Raf

I think part of the problem with the literature that tackles this subject, on both sides, is the presumption that the other side consists of idiots and/or people who intentionally ignore or misrepresent scripture. It just kills people that others can honestly come to a different conclusion. So Biblical Unitarians make it seem like Trinitarians claim Jesus Christ is The Father, while Biblical Trinitarians ;)--> make it seem like Unitarians don't appreciate the lordship of Jesus Christ. Read Buzzard if you'd like, but I suspect you'll find the book insulting on a number of levels. I've read it and it makes compelling arguments, but even I got tired of the put-downs after only a few pages.

Did anybody else here what I just heard? That's right folks, ANOTHER Cafe newbie!! You know what that means!

Actually, rumor has it that it's a picture of Jon Lovitz. The real pic is here... Complete with name and work address, in case the WayGB wants to send me any letters.

So let it be edited... so let it be done.

That was most unexpected, Def. I'm humbled. I don't know what to say. You're an honorable person, like so many here. I'm proud to be among you.

Yours was a party? :)--> It's a disservice to the word "party" to even use it to describe that exercise in nothingness. "Celebration." Yawwwwn. Actually, anniversaries are optional, if I recall correctly.

I apologize for the misunderstanding, Def. Amd allow me to predict my own behavior in saying that this would quickly devolve into a shouting match. Seeing as I'd rather not, and I wouldn't change your mind if I would, I'd rather just read. :)-->

What despicable liars.

Refiner, I don't think you meant anything by it, but we have a standing rule here against using people's real names unless they've already revealed them (I fall into the latter category). It's to protect people's privacy. Raf

I disagree: it's got some genuinely scary moments, but the suspense is poorly sustained. The ending is muddled, and Rob Lowe's voiceovers are generally distracting. I keep watching the end trying to figure out what happened. For the life of me I don't get it.

Bringing this up for Schuks.

Schuks, There's a "Best Way Songs" thread too. FYI

Tom, It really is a twisted communion service.

This is not a fair summary, given that "I disagree completely with Mike" is not one of the options. The option that comes closest to that statement is "I disagree with Mike and think PFAL is utter garbage." I don't know how much more one can disagree with him. And 19 people picked that option. No one is on record completely agreeing with him, which means two things: 1. Mike hasn't voted and 2. EITHER Mike hasn't encouraged enough of his compatriots to come in, sign on and vote OR Mike HAS encouraged his friends to do so and they simply haven't (because that's not how they feel or they don't want to be bothered).

Nooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!! Sorry: Not looking forward to election coverage. :)-->

True, WordWolf, but I was not aware that anyone other than the Geerites who left by 1989 knew about those books. I stuck with the two that were actually sold in the TWI bookstore. Were the other books sold in the TWI bookstore?

Why? I'm not going to change your mind. You're not going to change mine. You can ask me to look at that site, I can ask you to look at Buzzard's book. Where does it get us? I assume you've looked at the evidence and have drawn a conclusion. Give me a little credit here: I've looked at the evidence too. I draw a different conclusion, and I'm not particularly interested in arguing to point to death with someone who has already made up his mind. I discuss this on a regular basis with folks who've never been exposed to a Biblical Unitarian position. That's different: it's not arguing. It's exchange. Def, you and I would just be arguing. I'd rather not.

Picky picky.

When I was in, it was my understanding that JW publications were dirt cheap (I'm talking cost, not content). But even at these real bargain prices, they were a lot cheaper to produce. The profit margin was astronomical. I forgot where I read that: I THINK it was in the book "Witnesses of Jehovah," which I have long since lost. Oh, and my memory concurs with Refiner's: The money isn't made by selling the products to the public, but selling them to the followers who MAY accept payment for them when they give them to others, but often do not.

That's all right. You'll sound fine so long as the rest of us are drunk.

You're a good sport, Def. We should have a beer sometime. You can try to talk me into the Trinity, and I can try to talk you into karaoke.

Def, this page will sum up the discussion, point for point. :D-->

As for my "vicious tone," I treat you with the respect you have earned. Wanna know something really weird? In recognizing PFAL for what it is, as opposed to worshipping it for what it is not, I honor and respect PFAL more than you ever will.

Here you go. Cream and sugar are on the counter.

And... how would you like your coffee? I have a question, having visited the ex-JW board and seen some of the (yikes!) discussions that go on there: do you still consider yourself Christian? You don't have to answer, but you DO have to try the coffee here. I'll have it for you in a second...