Raf

That would imply the others did not know. But they did.

Something's been creeping into the discussion, and should be stopped: To oppose Mike or his message is to oppose it, not to fear it or him.

David, you're missing my point: the power of eyewitness testimony is its power to deceive. Thank you for the rest of your post. I'm not here to pass judgment on the manner of other people's posts, including yours, so forgive me for getting into that above.

Todd, I don't agree with all you've written, but I appreciate the time you took to write it. It's late, so I'm only going to answer one point: If you honestly don't see the difference between telling someone he's wrong and telling him he's lying, then I think you're... wrong. :)--> But thanks for the admonishment. I'll keep it in mind.

Dudley Moore Best Defense Eddie Murphy

So that I'm not accused of singling out one thing in Todd's post for criticism... Preach it, brother. The only one who sets rules here is Paw. If I violate 'em, there's a notify button at the top of this post. Please feel free to alert him. Nice start, accusing us of getting "frothy," while Dave is, what, the very model of a modern major general? Of course he's not trying to start a cult. Who said he was? However, he has equated the mindset of rejecting his claims about oxygen saturated water with the mindset of rejecting Christ. They SAY they've benefitted from the water, yes. They THINK it's great, yes. But science doesn't bear out that oxygen saturated water has any benefit being claimed. So we're asking, where's the proof? Testimony is great, and more power to them, but in order for something to be beneficial, the results have to be able to be duplicated in a controlled setting. Those who have tried to duplicate the results in a controlled setting have found that the claims are untrue. The only people insisting that the claims are true are (1) those who are selling it, and (2) those who really want to believe it. I presume Dave falls into the latter category. IF there are liars involved here, they are in the former group, not the latter. Because to call her a liar "too," we would have to have called Dave a liar, and we haven't. Ditto. That's what you say. And you're entitled. I say $12 a gallon for a placebo is pretty steep. They are. They're not. But that's where we disagree. We don't think a placebo helps people: it fleeces them. I don't want to see people get fleeced. I'm confused: are you describing those who are interested in verifying the claims being made about oxygen saturated water, or those who pounce on truly significant and relevant matters like screen names? True. Neither are the sellers of Penta Water. Neither is "You have the same mindset that rejected Christ." What's so baffling? He's making claims about the benefits of a product: we're asking him to prove it. He's offering his proof and we're challenging it. You're right. I don't see any need to criticize this thread on others, or to badmouth Dave (on this thread or others). But when you use a word like demonization, please note who bashed people over the heads with Bible verses on this thread, and who's saying, "please prove your claims." That an offer? We're mentally ill now? Name one thing we have "misrepresented." Umm, discussion board. That means we discuss. If he didn't want it discussed, he shouldn't have put it on a discussion board. YOU would think. I never associated the two. As implied earlier, you seem to be awfully selective in this accusation. People have been ridiculed for using screen names, accused of not paying attention in the ninth grade, knowing nothing about biology... And you're here criticizing those same people for showing that their screen names are irrelevant, that they did pay attention in the ninth grade, and that they know a thing or two about biology. So really, if you're going to criticize people on this point, at least be fair and criticize both sides of this debate. What exactly do you want people to change here? Do you want us all to be just a bit more gullible? I don't think anyone here is being stupid, so your "compliment" is misplaced. Well, let me know when you've made your decision. I eagerly await it. :)-->

No one has accused David of lying, that's why. Lying would imply ill intent. As I said, I did not read every thread on this post, but those I did read all seemed to say "David, you're really, really, really mistaken." David has responded, "oh yeah, well I use my real name. Why are you hiding?" I don't see you criticizing him for that. But for challenging the basis of the claims he's making, we get (falsely) accused of calling him a liar? I just wanted to see how this worked. As I said, please correct me if I'm mistaken. I'm not above saying so when I'm wrong.

Todd, Where did anyone all David a liar? I haven't read every post, but I don't see where anyone accused him of lying. Please correct me if I am mistaken.

You've dealt with much worse than Def??? Sigh.

Ah. That explains it. We usually get around it by calling it the turn-of-the-century or the early 21st century.

Quite. :)--> Maggie Smith Harry Potter and the Sorceror's Stone Richard Harris

I ended up posting the 5000th on the THE thread.

Actually, I planned it this way. Strange just caught me in the act. :)-->

My 5,000th post on GSCAFE!

4,999....

4,998

4,997

Okay, here goes.... 4,996

Mike: "PFAL is God-breathed." VPW: "No it's not." Mike: "God oversaw the editing process." Editors: "No, He didn't." Mike: "PFAL says it's God-breathed." PFAL: "No, I don't." What's it gonna take?

Steve! I'm going to take a chance here and guess that with Teen Wolf, you've managed to stump us. I think we need some kind of sequel rule (linking from Back to the Future II to Back to the Future I is hardly difficult). So let's say this (and if you disagree, let me know): you can only link to a sequel or prequel if the actor you're linking to is unique to that sequel. Examples: Linking from Back to the Future II to back to the future I is okay if you're moving to the "original" Jennifer or Crispin Glover, who is not in part II or III (not counting recycled footage), but it's not okay for any of the principals in the cast (because Marty, Doc, Lorraine, Biff and Strickland are in all three movies). Linking from the Godfather to Godfather II is okay to get to Robert DeNiro, but not to get from Al Pacino to Diane Keaton. Likewise, you can go to Part III to get to Andy Garcia, but not Talia Shire. Is that okay? And since Teen Wolf (more than likely) has us stumped, Steve!, can you restart from Christopher Lloyd? if anyone objects to this rule suggestion, say the word and I'll delete it.

David, A couple of things here. First: the fact that you're willing to put your name behind your testimony, as opposed to a handle like "bluzeman" or "zixar" is unimpressive and proves nothing. Second: Lawyers like eyewitness testimony in some regards because it is unreliable and can veer a jury away from the provable facts of a case. I covered a trial involving two vehicles, one of which was going in the wrong direction on the highway. Accident reconstruction experts established beyond any shadow of a doubt which car was going the wrong way, but the eyewitness testimony was conflicting (some agreed with the experts; some did not). The jury acquitted the guy who was going the wrong way because the eyewitnesses did not agree (never mind that it was scientifically impossible for the defendant to be innocent: God bless the eyewitnesses)! All of which is designed to say this: Penta Water is bunk. It doesn't work because it can't work. The science you've quoted to us is flawed, and dispassionate people who've looked at this all come out saying the same thing: it's bunk. The only people saying otherwise are the people selling it and the people who desperately want to believe it. Your appeals to scripture are irrelevant. I can get 5,000 people to swear on a stack of Bibles that they saw David Copperfield turn a monkey into a swatch. All it means is they all saw the same illusion: it doesn't make the illusion real. My name is Rafael Olmeda. And Penta Water is bunk.

JFK Kevin Bacon tee hee hee Hollow Man

Mike: "PFAL is God-breathed." Wierwille: "No, it's not." Who you gonna believe?

AWESOME!