Raf

You can't talk me into it. I've heard all the arguments before. Yup, I've heard them all.

Still I look to find a reason to believe...

That and the restraining order she put on me when I was stalking her back in 1992. Wench.

I tell ya, ya need a Street Corner on this site. That thread just don't seem to fit right in Doctrinal. Just my two bits.

By the way (shameless plug alert) if anyone is interested in a forum where their faith in Christ won't be challenged, there's always that other message board. Click on the logo and you'll go right to it. (Click on the name and you'll go to my NAHJ campaign site).

I'm having a bit of a hard time with this. I too am an ex-JW, but unlike Refiner, I'm also ex-TWI. How would I feel if someone who's not ex-TWI showed up and started posting on how we all need to accept the Trinity? Don't know. It hasn't happened (I'm assuming DA Reed is ex-TWI, but I don't know that for sure). Do people who are not ex-TWI have to respect some kind of boundaries before posting? Is it trolling if they try to start an interesting/controversial discussion? I should hope not. But at the same time I understand how folks like Dot and Goey are feeling. When George Aar or Sudo post their anti-Bible sentiments, I tend to stay out of their way. I also have no comment on Refiner's rejection of Christ (or anyone else's). I wish I could convince you otherwise, but there's nothing I can say that you have not already heard, is there? I say this topic is interesting to people who are ex-TWI. I'm not happy about it, but I'm just one voice among over 100, and my views have been welcome here. If Refiner's acting like a troll, his posts will ultimately bear that out. Trolls don't tend to stick around or continue posting. They're more hit-and-run as far as I can tell. Refiner seems to be interested in conversation, and wants to see how ex-TWI folks respond to his viewpoints. Maybe my viewpoint is biased. I'm more interested in his comparisons between TWI and JWs. If that means I have to put up with his Christ-rejection, well, I don't see a way around it. Does anyone else?

Welcome to the cafe. You've lurked, so you know how it can be. So to start things off, would you like some tea? Oh, all right. Coffee it is. :)-->

You know, that sounds like... Oh never mind. He's being literal folks. Sorry to hear that Steve!. I found out when I woke up. A bummer of a way to end the trip.

Really? Cool. You know the lady who sued McDonald's because her coffee was too hot? She was in the right.

Umm, I gould be wrong, but isn't it impossible to have a negative growth rate of greater than 100%?

I read the Notebook back in 1997. It's a manipulative novel, designed for one purpose and one purpose only: to make you cry. Worked for me. But I never read it again and I promptly forgot the story (except for some basic elements). TOTAL chick flick, I'm sure. I'll wait for DVD, if I see it at all.

Really? The same can be said for The Odyssey.

The Natural Man thingamajig was not his idea. I don't recall if its Kenyon, Bullinger, Stiles or all three. But it was definitely not original. As for the chapter and verse breaks: any first year theology student would know this. I credit Wierwille with doing his part to publicize it. It comes in handy every now and then. Dispensationalism (erase the Jehovah's Witness meaning from your mind for this) is the same thing as what Wierwille calls "administrations." It is not a new thing, but everyone who teaches dispensationalism comes up with a different list of dispensations (administrations). I don't recall seeing Wierwille's list elsewhere, but it's not very different from Bullinger's.

There was the story about a guy who went to a Promise Keepers rally where he heard two days of preachers extolling the importance of men standing up and reclaiming their positions as heads of their households. So the guy goes home and sees his wife and says, "Honey, I am the Man in this home! I am the head of this household! When push comes to shove, I am the one who makes the final decision. What I say, goes. You are my wife and you will submit to me. That is the command of God." After that, he didn't see his wife for a week. And when the week was up, he could see her a little bit out of one eye...

Welcome to the cafe, wondering. Coffee? Martindale wrote "Rise and Expansion of the Christian Church" ages ago. Is that the book you're talking about? Or is this new?

Did I miss a newbie? Welcome, Blue Sunday! Have some coffee?

They get a future in an earthly paradise (as opposed to heaven). This is not much different than what TWI taught: Christian believers get "heaven," OT Believers get "paradise."

I found it interesting that they counted music that was written for other purposes and later incorporated into a movie. That's how "Unchained Melody" by the Righteous Brothers got in, even though it was written years before Ghost came out. The Oscars only count songs written specifically for a particular movie (which is why Whitney Houston's I Will Always Love You, a remake, was not qualified to be nominated). But if you use that same standard for the AFI list, "As Time Goes By" from Casablanca would have not made the list, and we all know it deserved to make that list.

I think part of the problem with the literature that tackles this subject, on both sides, is the presumption that the other side consists of idiots and/or people who intentionally ignore or misrepresent scripture. It just kills people that others can honestly come to a different conclusion. So Biblical Unitarians make it seem like Trinitarians claim Jesus Christ is The Father, while Biblical Trinitarians ;)--> make it seem like Unitarians don't appreciate the lordship of Jesus Christ. Read Buzzard if you'd like, but I suspect you'll find the book insulting on a number of levels. I've read it and it makes compelling arguments, but even I got tired of the put-downs after only a few pages.

Did anybody else here what I just heard? That's right folks, ANOTHER Cafe newbie!! You know what that means!

Actually, rumor has it that it's a picture of Jon Lovitz. The real pic is here... Complete with name and work address, in case the WayGB wants to send me any letters.

So let it be edited... so let it be done.

That was most unexpected, Def. I'm humbled. I don't know what to say. You're an honorable person, like so many here. I'm proud to be among you.

Yours was a party? :)--> It's a disservice to the word "party" to even use it to describe that exercise in nothingness. "Celebration." Yawwwwn. Actually, anniversaries are optional, if I recall correctly.

I apologize for the misunderstanding, Def. Amd allow me to predict my own behavior in saying that this would quickly devolve into a shouting match. Seeing as I'd rather not, and I wouldn't change your mind if I would, I'd rather just read. :)-->