Stayed Too Long

I was in such a deep mental rut when a WOW sat next to me in a cafe, as I sat  eating lunch at the counter. He was very friendly, something I needed at that time in my misery. I don’t recall much of our conversation, but he made such an impression that I wanted to come to his home and learn more about God. I was attending college and winter break was just beginning, so I told him I was going home, but to contact me when Spring quarter began. To my surprise, he got ahold of me when he said he would. That in itself made a positive imoression on me.

i was raised a Catholic and attended parochial schools, which taught me what a horrible person I was. I hated that feeling and my high school graduation was the last time I attended any Catholic services, other than weedings, etc. However, the effect of what a horrible person I was lingered on with me. Being absolutely comvinced I was going to hell, my mental state was in disarray. This WOW convinced me I would not go to hell becuse of Romans 10:9-10. That set me free in so many ways—A new life was upon me.

As a result I went WOW two years in a row, and couldn’t wait for God to work miracle because of me holding forth the word. Excitement turned into ftustration, becsuse instead of seeing any miracles, daily life became quite  boring. No miracles, just day to day humdrums; study, work, witness (not much of that though), fellowship.    

After 20 or so years, I finally I left the Way, but still  tried to make sense of religion.  The harder I tried to see how  religion was of any benefit to me, the more it made no sense. Finally able  to cast the idea there is some God  who us watching over me and only desires the best, I was able to find peace. Realizing I am no more, or less, than anything else in this world, I can follow the path of a human being, and contribute what I can to this planet and universe.
 

i use of my ipad, iphone for phone, email, msg, a few social aps, and that is it. Could probably get by with a much older ios, but keep it updated for secutity reasons. 

i have always wondered why I caused the death of Christ over 2,000 years ago? 
 

https://www.skeptical-science.com/religion/irish-comedian-dave-allen-shares-thoughts-religion/

Thank you for the assistance. On my screen it shows the Noir image and below that  a blank image the same size as Noir. It appears on other’s screens only the printed one is visible.

Anyone know how to delete the blank jpeg image that is above?

I love Harris noting all evolution involves death….those that are not strong are destined to die. Thrown aside with no second thought. The conquerors do not look back and feel sorry for those they have crushed. 
That is how we must look at change in our personal lives;  our past beliefs must die if we are to realize change. As in real life, death of an old idea is very hard to overcome. Past beliefs do not want to go away without a fight. They will hang on in the back of our minds until we make the decision to crush them. Then our transformation is complete, and we can move ahead and challenge our next evolution. 
Change is difficult, but important to our growth. 
 

On 11/18/2021 at 12:26 PM, Raf said:

That is a powerful analogy, STL. An instruction book that needs instruction books to interpret its instructions isn't much of an instruction book at all, is it?

I would only answer that the "Word of God" is the instruction manual, that it is not complicated, and that it is not the Bible.

If I were a believer, that is.

When writing about the bible, and bringing supporting data to, at least, indicate it could be inaccurate, the beliver will scramble to plug the holes. They will expound on how much reading they have done, how open they are to new ideas, and then deny the ascertation exists. 

T-Bone: You give yourself way to much credit if you believe me using the 'lazy-boy-approach' is that it ".... works as a deterrent to me breaking your arguments down point by point." As I said "My long and arduous personal journey has been ridding myself of the belief that there is a God. Period."  Included in that statement, has been ridding myself of the belief that the bible is of any authority. Period. Perhaps I should have stated this in the beginning and not attempted to use any examples?

Again, you give yourself way to much credit if you believe it is of any consequence to me that, "I don’t like to waste my time on really frustrating, manipulative and convoluted hypotheticals." To me the entire bible is frustrating, manipulative and convoluted hypotheticals. Period. 

2 hours ago, cman said:

I get it STL

I have found the enemy and it is us.

I have found God and it is us.

A few clues seem to come up. 

Not by works, the spirit will lead into all truth. 

Is this a cryptic message? What is your point?

1 hour ago, T-Bone said:

The reason I asked if you read the book is because the name of the first chapter in “Making Sense of the Bible” is “What the Bible is Not” and one of the first things Hamilton states is that the Bible “is definitely not written like an owner’s manual” and “is neither basic nor simply instructions for what to do before you die.” (Excerpts from page 8). 

It is interesting that someone had to inform us that the bible, ““is definitely not written like an owner’s manual” and “is neither basic nor simply instructions for what to do before you die.”

Why wasn’t this made clear by God when He had men write it? Why have we had to live thousands of years without this knowledge? Perhaps God, like any competent author would, have included a preface to the bible, that stated exactly why the bible was written and under what circumstances it is to be applied?

And just for the record, I’m not trying to defend Hamilton’s book – but I have a feeling the author’s point  - and myself  - are both probably closer to the sentiment of your previous post than you may think. At the end of the chapter, after touching upon several popular concepts of the Bible, Hamilton says “I’d suggest that each of the above concepts about the Bible is flawed, and when the Bible is read while holding these assumptions the reader will at some point, become confused, misguided, or profoundly disappointed.” (From pages 9 & 10)

The only way the authors or your view of the bible matches mine, is if you consider the bible a book written among many. It has no more moral authority than any other document. 

And again, I’m not trying to defend or soft-sell the book – but that owner’s manual concept that he shoots down in the first chapter of the book really struck a nerve with me. I read Hamilton’s book in 2020 – some 34 years after leaving TWI – and probably like a lot of ex-TWI folks it’s been a long and arduous personal journey extricating myself from the fundamentalism-spiritualism-Gnosticism-mindset of TWI. 

My long and arduous personal journey has been ridding myself of the belief that there is a God. Period. Life has taken on a completely new meaning after finally realizing homo sapiens are nothing more than any other occupant of Earth or the Universe.

I’ve had a career as a technician for most of my adult life – referring to installation & user manuals comes with the territory as well as being contracted to write technical manuals/documentation and even write user manuals and create how-to-videos for technically challenged CEOs.     I think the most important requirements for any technical instructions/owner’s manual should be that they are clear and precise. A direction of “plug the cable into the appropriate port” leaves a lot to be desired and can leave a lot to the imagination of a wisecracking technician...and while I think the Bible is a very profound and inspirational book - it is definitely NOT   clear and precise on just about everything - and so lends itself very easily to a wide variety of interpretations. In my opinion it deals with metaphysical truth and not scientific truth. Scientific truth is clear and precise like H2O - that's how to make water in a chemistry set owner's manual. Truth is the property of being in accord with fact or reality (Wikipedia def.). According to online Britannica truth in metaphysics and the philosophy of language it's the property of sentences, beliefs thoughts, or propositions that are said in ordinary discourse, to agree with the facts or to state what is the case.

Take salvation for an example. Let’s assume you have a friend who is of the Jewish religion, and another who is a Muslim.  and neither believe in Jesus. As a Christian, and there are many different beliefs of salvation in Christianity alone, you adhere to one of them. Further assume all three of you are dyeing at the same time. Your last words to each other are, “I’ll see you in heaven!” Which one of you, if any, will actually be forever with the lord?

One of the first things I threw out of my critical-thinking-tool-kit was wierwille’s “the Bible interprets itself”…what an affront to logic, linguistics, historians, sociologists, anthropologists, and philosophers – not to mention Bible scholars, translators and textual researchers. The Bible is a compilation of 66 different books written by some 40 different authors over the course of an approximately 1500-year period, using basically 3 different languages, spanning a variety of cultural, political, and geographical settings. Needless to say, wierwille's idea that the Bible interprets itself is silly...absurd...laughable...and I can't believe I actually bought into it at one point in my life. In my defense I will say I was young and naïve back then…critical thinking schmitical thinking!  

I’ve said this elsewhere (and let me be clear and precise      on where   it was  - - it was   here >    Can a true believer change his mind?    )  that if it wasn't for all the atheists, agnostics, as well as other viewpoints I've encountered on Grease Spot Café  – I would probably still harbor a  fundamentalism/spiritualism/Gnosticism mindset – even though I was out of TWI and didn't get involved with another ministry or church. I have a lot of respect and admiration for all the atheists and agnostics that I have debated with for keeping it real – which inspired me to try and be more honest and open...helping me unravel the nature of a belief system...often providing very compelling reasons for me to stay grounded in the plain and simple interpretation of Scripture...and I really admire their bare-bones approach to life in the here-and-now – genuinely  appreciating our family and friends and doing things just because it's the right thing to do and not because of  some eternal reward.

As near as I can ascertain, I was a true believer. I bent over backwards trying to do what a good Christian would. I believed in the virgin birth, John came before Christ to introduce him, Jesus spread His Fathers love, was crucified and rose from the dead. I attended church, observed all the holy days.

Today, I can proclaim I am no long a true believer, because there is nothing of sound logic, to believe in.

Stayed Too Long, I think it would be great if you would share your journey on a thread I started   Concerning the Bible confessions of a former fundamentalist      -    folks that have posted there represent a pretty wide spectrum of viewpoints – everything is cool – the only time that thread got a little dicey was when one Grease Spotter tried to debate another Grease Spotter over administrations – one still held to what TWI said about them and the other person didn’t believe in them at all. It was kind of a free-for-all for a bit but then settled down after everyone figured out the thread wasn’t a doctrinal debate – but more like a potluck dinner for Grease Spotters to express their current view of the Bible with no fear of being judged or criticized – whether their view of the Bible was now good or bad – whatever  – or folks don’t have to say anything about the Bible – it’s just a chance for folks to express why there was a change in their viewpoint or why they left or drifted away from TWI’s view of the Bible – ideally what I had in mind was something like a documentary on ex-TWI-followers where folks tell of their journey out and away from TWI – and hopefully any exchange between folks would be respectful and honest. 
 

21 minutes ago, T-Bone said:

Stayed Too Long, that is a powerful analogy !

Did you come up with that after reading Adam Hamilton’s “Making Sense of The Bible”?

I had never heard of the book until this thread and have not read it. My observation is based on decades of believing God was all powerful and desired nothing but the best for me and others. Growing up my highest desire was serving God, going to Catholic Mass Twice a day for years. I wanted to see God work miracles in my life and that of my family and friends. I was so depressed and thought little of myself, but believed God would make me well like my friends. I prayed rosaries, lit candles, went to confession, and received communion,  all to no avail…still depressed. Then a person from the Way witnessed to me and assured me that all I had to do was believe and God would deliver me from all my depression. Believing never brought peace into my life. All the hype of fellowship, classes, and going WOW left me dissolutioned. Finally I went to mental health counseling and got my life turned around. 

I now find it impossible to accept life’s tragedies on ‘faith’ anymore. Believing God needed a young child in heaven when he dies of cancer, is no longer plausible to me. Accepting that a person who is crippled for life is God’s will, is no longer in my thought process.

If one throws out the idea of a God having control of the universe, and things are unfolding as He wants, life is much easier  to understand and accept. Life can be good or life can be a bitch. This way, no one has to dance around the elephant in the room of why terrible things happen to ‘godly people’ while ‘sinners’ live abundantly? 

All advancements in medicine have not resulted from any intervention from God. Polio was beaten because of scientific research, not from a priest calling on God to defeat it. If God could defeat it, He could have prevented it from happening in the first  place. Religion has convinced us, that God, for some reason, will not prevent evil from happening in the world today, even though He has the power to do so. But, if we ‘do His will while on earth,’ whatever that may be, all evil will be destroyed in the future, and we will live the most wonderful life.

 

When purchasing an appliance, for example, the accompanying owner’s manual is very explicit on how to run the devise. When the instructions are followed the appliance will function as advertised. It doesn’t require hundreds, or thousands, of books to make sense of the manual. If the instructions were so poorly written, that thousands of interpretations were needed to make it functional, rational thinking people would discard it.

The bible should be discarded as a way to successfully live life. It has so many possible interpretations, that it is not based on any solid evidence. For example, Catholics claim you must confess your sins to be saved. Others claim confessing sins will not get you heaven, but just confessing Jesus will get you on the high road to salvation. Jews do not even acknowledge Jesus, but claim they are heaven bound. Throw in Muslims and Buddhists and the path to heaven widens drastically. 

It is impossible to comprehend what will happen when your last breath is taken from reading the bible. A more certain outcome is absolutely nothing occurs, other than your body decomposing.  Then have yourself planted next to a tree and fertilize the fruit it produces. The cycle of life  is in full affect when we die also.
 

NIH saif natural immunity was strong and lasted months.

https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/lasting-immunity-found-after-recovery-covid-19

$250.00 to help future Wafers who are as lost and screwed up as I was after leaving TWI. Not sure of the path I would be on if I hadn’t stumbled on GSC. 

A good article showing different cults

https://frankreport.com/2019/09/08/former-member-the-way-international-biblical-ministry-was-rife-with-sexual-excesses-just-like-other-cults/

On 7/22/2021 at 9:45 PM, Rocky said:

The advanced class was all bulls*it... of course it's easier to see 40 some years later. 

Yes, good observation. Looking thru the review mirror, life begins to clear and the fog slowly lifts.

You seem to be the first offshoot originating from GSC?

On 7/7/2021 at 9:46 PM, Rocky said:

Rocky, there are somethings so obvious, they do not have to be explained  to anyone who does not have an axe to grind with the subject at hand. Your post here is a perfect example of ignoring the obvious and going down some rabbit hole, just to argue your point.

Who is we?

WE  would be anyone who maybe familar with the study, someone who may have observed the study matter, the country at large.

To what is money allocated?

The promlem at hand we are concerned with. 

How do "we" (those who make such decisions) know that funding is being directed to actually address the root causes of the problem(s)?

Have you verified  that the funding has been directed to actually address the root causes of all the studies  you have referenced in this thread?

 

3 hours ago, Bolshevik said:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/brucelee/2016/10/12/the-one-thing-to-do-to-stop-the-obesity-epidemic/?sh=62c466666046

 This is pretty much the response to all of the ills in society; the individual is never responsible, but collectively everyone else is responsible. What a cop out.

 

 

 

 

7 hours ago, Bolshevik said:

Wow, this thread.

 

Food and water and air are essentials.

Alcohol and tobacco are not.

Most of the production and distribution of these items are out of our hands, individually speaking.

I think it is well known starvation is not necessary in this world and typically caused by bad governments.  We usually don't point at individuals for starving and say "try harder".

Since 1964 the U.S. has spent over $22 trillion to fight poverty with minimal results. Over 50 years of taking tax payers hard earned money, has been unable to get rid of poverty. Yet we keep throwing more money at it. I believe the definition of insanity applies in spades to this crazy situation. 
The reason I bring this up, is the belief that world hunger, and a host of other problems,  can be solved if the proper governments were in place.  I cannot think,of a better government than the United States Federal Government to administer the war on poverty. But obviously, it has failed drastically. 
https://www.heritage.org/poverty-and-inequality/report/the-war-poverty-after-50-years

I believe this study shows the world would be throwing good money after bad attemping to fix world hunger. It makes us feel good throwing our hard earned money at the problem, but it will not be fixed.

If the world is going to collapse because everyone is fat that sounds like a job for government policies.

 

 

 

 

8 hours ago, Twinky said:

I work with street-homeless people (well, I did until the pandemic; about to resume work).  I've never seen a fat homeless person.  There is plenty of free food available, especially in this city: often carb-loaded, like sandwiches; their fresh veg content is probably lacking; and many drink quite a lot of alcohol.  Some, but by no means all, do drugs; many smoke, rolies usually.  They have a lot of illnesses and their life expectancy is significantly shorter than people who are not homeless.  But they are not fat, never mind obese.

Interesting, perhaps to ponder the differences.

Becoming homeless, however, is perhaps not the best way to lose weight.  I'm not recommending it.

I believe it would be a beneficial study to look at the homeless and discover why they are not fat. To date, the current and past studies done, have not decreased the occurances of overeating in society. But my skepticism says it is just to obvious, and the powers that be will ignore it.

To me it is amazing all the studies that have been done finding out what parts of the brain supposedly cause us to overeat, or abuse drugs or alcohol. We can pinpoint everything, but it has not curbed the abuse! Alcoholism has been around forever but we cannot arrest it. 
One would expect an improvement when studies seem to identify why booze is abused, for example. But, things are only getting worse. We allocate money to fix the problem, but thing get worse. Does that make sense? Apparently it does to those who make such decisions. If you were having trouble in your home with rat infestation, say, and you hired an expert to fix the problem, you would expect results. If the rats continued you would fire the expert, and look at different solutions. Makes sense, doesn’t it? 
https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/alcohol-related-deaths-increasing-united-states

38 minutes ago, Bolshevik said:

I think "stresses" might refer to the overwhelming amount of information in our age coupled with our daily responsibilities.  Add to this the overabundance and easily accessible source cheap tasty foods - and our decision making limits often become overwhelmed.

The amount of work, research, time and focus it takes to achieve a healthy diet is a recipe to fail.

A long time could be spent getting specific on that.

 

Unless we can get under control all of our stresses, daily responsibilities, access to tasty foods, and our decision making limits I am afraid obesity will continue to expand. And like our Social Security program, more will be taking from it than depositing into it. Medical expenses are estimated to be about 12% of all medical costs. 

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/02/180208180356.htm

With us boomers leaving the work force and receiving SS benefits and medicare, the pot of takers is growing. Add to that, the US population is shrinking, things could get bleak.

https://www.npr.org/2019/12/31/792737851/u-s-population-growth-in-2019-is-slowest-in-a-century

8 hours ago, Rocky said:

Has it occurred to you that pervasive advertising on increasingly intrusive media (broadcast radio and tv, print, internet) has induced a sense of hunger when and where and for whom they wouldn't otherwise feel hungry? 

Or perhaps that personal stresses from economic factors and the various ways that changes the internal chemistry for millions has had detrimental impacts on individuals and families ... and might be something outside of what so many people can control?

There were plenty of stresses back in the day. Nuclear war threat was so prevalent, we used to prectice air raid alerts. In school, when the sirens began wailing, we lay under our desks tucking our heads into our chests. Racial tensions were at a much higher rate than today. No nearly as many social  programs were in place to assist people financially and mentally. 

Did you come here to GSC to pontificate before doing any research on the causes of the current public health crisis?

 

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