Raf

Perhaps my "distance" has skewed my judgment. Or at least made me less willing to exercise that judgment. It is a lot more comfy where I sit. I send a check, I get tapes, a discount on books, and no hassles whatsoever. They've made no attempt to influence anything I've done on my web site (except when I asked for their assistance). Yeah, maybe I'm too comfy. Maybe I've got a twice-bitten, thrice shy attitude about the whole thing. I get involved, but I keep it at arm's length. They don't control me, and they haven't tried to. When I'm uncomfortable, I say so, publicly (which is wrong: I should say it to them first). But I haven't even gotten reproof on that. They've been totally "live and let live" with me. Too comfy: I think you may have me on that one. And MJ: I know you're trying to sound a just warning. If I'm unkind in my challenge, forgive me, but the challenge is fair: warn people about what's really there, not about what you project is there based on your mistrust of them. My deep concern with CES, which I've termed my "crisis of commitment" is based on a number of very real factors: They excuse false prophecy, and would rather declare Jesus wrong than themselves. Both are a little more complicated than that, but if those two truths don't get people to think very, very carefully about their CES involvement, mentioning JAL's divorce will not.

Well, I apologize for misunderstanding you, MJ.

This is another possibility: not sure if it's related, but it is serious...

MJ, that's judgmental. Do you honestly believe JAL needs to rally people to his cause to get them over here to defend his integrity? That CES followers feel AFRAID to use the Internet? Or message boards. Because if you really feel that way, that's paranoia. It's not based on anything resembling reality. But I'll tell you what: I'll rescind my paranoia comment and apologize for it. I'm sorry I said "paranoia." Instead, I'll say this: If you really, really feel that way... Prove it.

P.S. I'm not trying to shut you up. I'm tired of that false accusation too.

Who made this about you? I said your "history" was revisionist. I stand by that. You accused me of spin. That's fine, you're entitled to do so. Then you accused me of sugarcoating in order to keep people calm. BULL. Then you accuse me of buying their line "hook line and sinker." BULL. Everyone knows I have problems with CES and I've made no bones about that, but you accuse me of buying their line "hook line and sinker." You're either misinformed or lying. I've repeated this enough times to no longer believe you're misinformed, but I don't think you're deliberately lying. Forgetful, maybe. So let me remind you: I do not buy the CES line "hook line and sinker." And I'm tired of your false accusations to the contrary. I've said good and bad about CES, but you only seem to fly off the handle when I say something good. Lighten up.

I apologize, MJ. You can have your judgment seat back.

what is this Raf? The rock solid truth, MJ.

With all due respect to both, I don't even think it's an indirect attempt. It's direct.

Apparently from you. You're the only one in this discussion employing that tactic.

I've heard that "prophetess" stuff too. Icky. I agree. Also not nuts about their spin that a prophet can make a prediction that turns out to not be true, and that's okay. It's not okay.

As I said on the other thread: there are good reasons to be concerned with CES, doctrinal reasons. Your "spin" is based on nothing more than paranoia.

MJ, There are good reasons to oppose CES, but you make it sound like they've banned people from the Internet and are now coordinating a response to this thread. HORSEHOCKEY. You've misrpresented the past, you're misrepresenting the present... can the future be far off?

I thought he was registered already. I know he posted once or twice, but maybe that was at Waydale.

This is revisionist nonsense. John stepped down because he and the others thought it was best. He took a year off from ministry, and all said from the beginning that it would be a year off. They didn't wait for things to "calm down." Any Greasespot reader knows that it can take decades for something to "calm down." And if I recall correctly, there was plenty of debate both then and now as to whether JAL even did anything so egregious that it merited him taking the year off.

Point taken. Perhaps you forget that I never objected to that thread. But that doesn't invalidate your point.

If you're not the kind of person that has a laugh at Internet fights, the rest of the post, and the thread, is not addressed to you. The post also alerts people who might be interested that Satori has resurfaced. I find that interesting. Zixar then addresses someone who's already at the other site (and here), not trying to get anyone else involved in it. So, two reasons: 1. There's a good fight going on if anyone's interested. 2. Satori has resurfaced. Good enough reason to start a thread? Is there a committee to determine these things, now? How did I miss that announcement?

Steve, The PFAL Review is not really a PFAL Review, and should not be treated as such. A true PFAL review (in my opinion) would have plenty of good things to say. The PFAL review I posted had a very specific objective. If that's not kept in mind, I'd just look like a nitpicker with nothing good to say. BTW: Thanks for the compliments. My ego is going to go take a nap now, as it always does after a good meal. :)-->

Oral Roberts also had a magazine called "Abundant Life," around the same time. It was a common theme at the time. I defy you to come up with a class name or a church name that no one else has used in one form or another: as a church name, book name, chapter title, article headline, etc. And that includes the Living Epistles Society. Maybe Stanley Jones did inspire the titles of The Way and PFAL. Huge "so what" in my opinion. I'm a little more concerned with the presentation of the words of others as his own, but even then I have to concede that in this context, plagiarism does not in any way affect the quality of the message. The integrity of the messenger, maybe, but not the quality of the message. "The Word of God is The Will of God." B.G. Leonard

Ah, yes, it's welcoming time... Sorry I took so long. Cream and sugar?

Feel free to quote at will, post links, whatever you'd like. If you'd prefer to post it on your site directly, let me know and I'll send you the articles by MSWord (easier to copy).

No need to apologize from where I sit, Tom:

While we're on the subject: although I did not word it well, there is no ban on cross-posting at LES either. I find it distasteful, but that's only speaking for myself.

I'm still trying to figure out why THE just won't die.

I first encountered Steve when someone posted a link to his website here on gscafe. I e-mailed him with some tips, which he took to heart. Through his site, he helped me see where I was being too hard on the past. But he has always been incredibly honest in his approach, appreciating whatever good we got out of our TWI experience while being willing to see that it wasn't all wine and roses, or milk and honey. I admire him greatly. I just had no idea he was "Eagle."