Raf

I don't know. I've heard a number of explanations. My problem with the CES explanation is that it excuses a false prophecy. It's dressed up real nice, but it excuses a false prophecy nonetheless. Other explanations try to show that it's not a false prophecy. I don't know which of those explanations is true, or if there's another explanation that settles the whole matter. The only thing I know is that I'm not at all satisfied with the CES answer.

I want to clear that up, Def... CES teaches that when Jesus said some standing there would be alive when the kingdom came, he was not aware of the upcoming administration/dispensation of grace. It's "not" (according to them) that he was mistaken: He was merely expressing the Word that he knew. God had not revealed the "secret" (aka mystery) to Jesus, so Jesus was right according to what he knew. They stop short of saying Jesus was wrong or mistaken. My problem with this is that Jesus said he spoke the things his Father told him to say. Even in non-Trinitarian theology, Jesus would have to have been speaking presumptuously in order to make a prediction that later turned out to not come to pass.

Good news, everyone! John Lynn's been spotted! It was tough to see him and he didn't have time to chat, but I can verify that he does, in fact, exist!

Only when I take the time to think, Sky. Unfortunately, that doesn't always happen (and some might say that doesn't often happen). But thank you. :)-->

I've been editing my last post like mad, considering my tremendous blunder about JAL and anonymous posters. I'm going to stop editing though: the last edit was an apology to Cynic, which I repeat here. I'm sorry I missed what you were trying to tell me. I don't think it helped John to post that he wouldn't be posting. It gave ammo to people who say he's not interested in dialogue. I think he is interested in dialogue: just not here. That seems to go for named posters, and especially for unnamed. I think there's still plenty of reason to suggest that JAL won't reply: anonymity is just not one of those reasons. Anyway, sorry, and thanks, and ... I don't know. Wait?

Cynic, Yeah, well I'm talking to you. Public message board. If you don't want other people to reply, don't post it on a public message board. [CORRECTION: OOPS! I MISUNDERSTOOD. I owe Cynic an apology. Forgive me for not reading more closely. And P.S. nice to meet you]. If you're actually interested in an answer to your questions, JAL gave clear instructions on how to contact him. If you're interested in posturing and proving that JAL isn't interested in dialogue, then by all means, start a thread and wait for Godot. My post to you was meant in kindness, Cynic. I didn't mean to criticize you, only to point out that if you posted to actually get an answer, there's plenty of reason to believe it ain't gonna work. Fair enough. I don't remember that, but if you do, that's good enough for me. It deserves an answer. I could be wrong, but calling him a "big weenie" might not be the best way to engender the good will for a serious response to your (very valid) questions.

Sky, I apologize for not answering sooner. I didn't see your post. I'm trying to figure out why it was directed at me, but I'll do my best to answer. Please understand, though, that I had no intention whatsoever of getting involved in any dialogue taking place between you and Galen. I think Galen's a sincere guy. He and I disagree often, but always respectfully. Why does the paranoia run so deep? hmm. Good question. I wonder if paranoia is the right word. I wonder if it isn't just the freedom to speak our minds and the boldness to stand up for what we believe. When folks disagree, that boldness can easily be mistaken for a confrontational attitude (or itching for a fight). Sometimes I find I need to remind myself (or have friends remind me) that in the most heated of flame wars, I'm dealing with a human being. and that we are equally prone to misunderstanding each other. Anyway, I don't know if that answers your question.

Since JAL already indicated that he's not going to be posting regularly and getting into dialogues here (and has taken the heat for it) and he specifically cited a disinterest in speaking to those who don't post their real names, why not just e-mail him or call him? You can even do it as Steve Lortz did, indicating that you posted your question on Greasespot and that you will post his reply. I don't recall L,G, or S ever saying romans 9, 10, or 11 are not God-breathed, and I have listened to their tapes on the Book of Romans. I'd be interested in their answer to your question. I just think you've chosen a questioning method that is not likely to succeed in obtaining an answer.

Better?

As much as I'd prefer John engage folks publicly on this and other threads, I have to take exception to some sentiments expressed here... Luvya Rascal, but sheesh! The man gave his friggin phone number! How many of us have done that? Anyone who wants to take it up with him can do so. You wanna know my phone number? look it up; I ain't postin it on no message board! You guys called him out here, he showed up, and that's more than anyone else has done. Where's VF? Where's CG? Where's LCM? Heck, where are John Linder and Harve Platig? What are their phone numbers? JAL: If you read this little bit of advice: stick around for about a week. Take some time to respond and tangle for a little bit. It might be fun. Then go back to what you were doing before. You won't be the first or the last to have done so. God Bless You. (That's addressed to all of you). Raf

Don't tell that to Raf. He might not take kindly to it. I'm the one who told him.

I hope you don't mine me taking a shot at this... There are several occurrences of a "gathering together" in the Bible, and not all refer to the incident recorded in I Thessalonians 4. We (in English) get the word "rapture" from the Latin for "caught up" (as in "caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air"). There's nothing unbiblical about the word "rapture," and most Christians understand what you're talking about when you use that word. There's nothing unbiblical about the term "gathering together," but most Christians would need you to define which gathering you're talking about. So to avoid an utterly unnecessary bit of confusion, why not just use "rapture"? That's the logic as I see it.

Shaz, Am I misreading you, or did you get that one as wrong as you possibly can?

Well, John has posted for himself on another thread. So I don't know who's "spineless" here. I don't see anyone who fits that description.

WHACK!

That's true wonder. It's like those people who complain about pedophile priests. I mean, most Catholic priests are not pedophiles, and most Catholic bishops have not hidden or excused pedophile priests. So obviously, it's not a problem that needs to be addressed. Thanks for helping me see the light, wonder.

Oops! Sorry I missed that.

The "thread" WordWolf posted is his signature. I don't think it had anything to do with the substance of his message.

This is the only thing he says on the subject on p.2

Four more years! Four more years! Four more years!

Sky, I've gotten into scuffles with the best of 'em on this board. My online behavior hasn't always been, what's the word... Christian. I'm sure there are some people who would be very surprised to hear that I'm "not condescening about it." Becoming a moderator on the first GSCafe offshoot has changed my perspective somewhat. I suddenly find myself as guardian of other people's right to say what's on their mind, on a board with stricter rules than this one. It's not even a little easy. What am I really thinking? I don't know: it varies somewhat between "What would Christ have me to do?" and "Christ! Where did I put that woman's phone number?"

Big Doodyhead! That's a personal insult! That's a personal... Oh never mind. stupid fat Hobbitses

Yes, you must learn to better mask what you really are, LLPOF. Mike'll show you how. ;)-->

Def, You lost me there. Except that no one teaches this. And why not? Because... Right. We agree. But doesn't agreeing on this point negate your conclusion? People are going to open themselves up to devil spirits by denying the Trinity? That's what we all, at our worst, used to say about people who accept the Trinity, remember? In both cases, it's a straw man argument. That's my opinion. Unitarians (context) don't believe we are perfect or that we can be gods. We know that we are flesh and look forward to the future day when God will change our bodies into immortal bodies. We believe that just as much as you do. Perhaps if you expanded what you were trying to say, I might understand you better. I don't understand what you just wrote. It's too easy to refute: uncharacteristic of you.

Originally posted by CKnapp3 SURPRISE CONTRARY TO WHAT SOME OF YOU THINK I HAVE NOT BEEN BANNED Since my name has well been dragged in the mud here in this thread I might as well answer for starters you wise guys who boast of how you think you have freedom of will you might do well to read Romans chapter 9 its in that precious bible who hold so dear you have NO FREE WILL WHATSOEVER you are what you are because God alone made you what you are and likewise I am what I am because God made me what I am why do you blame me for what I am did I make myself NO I DID NOT And in that chapter of Romans it states that God will have mercy on whom he will and he will harden whom he will the person in question has NO SAY in the matter whatsover if you all think of me as one of dishonor then blame God because he made me this way who am I to reply to God why he made me this way and since it was all Gods doing I am totally free of ALL RESPONSIBILTY who are any of you to hold me responsible oh I know what youre saying now Ol Chuckie boy is only deceived Im no more decieved than you are what you are NOT deceived then you are all fully aware of your actions and you will be put to blame because of that Oh I am blameless you might want to say not if you have freedom of will forget about standing blameless before your God you have applied blame to yourself because of your own freedom of will that you are so Goddamn proud of God cannot hold you to blame if you have no freedom of will oh and BTW forget about this Jesus saved my soul crap you have freedom of will and are therefore your OWN lords so Jesus couldnt possibly have saved your soul if you have truly made Jesus your lord then you have surrendered all of your socalled free will what person do you know is subject to a lord and has freedom of will you are a slave to your Jesus or so you say so how can you possibly tell me you have free will many of you will probably say you are possessed of the devil if Im possessed of the devil then I am also possessed of God for the devil is a creation of God and is in no way beyond Gods control besides God made the devil evil dont give me any of this crap that the devil is the former Lucifer who rebelled on his own free will there you go with that freedom of will crap again that is 100% unscriptrual the bible never said that Lucifer became the devil or Satan for that matter besides God bestowed him with power which by nature corrupts anyone who has it but if you are all adamant that you have freedom of will then when you are judged unrighteous dont give God this crap that your sins were washed in Jesus blood you chose to be your own lords by virtue of your proudly proclaimed freedom of will therefore you have to make your own atonements why do you all lie and say that Jesus is your lord even Jesus said he does no will of his own but rather the will of his father and why do you all look forward to receiving crowns on Judgement Day Dont any of you know that if you have a crown then you are burdened with responsibility what YOU WANT RESPONSIBILITY why be so stupid do any you go to gambling houses and throw away your paychecks hoping that by taking a risk you will have something much better why cant you be happy with what you have you are all just like Adam and Eve look what they had in the Garden of Eden but they just werent happy until they ate of the tree that was forbidden billions of trees yet they were hung up on that one bad tree did they receive happiness afterwards and Ill be Goddamned if you all arent still eating of that tree today besides your precious bible says to receive the Kingdom of Heaven as a CHILD a child by nature is very NAIVE he has NO SENSE OF RESPONSIBILTY you people who call me stupid and ignorant you must be soaked in so much Goddamn wisdom that its flowing out of every orifice in your stinking bodies but remember God witholds the good things from the wise and prudent and gives them unto babes are you wise and prudent or are you without wisdom and prudence and I say a babe is too ignorant to recognize the ignorance of another but you people think you are all smarter than me you know youre right you are smarter than me and your own superior intelligence will be the end of you all so Ill leave you all with this question am I a man of righteousness or unrighetousness you people are so full of wisdom suppose you tell me and dont go telling me to take a beam out of my eye either there is no beam in my eye and quite frankly I see clearly enough to see that NOBODY has a mote in their eye but I do see a lot of people with beams in their own eyes telling me to take the one out of my eye And those of you who boast about your freedom of will remember this BOASTING IS FOR FOOLS -------------------------------- You know, Chuck, the funny thing is, the punctuation marks neither add nor subtract from the readability of your intolerant bs screed.