flesh, and 2) learn not to blaspheme. Well, almost 22 years and my flesh ain't destroyed yet and whatever twi currently views as "blasphemy", I have probably expressed here at GSC more than anywhere else. Ironic, isn't it? Like Ralph once said, "Didn't f'ing work, did it?"

[Mod note: "Sodomized by Satan?" Come on, man.]

Why is it that when people want to exalt the image of Wierwille they so often default to Biblical parallels?

He wasn't a Biblical figure, he was just some guy who ran a heavy handed religious cult from a tiny cornfield in rural Ohio.

Like I said, POP fallout did not get rid of the body of Christ (the church). That's us. We're all biblical. I know you got that memo once upon a time. You must have shredded it decades ago.

I know of one detail that was changed in JCOPS. In Peter Bernegger's way mag article he claimed that Jesus was born in 7BC. JCOPS says it's 3BC.

TLC, no one has a problem drawing Wierwille apologists out. There is no need to resort to tricks. The only real challenge is getting them to shut up.

AMEN!

You don't want to go in my backyard now. Storm knocked a large tree branch into the apex of my garage. Waiting for someone to repair it.

Again, when I posted this, I was curious about how this letter affected WC. I even wonder what Researchgeek and Catcup thought of it. They are research people themselves. They HAD to be privy to this. But, thanks to a few individuals, I could not possibly add any more drama to this than has already been submitted. (Penworks herself responded to my post and didn't seem to infer any evil ulterior motive from it) No, I don't believe that VPs thinking was twisted, but I wasn't going to go there in the name of staying on topic.

'Your kind of people' means that most people here don't value VP. While I still do, you have a right to your opinion.

John was not referring to enlarged egos when he said "your kind of people". He was referring to his refusal to tarnish the image of VPW and our drawing attention to things that have been hidden from many past and present TWI members. It seems to ire him to see people refusing to exalt VPW and his "teachings". This has clearly been John's modus operandi at GSC for the past decade and a half that he has been posting here. It appears to be impossible for him to consider that he, too, was scammed, just like the rest of us.

Sounds pretty self righteous. So, in your holier than thou opinion, anybody who chooses something different than you on this, is incapable of evaluating the information properly. Whatever.

Just for the record, I believe that the adversary used these three men in an attempt to 'sow discord among brethren'. It failed because VP wrote that letter and it was heeded. As for the events following POP, yes, the adversary was successful at sowing discord among brethren, but he didn't get rid of the body of Christ, or the rightly divided word of God.

Those men listened to the same deceiving spirits as the ten spies did, who gave an evil report of the promised land. Those same ten had seen the power of God up close. They crossed the Red sea, ate the manna, all that stuff, but when it came time to honor God, they crapped out. They had "facts" to back up their position, but God wasn't pleased with them for it. Same here.

David wasn't perfect but he was the standard. Yes, he was on the palace roof one day and he saw Bathsheba, got a boner, and you know the rest. Was that the only thing like that he ever did? He was king for a long time. The only reason this was relevant was because he deliberately arranged for Uriah the Hittite (one of his faithful, honorable men)to be killed. There were consequences for this. But, in the books of first and second kings, David was the standard. Any time a king was good, it says he "did that which was right in the eyes of the Lord like David, his father". All the soap opera stuff and the sex scandals were totally irrelevant to God.

You want to dedicate your life to cursing a dead man? Drag.

[Mod note: Edits here were for spelling.]

Ironic that this time it was Waysider who took the thread off topic. What I posted was relative to the topic and I didn't even dispute the premise that VPs thinking was twisted, but, one by one, you guys want to make this thread about me. Whatever.

[mod note: Nothing Waysider said was remotely off topic. He appeared to be trying to persuade johniam to look at the material from a different perspective. That's the definition of being on-topic]

You're going to see what you want to see no matter what is actually said or written.

Most people here act like GSC - GOOD! VPW - BAD. I concluded that those guys would fit in well here after reading the letter. Sounds like the quotes VP included in the letter represented their position accurately. So what?

OK, I'll chime in. Of all the letters I've read, one really stands out. The one dated Oct. 20, 1978. It concerns 3 men who started in residence in the 8th WC, were assigned to do research, and wandered off the reservation. I'll spare you my take on it, but I can't help but wonder...these 3 men really seem like "your kind of people". Their conclusions would fit in fine with most of you. Where are they now? Are any of them here?

The 3 men are Peter Bernegger, John Fanning, and Marty McRae. The letter is 6 pages long. Oh, and it's upside down. I had to invert the monitor of my computer to read it. All the other letters are right side up. I was able to print the letter. I couldn't help comparing this letter with Passing of a Patriarch. The last paragraph of the letter (summary and conclusion, lol) is very telling. After making his case against the men, VP admonishes..."Hide this whole affair in your learning heart and do not speak to others about it, not even Corps. Close the lid and throw the key away."

This was heeded. I never heard anything about this. I remember Peter Bernegger had an article in the way mag about the Christmas star and I always wondered why I never heard his name after that, but as a non corps, I felt as informed as anyone about ministry stuff like that. I never had any hint that something like this had happened.

That situation easily had just as much potential to break up the ministry as POP did, but it was never leaked. POP was definitely leaked. I know that POP was read to somebody in April of 1986. I understand only 12 or so people were intended to hear it, but it was leaked. I went to ROA in 86. 20,000 people there, seemed like fellowship as usual, then less than 1 month after that I was on a date and the girl told me that someone had reproved the BOT. Sounded disturbing. Couple weeks after that there's a meeting. Limb leader was there. Damage control. Confusion. "Everybody" was an expert on what was "really" going on. Ministry was never the same after that.

If someone had leaked the 6 page letter back in 78 the same thing could've happened. Anybody remember the letter? The situation? Just curious.

There was an 8 year old girl in the group who was absolutely fearless. On one line they encouraged people to jump off the tower backwards and turn upside down if they wanted. This girl not only jumped off backwards, less than 50 feet from the start she leaned back with her arms and legs extended as if to say, "Hey, look at me!" and continued for most of the rest of that line like that. Those who didn't weigh much didn't even have to brake themselves. At the end of each line there was a 2 foot thick body sized pad plus a restraint on the line 20 feet away from the pad which slowed everybody down just in case. At times we were going up to 50 mph. Easy to get mesmerized and forget to brake yourself.

My daughter did that. She liked it. She said there were tasks that had to be performed and she had an hour and a half to do them and she didn't. Something like that.

quote: So, I see all this stuff going on, and I've read all the stuff about the years under Martindale (which I didn't go through) and I think to myself "Oh my God. It's happening again".

Those folks don't learn very well.

You could have put this in about the way, but here is fine...I think. Yeah, trust and obey God, but not necessarily people.

No, but I saw them at times. Other than ziplining we did all the boring stuff. Upper Dells boat tour. Daughter did Wizard Quest. We all spent a day at Noah's Ark water park. Brutal weather that day. My wife is disabled. Can't do a lot of things. We had fun. The place reminds me of Branson, MO.

My family and I vacationed at Wisconsin Dells last week. My elder son and I went ziplining. This is where you get to an elevated platform, wear a harness, helmet, and thick gloves, attach a pulley to a thick cable, and, in an upright sitting position, ride down the cable to a lower station for up to 1000 feet and sometimes 40 feet in the air over trees and water. WOW, is that fun! The last time I'd done anything like that was 30 years ago (I rode the Scorpion roller coaster at Busch Gardens in Tampa). Since then I figured I was too old for that kind of nonsense.

But my son really wanted to do it. I was surprised a bit. In 2005 we went to the south rim of the Grand Canyon. The plan was for me, my son, my brother and his wife to walk down into the canyon and back over a few days' time. My son took one look out over the expanse of the canyon and changed his mind. Then 2 years ago he flew in a plane for the first time. He had a window seat, but kept that sliding plastic thing down so he couldn't see out the window. He didn't show any nervousness ziplining.

Myself, on the other hand, very nervous. After paying for it, then signing waivers releasing them from all liability, I was waiting for it to happen and I saw a sign titled 'restrictions'. One of them I was guilty of. No heart conditions. I had a heart attack in January. They fixed what caused it, but I now have 6 stents, a pacemaker/defibrillator device, and several meds. I didn't miss much work and I feel good and the doctors have all given me a thumbs up when I see them, but I was concerned, although I didn't say anything.

This place has 7 ziplines. It was like playing golf; you just follow the course until you're done. The total time we were actually in the air riding the cable was less than 5 minutes for all 7 lines combined. There were 15 of us starting out plus 3 employees. Two of the employees always went first and they would catch every paying customer as they came down the line. Then the 3rd employee would make sure everybody's harness and pulley was safely set up, then she was always the last one down.

I was most nervous jumping off the first tower. I wasn't afraid to look down, but I had trouble not twirling around. The thick gloves were for braking and keeping yourself from twirling. There's a synthetic cable going vertical from the pulley to the harness at your midsection. As you ride down, you hold that cable with your non-dominant hand and grip the cable the pulley rides on with your other hand. About 3/4 of the way down you grip the cable the pulley rides on as hard as you can. This brakes you, slows you down. The rest of the time you use the same hand to keep you facing forward. By the 6th line I had mastered keeping myself facing forward. It may sound confusing but it isn't once you actually do it.

The ad for this place said it was for ages 4 to 80. I was the 2nd oldest. There was a 66 year old lady in our group. Three people did not finish. One was a 5 year old boy. His parents were in the group and he rode down one time, but he was just too scared so they drove him back to the starting point. Another guy was kind of large bodied (even more than me) and he rode once and no more. Another guy wasn't scared, but he'd had both knees replaced and couldn't walk up the stairs on each tower. So he left after the second ride. The stair climbing was the most strenuous part of the whole thing. It was 90 degrees out. The whole event took 2 and 1/2 hours.

I was concerned about the 'no heart conditions', but at no time did I feel vulnerable. I thought I'd want to take a nap after it was over, but I felt so charged up with adrenaline that I didn't want to sleep. I definitely give it a thumbs up. I wouldn't ride the Scorpion of even the Wild Mouse or Disney's Space Mountain anymore, but I'd do ziplining again.

I didn't go on the political forum much, but I remember reading several posters' concern about it on other forums. Excathedra once posted that she was talking in her sleep about a conflict between Rocky and Zixar and her husband heard this and thought she had become interested in pro wrestling.

I think the reason posting is down may be that some posters feel they have said all they can say.

Hi Oldies.

I was a big Jefferson Airplane fan. Sad to learn that Paul has passed on. He had heart problems; heart attack both last year and last week. He was 74.