johniam

I hope I misread this - - because we don't name call here.

Yeah, I was referring to myself.

Loon.

Thank you. He married my wife and I. We knew he left twi; exchanged emails several years ago. He was always nice to us. Sad.

Was the fall of Jerusalem in the sixth century BCE REALLY God's immediate judgement on OT people? Is it REALLY irrelevant to us today? You say I know this. What do I REALLY know?

I know this. Paul wrote in Romans 15:4 that the accounts of the fall of Jerusalem were written for our learning... for OUR learning. According to Wierwille all of God's wonderful matchless Word in the Old Testament and in the Gospels has been totally irrelevant to US since the Day Of Pentecost. Yet here in Romans, written AFTER the Day of Pentecost, Paul, the man who received the revelation of the mystery, tells us that everything written before-time was written for US to learn things from!

Wierwille taught in Power for Abundant Living that Romans 15:4 says the Hebrew Bible, which was all that had been written before Paul, was written FOR us, but not TO us, therefore we can safely ignore whatever parts of it we don't like. In PFAL, Weiwille was forcing Romans 15:4 to mean the exact opposite of what it actually says. If you stop and carefully examine what Wierwille taught, he often desecrated the Word of God that way. Romans 15:4 tells us that the accounts of Jerusalem's 6th century BCE fall were written for US Christians, living in the same time as Paul, to learn something from. What are we supposed to learn from them?

We have to have a little background first. Salvation for Israel in the OT was the Exodus from Egypt. Israel was saved BEFORE the law was given and the covenant of Sinai was cut. People did not have to work to earn salvation in the Old Testament. After the Exodus, they were automatically born into the covenant community. Keeping the law was NOT a means to salvation, it was how saved people were supposed to behave out of thanksgiving for their salvation. Sin did not automatically exclude a person from the covenant community. Sacrificial atonements freed them from the consequences of their sins. Those atonements were symbols for the full atonement that would come with the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. The heart of the law was not for people to keep all the picky little details, the heart of the law was for people to extend the same mercy and righteouness toward others as God had extended to them in the Exodus.

Time went by, the united kingdom of Israel was set up (later to be divided into the kingdoms of Israel and Judah). God had his symbolic home in the Temple at Jerusalem. Because the leaders of Israel led their people out from under the covenant, Samaria, the capital of Israel fell to the Assyrians in 722 BCE, but Jerusalem miraculously escaped the same fate.

So the leaders of Judah taught their people that they were invulnerable because God's Temple was in Jerusalem. They could never "lose their salvation" the way the ten tribes of the north had, whether they kept the heart of the law or not.

So what was going wrong in Jerusalem? First, according to Isaiah 9:16-17, it was the leaders who were responsible for the problems. It was not the "leaves on the tree" failing to run the classes strictly enough. It was the leaders' hypocrisy, speaking the truth of the law, but behaving lawlessly. According to Jeremiah 23, the hypocrisy was exactly the same as TWI's... adultery... teaching that people are to be loved and things to be used, but using people and loving things.

The prophets told the people of Judea that they were immune to having the same judgment fall on them as had fallen on Samaria, because God's Temple was in Jerusalem, and God would NEVER let it fall, even if the people didn't keep the law. The people didn't reform, and Jerusalem fell to the Babylonians, and the Temple was destroyed in 587 BCE. Israel has never fully recovered since then.

As Christians we were saved when we received the gift of the Holy Spirit under the new covenant, not by works, but by grace through faith. After we received salvation, we received a law that we are supposed to keep out of thanksgiving for our salvation. That is the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, written on the tables of our hearts, and it does NOT contradict the 10 commandments.

Wierwille taught us that grace freed us from having to keep any law whatsoever. We can sin however we want to, whenever we want to, and we will be still be invulnerable to the consequences of sin. That just ain't so. When we fail to keep the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, we walk out from under the protection of the new covenant. What will that mean at the bema? Only Jesus Christ can say. But we saw the fruits of Wierwille's hypocrisy, the "covenant community" of The Way International was destroyed, as surely as Jerusalem was destroyed in the 6th century BCE.

Love,

Steve

In the grace administration, we have incorruptible seed the OT believers never had. David prayed that God wouldn't take holy spirit from him. (Ps51:11) In Acts 15 Peter called the OT law a yoke neither we nor our fathers were able to bear. (v.10) There was no guaranteed eternal life in the OT. Yes, I agree twi lost its community and VPs actions had something to do with it, but that doesn't mean VP wasn't born again. Doesn't mean pfal wasn't teaching the word of God.

I never said anything even remotely similar to that. My comment was in reference to dispensationalism, a concept that Wierwille called administrations. It's a (non-Biblical) methodology that compartmentalizes sections of the Bible in order to absolve oneself from the mandates of other sections. I suggest you go back and read what I said more carefully.

I thought VP made his case very well. There are scriptures that blatantly contradict each other if they're addressed to the same people under the same rules. By denying this, you "absolve" yourself of having to rightly divide the word. Or even believe there IS a word of God. VP thought all that through. He was right about that one.

This is only applicable if you accept dispensationalism, as set forth by Darby. Wierwille called them "administrations". Same thing, different name.

So you don't want to be in the body of Christ anymore because you'd have to share space with VP...and millions of others? You'll get over it.

I was told today that he has fallen asleep. Anybody know anything about this?

quote: Again, what gives you the right, or even just the "insight" to know what's in someone else's heart?

Excuse me, but there are many here who seem to know exactly what was in VPs heart.

Steve, thank you for opening up. I feel like I know you better. Those quotes from Isaiah and Jeremiah ignore that we today are members in particular of the body of Christ. We have eternal life guaranteed. Those folks in the OT didn't. God allows many unspeakable things to be done, even by born again ones. That doesn't impact incorruptible seed. From God's pov all mankind is evil from youth. We're dead. His mercy allowed Christ to enter the world sinless, live a perfect life, voluntarily die to pay for our sins, and return for us in glory. God's immediate judgment on OT people is irrelevant. You know this.

You said in the previous post that your respect for VP/twi was turned inside out when a woman told you face to face that VP propositioned her. Next thing you know, VP is not a Christian. You're not the only one here who snapped like that. You never had to do that. I can see that you love God. Again, some things only God can sort out.

This is not painful for me. You probably think my conscience has been seared with a hot iron. Whatever. Just a few questions. You say that, well...

quote:

We got upset when Wierwille was criticized because Wierille taught us to identify with HIM... Wierwille never taught us that our primary allegiance should be to Jesus Christ, and HE is the one we should identify with. Wierwille stole the thankfulness, the honor and the glory that we should have rightly been giving to Jesus Christ and took it for himself. Wierwille was not Christian. He substituted himself for Christ in our estimation. He was an enemy of Christ.

I never thought VP was Jesus. OK, specifically what did you do to make Christ the object of your allegiance. Specifically, what PEOPLE are involved. Sounds to me like you scrapped VP and now have the same "allegiance" to other people. God called us to a body and Christ is nobody's twig leader; He's seated at the right hand of God. SOMEBODY has to be your twig leader or where you get your information from. VP was always saying "I didn't die for you". He said he represented Christ but so does every Christian minister.

You and others must also believe that multiple centers of learning causes confusion. You and others here seem to believe that any professional person, Christian or not, who says anything about cults is speaking the gospel. So, when people like me show up with a different center of reference, this is a problem. I read that attached article Penworks posted. Sounds like same old same old. That was NOT the twi I was in. Looking at everybody in any group like they're cult robots until proven innocent is, at best, thinking evil, and at worst, bigotry.

Back to that multiple centers of reference thing. There doesn't have to be a scripture for it. God gave everyone free will. We consider multiple points of view because we CAN! If you're in a football game, huddled up, and the play is given (offense OR defense), that is NOT the time to consider other points of view. But there's plenty of time after the game, or between plays to analyze and comment, not just in football. Overall, the AOS confused people, but there were some points of similarity.

Just because VP helped himself to things he shouldn't have doesn't define twi 100%.

quote: I'm glad you started this thread, johniam! At first I was put off by the "rock star" analogy. Rock stars were different things, and had different connotations when I was a callow youth, though two of my favorite songs are Life's Been Good to Me So Far and On The Cover of the Rolling Stone.

When I was an asst mgr for Burger King in the 80s, part of my training included information about the word "coke". Originally, it referred to coca cola, a copyrighted product. By then (the 80s), any soft drink could be called a "coke". This doesn't even consider that cocaine is called coke. But, as a mgr on the clock I was not to call anything a "coke" other than coca cola. I think the phrase "rock star" has evolved in a similar way. There's no copyright issue, but in the 60s and 70s a rock star was Mick Jagger, John Lennon, or Jimmy Page or somebody like that. Now people can be called that in many situations. There's even an energy drink called rock star. Back when Dennis Rodman still played for the Bulls, teammate Steve Kerr compared him to a rock star; said when they'd go somewhere, like the mall, lots of people would follow him around everywhere. I think Jesus may have been the first true rock star. He was not mainstream, he disrespected the powers that were, and people followed him around wherever he went.

I was mildly shook up when twi started imploding. The most sane thing anyone told me was that God's still God. I agree that LCM succumbed to pressure. It's easy to speculate who, if anybody, would have stood upright, but the damage has long been done.

quote:

TWI was and is cult. Wierwille and his successors made/make their followers deployable to a hidden agenda, and that is the definition of a cult. It's not a matter of subjective feelings. It is a matter of objective evidence.

Funny, twi made me and my family 'deployable' to not being welcome at any fellowship. Too "contaminated". Easy come easy go, eh?

Since then, my family has interacted with 4 twi spinoffs and 1 Presbyterian church. The 4th of the spinoffs we have now been with for over 10 years, so several comparisons come to mind. First, the similarities.

1) there is a chain of command. Reverends, researchers, etc.

2) there are classes available which spells out the belief system

3) there are regular fellowships available to attend which are pretty much the same as twig: praying, singing, manifestations, a teaching from the word, and fellowship afterward

4) there are several branch type meetings and weekend get togethers each calendar year

5) there is a strong sense of community, just like churches have

Now the differences

1) nobody is pressured to go to fellowship, go wow, go corps, etc. although those things are available, yet loosely connected.

2) nobody is discouraged from going to college, having a secular career, whatever

3) only 15% of abs leaves the area, the rest is used to help people who have needs (in 2006 weather knocked out power for 8 days; we were given $$$ to pay for motels we had to stay in. It was 100 degrees outside, and I'm sure we weren't the only ones who benefitted from this) Yes, this is at the discretion of leadership. Isn't everything? Isn't that the kind of thing churches should help people with? In twi 85% of abs went to HQ.

4) nobody is told their believing or commitment is screwed up if they don't come to fellowship for awhile because a personal situation comes up

In twi our agenda was to run classes and I'm not so sure it was really hidden. It wasn't for everybody, but nobody stuck a gun to my head. I heard plenty of reproof, some I received, some I did not. No matter what "evidence" you could cite, the conclusion that twi was and is a "cult" is a subjective feeling. My inclination that twi was valuable is also a subjective feeling. There are some things that only God can totally sort out.

I got in the word in MI, left for 8 years beginning with the wow year, then came back in 1985. Never heard of the guy or heard about this situation. Sounds similar to the 'driven to suicide' article.

The remark about the top 5 most dangerous cults was from the anti cult books I skimmed in Christian bookstores. Just like I'm not afraid to come here, I was never afraid to read the books like 'Mindbenders' and 'Youth, brainwashing and the extremist cults'. At least a few anti cult books had a top 5 or top 10 listing of cults. The moonies and the hare krishnas always took the top 2 spots. The next three were us, the children of God, or Garner Ted Armstrong, in no consistent order.

I believe the devil is real. He was more concerned about the Lord Jesus Christ than he was about anything else...and all in vain. He lost. But he's still the god of this world, and no matter how many people see him under every rock erroneously, he still has a kingdom including fallen angels, people he can control, and people he has deceived, just like we were taught in twi.

YES, I think he was VERY concerned about twi. You say VP wasn't scholarly and a crappy writer? The Pharisees thought that way about Jesus. They thought he was a joke. Each of us has our own individual take on the differences between spiritual knowledge and natural knowledge. No amount of fact will blur that. IMO VP had an effective, consistent writing style. Didn't anybody ever coach him? He seemed to have good command of the English language. He was very thorough in making the points he made. A thirty four hour class on the bible and he got how many people to sit through it??? Must've done something right.

"When twi stayed the course, God opened big doors for them."

Any examples?

How about the fact that this "cornfield cult" you keep denigrating had over 100,000 people take pfal foundational, and got to be in the top 5 most dangerous religious cults. Satan was very concerned about us. We even got Bob Dole talking about us. AND!!!!! We had people from all over the world coming to the ROA. How's come we even got THAT far if God wasn't involved. You speak with forked tongue. AND!!!! People actually got delivered from many things. TWI would have fizzled out before the end of the 60s if God was not healing and blessing people big time. No genocide here, let's deal with reality!

Come to think of it, Charles Manson wanted to be a rock star. Didn't he audition to be one of the Monkees? Imagine the beginning of a Monkees episode. Here we come walking down the street etc. Hey Hey we're the Monkees...all the while their faces are on screen with their first names...Mickey...David...Peter...Charles (with that twisted look that was all his own). That woulda been cool.

quote:

Charles Manson's group had a handful of members. In the scale of humanity,

both the numbers of members and their murder victims are "insignificant"

(STATISTICALLY, considering that there's over 200 million people living in the

US this instant.)

That same group was a cult, dangerous, and it DID ruin lives.

If you had a family member who was in it, or who was murdered by them,

you would consider them a big deal and worth discussing.

Yeah, but Charles Manson's group is irrelevant because God had nothing to do with it. God had everything to do with twi even getting as famous as they did. When twi stayed the course, God opened big doors for them. Numbers are incidental when God is involved.

"Some people here say that VP/twi was insignificant, Not enough numbers to have discernible impact. Others say it was a cult. Dangerous. Ruined lives. Those are opposite messages."

They're not opposite messages, they're different messages.

VPW and The Way were insignificant and had no discernible impact on the greater scope of Christianity. The Way was and still is a dangerous cult that ruined lives.

There is no conflict between those two statements.

So then Christianity is irrelevant????

quote: 2) Are you suggesting that we should excuse twi's dark side because "everybody has one?"

No.

quote:

If VPW had been open to healthy criticism there would not have been a TWI.

Remember, he began TWI because, as I understand it, he could not get along well with others (understatement) in his denomination. I think that's because he was what sociologists call a charismatic authoritarian. They aren't usually open to much discussion. :-)

Some people here say that VP/twi was insignificant, Not enough numbers to have discernible impact. Others say it was a cult. Dangerous. Ruined lives. Those are opposite messages. TWI's dark side didn't stop God from blessing people in it. Even the catholic church does much good. They have a dark side. To the present day. TWIs dark side didn't stop the devil from hurting people in it. I don't think of myself as one of the "lucky ones". I got to know God in twi. He's still there. Still answers prayer. Still heals. Putting twi in the box called 'cult' is no different than putting them in the box called 'God's ministry'. IMO

quote: Remember when you were a kid and your mother would say, "If everyone jumped off the bridge, would that make it okay for you to jump, too?"

:biglaugh:/>

YES! My mom did say that to me at least once. Jumping off a bridge is extreme, but when I was in 10th grade on an unseasonably warm day in late winter, most classrooms had those old heaters that came on automatically, so that day most classrooms had their windows open, and for no apparent reason, probably 2 dozen of us took off one shoe and threw it out of a 3rd floor window (choir class). If everybody threw a shoe out the window would that make it OK for you to do it, too? YES! This happened on a Thursday and we got our shoes back the following Monday with a lecture.

They say that there's a perfect chord

That David played and it pleased The Lord.

But, you don't really care for music,

Do you?

Yes, I do. You have no idea.

We're not rock stars, John, or any other kind of stars, for that matter. We're just ordinary people, exposing the dark side of The Way.

OK, so you don't relate to rock stars. Today I thought of an example of what I said. In 1988 I lived in MI. The area coordinator was a 9th corps grad twi reverend. He once shared during a twig fellowship that he disagreed with LCM about something. He thought God would bless someone who ABS'd 2% of their income if that's what they were comfortable with. I don't have a problem with that. LCM was always saying stuff like...."God called it robbery if people didn't tithe in the OT. It must be GRAND LARCENY today under grace!!!!! God won't spit in your direction." I never heard whatever LCM said during the late 90s but I know he wanted 15%, not just the tithe.

But this guy couldn't have ever admitted to LCM that he disagreed about that or ANYTHING. Ralph D. said there was nobody who could tell the president of twi that he/she was wrong. Oh, yeah, we're just supposed to trust that LCM was always on fire for God. Even VP did not come across like that. There were just as many dissenters under VP as LCM, but it was under LCMs watch that the wheels came off.

"Dark side of TWI????? Show me something that doesn't have a dark side.

My definition of rock star is two fold:

1) someone who actually plays in a popular rock band

2) any one who...

a) connects with their culture enough to have discernible impact

b) because of a) is allowed to disrespect things like government, religion, education, public mores, etc.

One of my window cleaning accounts is an Irish pub/restaurant in downtown St. Louis called the Dubliner. Inside there are 2 posters on the wall. One is of prominent Irish politicians, the other is writers. I never heard of ANY of the politicians. I heard of about half the writers; people like George Bernard Shaw, Oscar Wilde, William Butler Yeats, and James Joyce. Then it dawned on me that those writers were the 'rock stars' of their generations. They didn't play in bands, but they connected with their communities, and they were allowed to disrespect things in their culture. Politicians have their time in the spotlight, then they're mostly forgotten. How does this relate to twi?

The men and women of God in twi were like the politicians. They spoke to us publicly; they were the face of the organization. Were there writers? Sure, but something was missing. By writers, I mean not just Elena Whiteside or Dennis McGee. We had musicians, comedians, painters, etc. But none of those were allowed even a hint of criticism. DID we criticize? Sure, but it had to be in secret. One of the last ROAs I attended I remember LCM talking about someone there who had "spoken against VP and against LCM and against twi". LCM called this person a dog who had to be muzzled.

I can see that religion might have to handle criticism differently than mainstream culture. Religion has to juggle their God, who is holy and perfect and cannot be disrespected,with their people who are imperfect and capable of doing any unspeakable thing anyone else could possibly do. I can't picture the catholic church or any other religion allowing anybody to promote music or literature displaying their "bloopers".

But criticism is healthy. Even in scripture we're supposed to check and balance ourselves (Gal. 6:1, Rom. 12:2, etc.). Countries and religions which are extreme in suppressing criticism tend to stick out like the sore thumb that they are. IMO what has happened to twi wouldn't have if certain things had been addressed freely. But they couldn't because...wasn't John Schoenheit's life threatened if he told anyone what he knew about certain things? Sounds like suppression to me. I guess the only true 'rock stars' of twi culture are here.

Allan: I think you're saying that perfectionism doesn't have to be a way of life, it can be a menu option, useful in some situation, not in others. I agree with that. There are times when you need to be a 'helicopter parent', like when the kids are infants and toddlers, but if you try to keep that up when they're teens?

When I went on that Alaskan cruise last year they sang happy birthday to me in Russian during dinner. I was not offended.

quote:

Perfectionism - think of it like mental ketchup.

Ketchup is the only tomato product I don't like. So, this is perfect.

Episode #3

Proto: Propo, why are you sad?

Propo: What is sad?

Proto: That's when you're not happy.

Propo: But, I'm always happy. Because I have YOU!

Proto: Good answer.

Propo: Aaugh.

Smash (glisten).

Proto: I can't find your hand; you've got to stop falling on mountains; just stick to sidewalks, OK? Oh, here it is.

dwwwwAAANG!

Healing action has taken place.

Next episode