Raf

I didn't write it. Haven't even read it yet. I just figured this was the best place for it. It's a pdf file. And it's 97 pages long!! Here's an html version.

Doing some checking. Craley was apparently a "longtime" editor of The Way Magazine (which I think puts him a bit higher on the "official" scale than "established TWI believer").

We should contact David Craley and find out how leadership reacted to his article. It strikes me that the firsthand testimony of people who were ordered to get abortions takes precedence over the musings of an "established TWI believer" who may have been guilty of (gasp) independent thinking. Any way of getting a hold of him?

All I needed to know.

I often find myself missing TWI. But then, I'm not an experienced bomber pilot.

That's interesting advice, Refiner. I recall investigating the "cult" charges before I got involved, and I agree, most were doctrinal in nature. The few that were not doctrinal, I either didn't believe or, frankly, didn't care about. "Wierwille was a plagiarist." I never denied that, but I never cared either because plagiarism does not affect the content of the finished product. If it called Wierwille's integrity into question, that didn't matter to me because my involvement was not centered around or dependent on the integrity of VPW. "Wierwille said God talked to him and promised that God would teach him blah blah blah..." My response: Well, at least God didn't try to extort $8 million from Wierwille's followers by threatening his life. The guns thing was no longer happening, and the hunting course explanation seemed credible. I thought the Myth of the Sixth Million and other Anti-Semitic accusations were outright lies. It wasn't until these Web Sites came online that I realized this was true. I was not concerned about the allegations of "adultery" committed by a dead man, and by the time I heard rumors of sexual misconduct involving Martindale, I was just about out the door.

At some point the cafe will officially have more members than TWI. OhYour! Welcome. This is embarrassing but, I think I'm out of coffee. We have some Sanka in the back, if you'd settle for that. Oh! Wait, you're in luck! Someone made an emergency run.

Prove it.

Actually, Tom, I thought the same thing, but then I looked at Oldiesman's list again and I realized these were the smartest things LCM ever said. You should see the list of the dumbest things.

Uhh, yeah, uhh, ok. :)-->

Don't mean to pick a fight here, as I respect everyone's right to believe what they will. However, I think it's wrong to take these atheists and say "well, their religion was the state." They were atheists, and they performed as many atrocities as the best religious zealots. Redefining their atheism to have them qualify as "religious" is completely disingenuous. Basically, the moment someone commits an atrocity, you're going to redefine "religion" to include their motivation. That's called equivocation. Having said that, I acknowledge that the original question was about agnostics, not atheists. There's a distinct difference. Interesting chat.

Honest question: where does TWI teach this? I don't recall them ever distinguishing by trimester. I recall them saying that before the baby takes its first breath, it is not a living being. But I don't recall the distinction for which you are praising them. Could you clarify or point out where this was taught?

In the late 1970s there was this group who followed a cult leader named Jim Jones. Notorious. He had a bunch of them commit suicide by drinking kool-aid laced with cyanide. Those who did so willingly were last. First they had to take care of the unwilling. Since then, kool-aid drinkers has evolved into a condescending term for someone who does not question another's authority, no matter how absurd, illogical, hateful or hurtful an instruction the authority figure is demanding. TRIVIA NOTE: It wasn't Kool-Aid at Jonestown. It may have been "Flavor-Aid," a competitive knock-off. Don't drink the Kool-Aid.

In the late 1970s there was this group who followed a cult leader named Jim Jones. Notorious. He had a bunch of them commit suicide by drinking kool-aid laced with cyanide. Those who did so willingly were last. First they had to take care of the unwilling. Since then, kool-aid drinkers has evolved into a condescending term for someone who does not question another's authority, no matter how absurd, illogical, hateful or hurtful an instruction the authority figure is demanding. TRIVIA NOTE: It wasn't Kool-Aid at Jonestown. It may have been "Flavor-Aid," a competitive knock-off. Don't drink the Kool-Aid.

Refiner, You will, no doubt, see some parallels with the JW cult. WOW = Pioneer The Blue Book = The Truth that Leads to Eternal Life Mark and Avoid = disfellowshipped Household = The Truth Goey, you asked, what are dubs? Jdubs. As in J-W's. Dub. Dubya. J Dubya. Dubs. They are Jehovah's Witness Wayfers (more fattening, no doubt, since they are allowed to have incomes and, therefore, meals).

Refiner, You will, no doubt, see some parallels with the JW cult. WOW = Pioneer The Blue Book = The Truth that Leads to Eternal Life Mark and Avoid = disfellowshipped Household = The Truth Goey, you asked, what are dubs? Jdubs. As in J-W's. Dub. Dubya. J Dubya. Dubs. They are Jehovah's Witness Wayfers (more fattening, no doubt, since they are allowed to have incomes and, therefore, meals).

I didn't stay. Why would I have stayed? I can put myself into someone else's shoes and come up with good reasons. The people who left when I did gave vague reasons for doing so. I don't like "vague." I like specifics. I also don't think it's all that unreasonable to ask someone who is drawing a salary from TWI to actually believe that TWI and its leadership have something unique to offer. Why did I stay in the offshoot? Comfort. Everyone I knew was there. I am utterly unaware of any hint of a rumor of sexual abuse or misconduct in the offshoot. I ultimately left for purely personal reasons. When my marriage failed I needed a "time out," so to speak, from all this fellowship stuff. I needed time with Him, and in this case I got the distinct sense that I needed to do this alone. I had allowed other people to influence my thoughts for too long, and to be honest, I was so angry with Him that I was afraid I was going to take it out on those around me. So I dropped off the radar screen for a bit. When I emerged, the doctrine of the offshoot (CBC) was undergoing major changes, and I didn't feel comfortable with those changes. So I started going to a CES fellowship and, while I didn't believe every single thing they uttered, I was pleased that I could express my thoughts and not be shunned. I may not win "CESer of the Year" or anything, but I don't want to, either.

Good. I meant you the whole time. :D-->

LG: I was referring to myself. Sorry if you read that the wrong way, but it was not directed at you. Just an FYI.

Dateline: Whathefudge, ME June 1 The Internet domain name securing agency Register.com reported yesterday that some guy named Pat Something purchased 17 variations of the domain name "prevailinghousehold.com." Among the sites purchased were "theprevailinghousehold.com," "prevailinghousehold.org," "prevailinghousehold.net," "prevailinghousehold.bz," "theprevailinghouseholdformerlyknownasthewayinternational.com," and "rosalierosalieshesourman.wtf." Mr. Something denied that The Prevailing Household, a wacky wannabe cult unknown to anyone but its current and former adherents, had any rights to the name under U.S. Trademark Law or common sense. "The words 'prevailing' and 'household' are common words in the English language," Something said. "They don't have exclusive rights to it. I do not intend to cause any confusion between their business and the information I wish to provide." Mr. Something said he intends to provide information about their business. Mr. Thinksheknowsitall, a sometime critic of both Something and the Prevailing Word Inc., was approached for comment but ordered by both sides to shut up.

Agreed. The teaching here is that when a person becomes a Christian, he is born of God's seed. One cannot become "un-born again." Once you're saved, you cannot lose your salvation, no matter how egregious a sinner you become afterwards. You cannot do anything to remove the seed of your earthly father, so you cannot do anything to remove the seed of your Heavenly Father. A separate matter: I feel a need to expand on what I wrote earlier. Like Jehovah's Witnesses, TWI taught that the holy spirit is not a person, but a power. Jehovah's Witnesses call it "God's active force." TWI called it "power from on high." TWI taught that this holy spirit is the incorruptible seed and a token of our inheritance. The "nine gifts" of the spirit recorded in I Corinthians are not gifts, but nine manifestations of one gift. That is why anyone who has the spirit has the power to "operate" all nine manifestations. All believers have the gift of holy spirit. Someone already pointed out tithing. I can't believe I left that out, but yes, the importance of tithing is a key belief. I also agree with Oldiesman in placing the remission and forgiveness of sins as a key belief. A final point that I do not see mentioned elsewhere: It is a key belief of TWI that water baptism is not necessary. Ephesians teaches there is one baptism, and that is the baptism of the holy spirit. TWI, to the best of my knowledge, does not perform water baptisms.

Purely wishful thinking dante. (Are you even supposed to be here today?) TWIM is not suing to get TWI to change its name or cease its activities. It would take a real activist judge to order them to do such a thing, and even then it would be appealed so quickly the judge's head would spin right off.

Actually, my lycanthropic friend, you were still in at the time. As was I. It was on an older tape (pre-1989).

I really liked that song. It ends with Rose singing the chorus acapella (sp?) Another one on that same CD is specifically about Myla. It's called "Heaven's Highest Hill." How do I tell my baby Momma's not coming home How do I tell myself I'll be staying alone Oh, I can't stop crying She'll say Daddy, I want to hold her I want to see her again Want to kiss her, want to touch her Oh, what can I say So do I Oh Momma, I'm missing you real bad But it don't do me no good Sitting, thinking about what we had Love don't stop It goes on forever Love don't stop And it never will Love don't stop One day we'll be together Love don't stop And I'll sing this song to you someday On heaven's highest hill How am I gonna look into those big brown eyes When she wakes up crying out in the middle of the night for Momma How will I make it better The house is full of people But nobody's home Everybody's here and I'm all alone Calling out your name but there's no answer Oh, Momma last night she told me not to cry I swear I see you every time she smiles Love don't stop It goes on forever Love don't stop And it never will Love don't stop One day we'll be together Love don't stop And I'll sing this song to you someday On heaven's highest hill I don't know if you hear me Sometimes I like to think you do All the things we been fighting for I'm gonna make them all come true And these arms they ache to hold you And I know one day I will I'll meet you in the tall grass Up on heaven's highest hill Love don't stop It goes on forever Love don't stop And it never will Love don't stop One day we'll be together Love don't stop And I'll sing this song to you someday On heaven's highest hill Rose, by the way, has her own CD out. For those parents among you who had to endure the Disney flick "Inspector Gadget 2," one of the few redeeming qualities is the bubble gum pop song that plays over the end credits. It's called "Up Up Up", and the singer is Rose Falcon. Yep, the same Rose Falcon. Some might see hints of "Knocked Down But Never Been Knocked Out" in the lyrics. I believe Billy wrote them. Get ready or not Cause here I come Dance dance dance Have some fun 654 321 Get up get up Oh no Never ever gonna stop Try to fly and if I drop Not gonna quit Get up get up get up Stand back I'm gonna make some noise Sing until they hear my voice Can't keep me down Get up get up [Chorus] Get up up up Whoa whoa Up up up Rain falls Down on their parade Lemons into lemonade Can't slow me down No way no way no way Yesterday is in the past Revolt Tomorrow's coming fast All you got is now Get up get up [Chorus] Get up up up Whoa whoa Up up up Whoa whoa Up up up Whoa whoa Up up up Whoa whoa Up up up Hey you Don't let 'em see you frown Come on turn it upside down Don't ever quit Get up get up When life puts you to the test There's nothing better than your best Show 'em what you got You got a lot Show 'em what you got Get up get up Here's a recent interview with Billy Falcon. And their Web sites are Billy Falcon and Rose Falcon

That was it. "Every year they gather together to refuse the Lord's Supper." You see, only the 144,000 are entitled to actually eat the saltine and drink the grape juice. The rest just watch them. Problem: the overwhelming majority of JW's are not members of the 144,000. In fact, they're relatively hard to find. Most congregations do not have a member of the 144,000. So basically everyone got together to not eat and not drink in remembrance of... well, not him.