Stayed Too Long

T-Bone: You give yourself way to much credit if you believe me using the 'lazy-boy-approach' is that it ".... works as a deterrent to me breaking your arguments down point by point." As I said "My long and arduous personal journey has been ridding myself of the belief that there is a God. Period."  Included in that statement, has been ridding myself of the belief that the bible is of any authority. Period. Perhaps I should have stated this in the beginning and not attempted to use any examples?

Again, you give yourself way to much credit if you believe it is of any consequence to me that, "I don’t like to waste my time on really frustrating, manipulative and convoluted hypotheticals." To me the entire bible is frustrating, manipulative and convoluted hypotheticals. Period. 

2 hours ago, cman said:

I get it STL

I have found the enemy and it is us.

I have found God and it is us.

A few clues seem to come up. 

Not by works, the spirit will lead into all truth. 

Is this a cryptic message? What is your point?

1 hour ago, T-Bone said:

The reason I asked if you read the book is because the name of the first chapter in “Making Sense of the Bible” is “What the Bible is Not” and one of the first things Hamilton states is that the Bible “is definitely not written like an owner’s manual” and “is neither basic nor simply instructions for what to do before you die.” (Excerpts from page 8). 

It is interesting that someone had to inform us that the bible, ““is definitely not written like an owner’s manual” and “is neither basic nor simply instructions for what to do before you die.”

Why wasn’t this made clear by God when He had men write it? Why have we had to live thousands of years without this knowledge? Perhaps God, like any competent author would, have included a preface to the bible, that stated exactly why the bible was written and under what circumstances it is to be applied?

And just for the record, I’m not trying to defend Hamilton’s book – but I have a feeling the author’s point  - and myself  - are both probably closer to the sentiment of your previous post than you may think. At the end of the chapter, after touching upon several popular concepts of the Bible, Hamilton says “I’d suggest that each of the above concepts about the Bible is flawed, and when the Bible is read while holding these assumptions the reader will at some point, become confused, misguided, or profoundly disappointed.” (From pages 9 & 10)

The only way the authors or your view of the bible matches mine, is if you consider the bible a book written among many. It has no more moral authority than any other document. 

And again, I’m not trying to defend or soft-sell the book – but that owner’s manual concept that he shoots down in the first chapter of the book really struck a nerve with me. I read Hamilton’s book in 2020 – some 34 years after leaving TWI – and probably like a lot of ex-TWI folks it’s been a long and arduous personal journey extricating myself from the fundamentalism-spiritualism-Gnosticism-mindset of TWI. 

My long and arduous personal journey has been ridding myself of the belief that there is a God. Period. Life has taken on a completely new meaning after finally realizing homo sapiens are nothing more than any other occupant of Earth or the Universe.

I’ve had a career as a technician for most of my adult life – referring to installation & user manuals comes with the territory as well as being contracted to write technical manuals/documentation and even write user manuals and create how-to-videos for technically challenged CEOs.     I think the most important requirements for any technical instructions/owner’s manual should be that they are clear and precise. A direction of “plug the cable into the appropriate port” leaves a lot to be desired and can leave a lot to the imagination of a wisecracking technician...and while I think the Bible is a very profound and inspirational book - it is definitely NOT   clear and precise on just about everything - and so lends itself very easily to a wide variety of interpretations. In my opinion it deals with metaphysical truth and not scientific truth. Scientific truth is clear and precise like H2O - that's how to make water in a chemistry set owner's manual. Truth is the property of being in accord with fact or reality (Wikipedia def.). According to online Britannica truth in metaphysics and the philosophy of language it's the property of sentences, beliefs thoughts, or propositions that are said in ordinary discourse, to agree with the facts or to state what is the case.

Take salvation for an example. Let’s assume you have a friend who is of the Jewish religion, and another who is a Muslim.  and neither believe in Jesus. As a Christian, and there are many different beliefs of salvation in Christianity alone, you adhere to one of them. Further assume all three of you are dyeing at the same time. Your last words to each other are, “I’ll see you in heaven!” Which one of you, if any, will actually be forever with the lord?

One of the first things I threw out of my critical-thinking-tool-kit was wierwille’s “the Bible interprets itself”…what an affront to logic, linguistics, historians, sociologists, anthropologists, and philosophers – not to mention Bible scholars, translators and textual researchers. The Bible is a compilation of 66 different books written by some 40 different authors over the course of an approximately 1500-year period, using basically 3 different languages, spanning a variety of cultural, political, and geographical settings. Needless to say, wierwille's idea that the Bible interprets itself is silly...absurd...laughable...and I can't believe I actually bought into it at one point in my life. In my defense I will say I was young and naïve back then…critical thinking schmitical thinking!  

I’ve said this elsewhere (and let me be clear and precise      on where   it was  - - it was   here >    Can a true believer change his mind?    )  that if it wasn't for all the atheists, agnostics, as well as other viewpoints I've encountered on Grease Spot Café  – I would probably still harbor a  fundamentalism/spiritualism/Gnosticism mindset – even though I was out of TWI and didn't get involved with another ministry or church. I have a lot of respect and admiration for all the atheists and agnostics that I have debated with for keeping it real – which inspired me to try and be more honest and open...helping me unravel the nature of a belief system...often providing very compelling reasons for me to stay grounded in the plain and simple interpretation of Scripture...and I really admire their bare-bones approach to life in the here-and-now – genuinely  appreciating our family and friends and doing things just because it's the right thing to do and not because of  some eternal reward.

As near as I can ascertain, I was a true believer. I bent over backwards trying to do what a good Christian would. I believed in the virgin birth, John came before Christ to introduce him, Jesus spread His Fathers love, was crucified and rose from the dead. I attended church, observed all the holy days.

Today, I can proclaim I am no long a true believer, because there is nothing of sound logic, to believe in.

Stayed Too Long, I think it would be great if you would share your journey on a thread I started   Concerning the Bible confessions of a former fundamentalist      -    folks that have posted there represent a pretty wide spectrum of viewpoints – everything is cool – the only time that thread got a little dicey was when one Grease Spotter tried to debate another Grease Spotter over administrations – one still held to what TWI said about them and the other person didn’t believe in them at all. It was kind of a free-for-all for a bit but then settled down after everyone figured out the thread wasn’t a doctrinal debate – but more like a potluck dinner for Grease Spotters to express their current view of the Bible with no fear of being judged or criticized – whether their view of the Bible was now good or bad – whatever  – or folks don’t have to say anything about the Bible – it’s just a chance for folks to express why there was a change in their viewpoint or why they left or drifted away from TWI’s view of the Bible – ideally what I had in mind was something like a documentary on ex-TWI-followers where folks tell of their journey out and away from TWI – and hopefully any exchange between folks would be respectful and honest. 
 

21 minutes ago, T-Bone said:

Stayed Too Long, that is a powerful analogy !

Did you come up with that after reading Adam Hamilton’s “Making Sense of The Bible”?

I had never heard of the book until this thread and have not read it. My observation is based on decades of believing God was all powerful and desired nothing but the best for me and others. Growing up my highest desire was serving God, going to Catholic Mass Twice a day for years. I wanted to see God work miracles in my life and that of my family and friends. I was so depressed and thought little of myself, but believed God would make me well like my friends. I prayed rosaries, lit candles, went to confession, and received communion,  all to no avail…still depressed. Then a person from the Way witnessed to me and assured me that all I had to do was believe and God would deliver me from all my depression. Believing never brought peace into my life. All the hype of fellowship, classes, and going WOW left me dissolutioned. Finally I went to mental health counseling and got my life turned around. 

I now find it impossible to accept life’s tragedies on ‘faith’ anymore. Believing God needed a young child in heaven when he dies of cancer, is no longer plausible to me. Accepting that a person who is crippled for life is God’s will, is no longer in my thought process.

If one throws out the idea of a God having control of the universe, and things are unfolding as He wants, life is much easier  to understand and accept. Life can be good or life can be a bitch. This way, no one has to dance around the elephant in the room of why terrible things happen to ‘godly people’ while ‘sinners’ live abundantly? 

All advancements in medicine have not resulted from any intervention from God. Polio was beaten because of scientific research, not from a priest calling on God to defeat it. If God could defeat it, He could have prevented it from happening in the first  place. Religion has convinced us, that God, for some reason, will not prevent evil from happening in the world today, even though He has the power to do so. But, if we ‘do His will while on earth,’ whatever that may be, all evil will be destroyed in the future, and we will live the most wonderful life.

 

When purchasing an appliance, for example, the accompanying owner’s manual is very explicit on how to run the devise. When the instructions are followed the appliance will function as advertised. It doesn’t require hundreds, or thousands, of books to make sense of the manual. If the instructions were so poorly written, that thousands of interpretations were needed to make it functional, rational thinking people would discard it.

The bible should be discarded as a way to successfully live life. It has so many possible interpretations, that it is not based on any solid evidence. For example, Catholics claim you must confess your sins to be saved. Others claim confessing sins will not get you heaven, but just confessing Jesus will get you on the high road to salvation. Jews do not even acknowledge Jesus, but claim they are heaven bound. Throw in Muslims and Buddhists and the path to heaven widens drastically. 

It is impossible to comprehend what will happen when your last breath is taken from reading the bible. A more certain outcome is absolutely nothing occurs, other than your body decomposing.  Then have yourself planted next to a tree and fertilize the fruit it produces. The cycle of life  is in full affect when we die also.
 

NIH saif natural immunity was strong and lasted months.

https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/lasting-immunity-found-after-recovery-covid-19

$250.00 to help future Wafers who are as lost and screwed up as I was after leaving TWI. Not sure of the path I would be on if I hadn’t stumbled on GSC. 

A good article showing different cults

https://frankreport.com/2019/09/08/former-member-the-way-international-biblical-ministry-was-rife-with-sexual-excesses-just-like-other-cults/

On 7/22/2021 at 9:45 PM, Rocky said:

The advanced class was all bulls*it... of course it's easier to see 40 some years later. 

Yes, good observation. Looking thru the review mirror, life begins to clear and the fog slowly lifts.

You seem to be the first offshoot originating from GSC?

On 7/7/2021 at 9:46 PM, Rocky said:

Rocky, there are somethings so obvious, they do not have to be explained  to anyone who does not have an axe to grind with the subject at hand. Your post here is a perfect example of ignoring the obvious and going down some rabbit hole, just to argue your point.

Who is we?

WE  would be anyone who maybe familar with the study, someone who may have observed the study matter, the country at large.

To what is money allocated?

The promlem at hand we are concerned with. 

How do "we" (those who make such decisions) know that funding is being directed to actually address the root causes of the problem(s)?

Have you verified  that the funding has been directed to actually address the root causes of all the studies  you have referenced in this thread?

 

3 hours ago, Bolshevik said:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/brucelee/2016/10/12/the-one-thing-to-do-to-stop-the-obesity-epidemic/?sh=62c466666046

 This is pretty much the response to all of the ills in society; the individual is never responsible, but collectively everyone else is responsible. What a cop out.

 

 

 

 

7 hours ago, Bolshevik said:

Wow, this thread.

 

Food and water and air are essentials.

Alcohol and tobacco are not.

Most of the production and distribution of these items are out of our hands, individually speaking.

I think it is well known starvation is not necessary in this world and typically caused by bad governments.  We usually don't point at individuals for starving and say "try harder".

Since 1964 the U.S. has spent over $22 trillion to fight poverty with minimal results. Over 50 years of taking tax payers hard earned money, has been unable to get rid of poverty. Yet we keep throwing more money at it. I believe the definition of insanity applies in spades to this crazy situation. 
The reason I bring this up, is the belief that world hunger, and a host of other problems,  can be solved if the proper governments were in place.  I cannot think,of a better government than the United States Federal Government to administer the war on poverty. But obviously, it has failed drastically. 
https://www.heritage.org/poverty-and-inequality/report/the-war-poverty-after-50-years

I believe this study shows the world would be throwing good money after bad attemping to fix world hunger. It makes us feel good throwing our hard earned money at the problem, but it will not be fixed.

If the world is going to collapse because everyone is fat that sounds like a job for government policies.

 

 

 

 

8 hours ago, Twinky said:

I work with street-homeless people (well, I did until the pandemic; about to resume work).  I've never seen a fat homeless person.  There is plenty of free food available, especially in this city: often carb-loaded, like sandwiches; their fresh veg content is probably lacking; and many drink quite a lot of alcohol.  Some, but by no means all, do drugs; many smoke, rolies usually.  They have a lot of illnesses and their life expectancy is significantly shorter than people who are not homeless.  But they are not fat, never mind obese.

Interesting, perhaps to ponder the differences.

Becoming homeless, however, is perhaps not the best way to lose weight.  I'm not recommending it.

I believe it would be a beneficial study to look at the homeless and discover why they are not fat. To date, the current and past studies done, have not decreased the occurances of overeating in society. But my skepticism says it is just to obvious, and the powers that be will ignore it.

To me it is amazing all the studies that have been done finding out what parts of the brain supposedly cause us to overeat, or abuse drugs or alcohol. We can pinpoint everything, but it has not curbed the abuse! Alcoholism has been around forever but we cannot arrest it. 
One would expect an improvement when studies seem to identify why booze is abused, for example. But, things are only getting worse. We allocate money to fix the problem, but thing get worse. Does that make sense? Apparently it does to those who make such decisions. If you were having trouble in your home with rat infestation, say, and you hired an expert to fix the problem, you would expect results. If the rats continued you would fire the expert, and look at different solutions. Makes sense, doesn’t it? 
https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/alcohol-related-deaths-increasing-united-states

38 minutes ago, Bolshevik said:

I think "stresses" might refer to the overwhelming amount of information in our age coupled with our daily responsibilities.  Add to this the overabundance and easily accessible source cheap tasty foods - and our decision making limits often become overwhelmed.

The amount of work, research, time and focus it takes to achieve a healthy diet is a recipe to fail.

A long time could be spent getting specific on that.

 

Unless we can get under control all of our stresses, daily responsibilities, access to tasty foods, and our decision making limits I am afraid obesity will continue to expand. And like our Social Security program, more will be taking from it than depositing into it. Medical expenses are estimated to be about 12% of all medical costs. 

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/02/180208180356.htm

With us boomers leaving the work force and receiving SS benefits and medicare, the pot of takers is growing. Add to that, the US population is shrinking, things could get bleak.

https://www.npr.org/2019/12/31/792737851/u-s-population-growth-in-2019-is-slowest-in-a-century

8 hours ago, Rocky said:

Has it occurred to you that pervasive advertising on increasingly intrusive media (broadcast radio and tv, print, internet) has induced a sense of hunger when and where and for whom they wouldn't otherwise feel hungry? 

Or perhaps that personal stresses from economic factors and the various ways that changes the internal chemistry for millions has had detrimental impacts on individuals and families ... and might be something outside of what so many people can control?

There were plenty of stresses back in the day. Nuclear war threat was so prevalent, we used to prectice air raid alerts. In school, when the sirens began wailing, we lay under our desks tucking our heads into our chests. Racial tensions were at a much higher rate than today. No nearly as many social  programs were in place to assist people financially and mentally. 

Did you come here to GSC to pontificate before doing any research on the causes of the current public health crisis?

 

Quote

 

Currently, I am in  the process of shedding 20 lbs that was gained over the past few years. When I try to analyze how the weight gains occurred, the holidays and snack foods surface to the top. All those deliciously prepared meals and left overs are too much for me to avoid. Worse yet, all the chips and candies throughout the year are a killer. Craft beet is also a major problem, but the soaring prices has gotten me to imbibe very little anymore. Also at 300-400 calories per glass, it will pack the pounds on like there is no tomorrow. 
But when I look back at the 70’s and 80’s, there was no problem pushing back from the table after eating a plate full of food.  An additional plate of 2’000 calories was not craved like they are today, not to mention a couple servings of apple pie a la Mode. 
Back then a single serving of potato chips was adequate, but now I sit down with a bag of family sized chips, and who knows when it will be deemed enough. 
In the past I attended Overeaters Anonymous, but it was to no avail at all. I left because everyone was always going to start a diet sometime in the future. After going to meetings for a year, and not seeing anyone lose weight, I dropped out. Now, every couple of years, I go through this ritual of losing a few pounds, hoping, maybe, the extra weight will stay off this time. 
 

2 hours ago, Rocky said:

It may be "preventable" but doing so is not necessarily simple. If it were, why are so many people not able to prevent or reverse it? 

Getting off of drugs and alcohol are not simple either, and there are programs available to help. There are the 12 step programs of AA and NA, private counseling, inpatient programs, and probably others also. For those wanting assistance losing weight the is the 12 step program OA. There is also private counseling available, and for severe case, medical intervention may be necessary.

The thing that got me thinking about obesity was a picture I saw of a crowd of people in 1970. Most people were trim and fit with only one person visible  who was over weight, and not obese. A picture in 2015 showed many over weight and obese people. 

What has occurred in the past 50 years that can explain this phenomenon? There were fast  food restaurants and processed food in the 70’s, yet people were able to maintain a healthy weight. My guess is portion control. It seems that once a person begins eating excess food, the food becomes a drug just like a narcotic or alcohol. It is uncontrollable and the demand for it is overwhelming, with many unable to deal with it responsibly. 
 

If you observe a man or woman smoking a pack of cigarettes a day, you can make the assumption, if they have lung cancer, the tobacco played a major roll. Likewise, if you see a person drinking to excess, and is involved in an accident, you can rationalize the booze was a major contributer. They will probably be issued a DUI by the police. Likewise, if you observe a person who is obese eating a triple cheese burger, superized fries, and large Coke, you can make the assumtion the calorie intake has contributed to them being over weight. At home, eating large portion at a meal, will also contribute to being over weight.

Tune into the television show “My 600 Pound Body” to observe how much and what obese people eat. They have absolutely no control over how much they eat in a day.

You  could look at food pyramids to see if they can contribute to weight gain, but first let’s get the calorie intake under control. 
 

Being over weight and obese is a serious health problem.

https://infogram.com/us-adult-obesity-rates-since-1960-1gzxop49on65mwy

The cost is becoming astronomical.

https://onlinepublichealth.gwu.edu/resources/cost-of-obesity-in-us/

Obesity is preventable, so what are your thoughts on why we continue to put our health in jeopardy? To me, we know it is not healthy, but continue to eat more and more. We even come up with new terms to make being obese seem normal. BBW (Big Beautiful Woman,) is a created term used to describe a woman who is living unhealthy. It is not beautiful to see someone put their health at tisk. The same describes a man who is obese or over weight. Often times, if someone mentions it, they are accused of “fat shaming” someone. But we have no problem telling someone who smokes they are putting their health st risk. If a friend is addicted to drugs, we will point out to them that it is not healthy. It seems we have a double standard on approacing health. We don’t want to “hurt someone’s feelings” by telling them they are living an unhealthy life style. I believe the path we are on will continue to make our country unhealthy.

Mike,

Is it just semantics that you cannot figure out who are currently in charge at TWI? You call them the Board of Trustees and the Way calls them the Board of Directors on their web page. Same difference, no?

1 hour ago, T-Bone said:

you are confusing an article of faith – which is a firmly held belief (like the belief in the return of Jesus Christ) with magical thinking.

I will address your request for a plausible link that JC’s return is going to happen after a few preparatory remarks by way of review...

So...let’s review (from my previous post):

Faith: Faith in God simply means God is the OBJECT of our faith – our thoughts, our feelings are directed toward him. Faith is a strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof

magical thinking: “Magical thinking, or superstitious thinking, is the belief that unrelated events are causally connected despite the absence of any plausible causal link between them, particularly as a result of supernatural effects…Examples include the idea that personal thoughts can influence the external world without acting on them...In psychology, magical thinking is the belief that one's thoughts by themselves can bring about effects in the world or that thinking something corresponds with doing it. “

 

Now to address your question I will first need to straighten out the confusion.

Is there a causal connection between    my behavior, action, inaction or thoughts and the return of Jesus Christ? The answer is no. I have nothing to do with making it happen (if indeed it really is going to happen). 

Do I have any proof that it is going to happen? Again no.

Do I have any proof that Jesus Christ ever existed, was born, walked the Earth, suffered and died on the cross? Once again no.

Do I have any proof that Jesus Christ was raised from the dead and ascended into heaven? No...

and to complete the rest of your inquisition I have no proof of Moses parting the Red Sea   ( you said  The Dead Sea  ) , I’m not aware of any extra-biblical evidence of that, I’m not aware of anything of that magnitude happening or being witnessed in the last century. I have not heard of any capsized boats and the survivors walking to shore – I’m assuming you mean in deep water – cuz I have just the story of being on a canoe with my drunk friends – and Steve who didn’t have his sea legs - - I mean river legs – tried to bust a move to impress some girls on the river bank – wound up tipping the canoe over...river was only 3 feet deep...and of course we walked through the water and not on it to drag the canoe ashore. Don’t think the girls were impressed.

The belief of the Easter bunny is debunked because it falls into the catagory of superstition. And the religious critetia mentioned above also fall into the catagory of superstition. But now has been put into the catagory of faith, which allows it to be “unsuperstitioned” and allowed to stand as a valid belief.
That is like saying a student must have a 3.0 gpa to attend graduate school, but somehow a 2.5 gpa is acceptable to a patticular student because a new catagory has been created  just for them.
 

I just have to say, the title of this thread and your first and second post were a little misleading. I’m not complaining just making an observation. I know I can go all over the map (and I often do    ...and be forewarned it might happen again because I'm easily distracted   ) but it doesn’t help when I’m confused on what direction you want to go. First I thought you were wanting to talk about the 41,000 Christian groups and how does one decide on which group, beliefs, etc...then it was what about all the other religions...then how do you know there even is a God...then can you judge TWI doctrine apart from their modus operandi...then back to what proof do you have that anything mentioned in the Bible really happened...okay – I get it now, you really wanted to have a philosophical discussion about “why do you believe in a God at all?” (quoting from your first post). I thought I answered that in my first post but I will reiterate my reason here – because I want to.

Being there are 41,000 Christian religions, I did present how almost impossible it would be to rifle through 410,000 pages, (10 pages allowed per religion to document their beliefs), to help determine which one is correct to follow. Then after you have done that, study the other major religions of the world to include them in your decision. 
It is an impossible task to undertake in a lifetime. Therefore, how did you determine, if you do practice a relgion, it declares the real beliefs of God?

11 hours ago, T-Bone said:

Well now that you’ve clarified what you’re looking for, I can cut to the chase – it’s a three part answer.

Part A - doctrine:    The Way International’s window-dressing-doctrine is a somewhat innocuous blend of fundamentalism, ultradispensationalism, spiritualism and Gnosticism. Probably no different than some of the other groups  out there…now their inner sanctum stuff of dubious teachings like the law of believing/health and wealth scam and all that whacked out $hit in the advanced class may distinguish them somewhat in a who’s who of nonsense-to-waste-your-time-and-money-groups   ….but overall none of that is my cup of tea now anyway   -  so TWI wouldn’t be very high on my preference list. But that’s just me.

 

Part B - practice: What makes The Way International a harmful exploitative cult and a really bad choice out of the list of Christian groups are their methods. Their hypocrisy, secrecy and money grubbing practices indicates a serious disconnect from their window-dressing-doctrine. 

( * and it's debatable if they should even be considered a Christian group   )

Part C - spiritual journey in progress:  I've already expressed in my previous post I haven't figured it all out and I continue to check out a lot of things.

 

Technically there is a difference between a faith in God and magical thinking.

Faith in God simply means God is the OBJECT of our faith – our thoughts, our feelings are directed toward him. Faith is a strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof...I mean it's faith - what more do you want ? 

With magical thinking, thoughts and feelings are directed toward some event or future event, object or person:

“Magical thinking, or superstitious thinking, is the belief that unrelated events are causally connected despite the absence of any plausible causal link between them, particularly as a result of supernatural effects…Examples include the idea that personal thoughts can influence the external world without acting on them...In psychology, magical thinking is the belief that one's thoughts by themselves can bring about effects in the world or that thinking something corresponds with doing it. “

from   SWikipedia - magical thinking

Let’s take the return of Jesus as an example. It fits perfectly with “the belief that unrelated events are casually connected despite the absence of any plausible casual link betweem them.” What plausible  casual  link can you provide it is going to happen, other than being proposed in a book written thousands of years ago? Is there scientific evidence it will take place? 
Let’s exam Moses parting the Dead Sea. Other than it being declared in the bible, is there any other proof it took place? Has anything of that magnitude been seen by anyone in the last century? 
What  of Jesus being raised from the dead? Again, other than the bible, has anyone witnessed others being brought back to life after being entombed for three days?  
I have not heard of anyone saying that when their boat capsized, they walked to shore. What evidence can you present that this happened?
These are all stories that have been passed along, just like the one of Santa leaving gifts to all good boys and girls on Dec 24. No evidence they have happened, or will happen, sometime in the future. 

 

 

 

 

from the perspective of faith, a person acknowledges they are not God and in fact need God’s help.

With magical thinking, God is not needed. It’s all up to you and you alone.

20 hours ago, T-Bone said:

How do you define someone, newly coming on the scene? Is the someone newly coming on the scene from outer space, raised by wolves, created in a lab? I am not making fun – you pose an interesting scenario. Or did you have some other hypothetical situation in mind?

Newly coming on the scene: This would be a person who had never heard anything at all about The Way. They were never exposed to all the negative or positive information about the group. They were starting a new in their quest to figure out which of the 41,000 Christian groups was the one for them. Many currently today dismiss the teachings of the Way because they were plagiarized, or the because founder used women sexually, or the Way demanded tithes many could not afford. But if the new seeker had no knowledge of any of this, and only read the 10 page booklet, where would their beliefs fall amoung the other 39,999? Would Jesus Christ is Not God seem an acceptable doctrine? Would speaking in tongues be high or low the acceptable beliefs? What have the other 39,999 religions taught on this. My point is if we judged the teachings of the Way strictly on their doctrines and not the character of its leaders, would it rate in the top 15,000?
We judge the teaching of the Way from the perspective of the major Christian religions in the West. What about all the other Christian religions we are not aware of? 

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Not sure what you’re looking for – so I decided to reflect on my own journey and share a few thoughts – hopefully it brings something to the table and touches a few relevant points of your thought provoking post.

I first came into this world I viewed my mother – and gradually my father as gods – they were all powerful – they were everything to me – and maybe I was not even aware I was separate from them...eventually I figured out somehow I was distinct from them...I followed in the belief system of my parents (Roman Catholic) – their belief system attempted to explain how the world works...as a teenager I got caught up in the counterculture of the 60s and 70s, got into the arts and music, experimented with drugs, looked into Eastern religions, E.S.P., dated a girl who went to Twig, took the PFAL class, yada yada yada WOW, Way Corps, discovered wierwille was a thief, liar and sexual predator so I escaped from crazy town…this began my crisis of faith and loosed me into uncharted waters.

 

I took everything back to square one and asked myself do I believe there is a God? To put it another way I asked myself do I believe this whole thing is an accident or is there a creator? Being a technical minded person it seemed logical and now also learning to be more intuitive it felt comforting to imagine there was some intelligence or higher power behind it all...so going forward from my crisis of faith in 1986, I’ll relate some of my journey thus far to your scenarios of repairing an engine and finding a PFAL book and determining if it had any validity or not. 

 

When I first got married I had a Ford 3-speed Econoline Van and my wife had a VW Beetle. Having a good mechanical aptitude (and learned a lot helping my Dad, older brother and friends work on their cars) – and also out of necessity – I did all the maintenance and repairs on both vehicles. Back then we didn’t have a handy thing like the Internet and You Tube – but there was The Bible of auto repairs – The Chilton’s Auto Repair Manuals with editions that were specific to your year, make and model...I’ve replaced clutches, rebuilt carburetors, replaced timing chains, done tune-ups, replaced brakes, and a lot of electrical troubleshooting. We judge it from the perspective of

My point about the the auto repair is there is only one way to replace a clutch or rebuild a carburator. But there are  unlimited ways to get to heaven according to different religions. Which one is absolutely correct? Are you sure your way is really right? What if you die and find your way us wrong? Catholics say you better not have a mortal sin or you are doomed. Some say you confess once and you have no worries. Others go back and pray for their dead ancestors  so they can sneak in. Others say you will come back reincarnated. 
What the other major religions teach I have no idea, but what if the religion practiced in the rain forest is the actual one God setup to get you to heaven? We all have missed the boat. See you in hell.

Now a flimsy attempt to tie this all together with what you brought up.

 

I think we all have an innate desire to make sense of the world and figure out how best to negotiate our way through life. From an early age we learn so many valuable and practical things about life – wherever we’re from. Depending on how much we pay attention we learn to sort through what works and what doesn’t work. Like my experiences with working on cars. Like the first time I changed the oil on my 67 Chevy Malibu. I was in a hurry and didn’t tighten the bolt that goes through the oil filter - - oops - so I left a thick trail of oil in the driveway and down the block – good thing my brother flagged me down...Some shortcuts don't work out so good  .

 

So lets say I find a PFAL book. I know nothing about the author and I know very little about the Bible. Which describes what I was like when I first took PFAL. One red flag would be the stuff on the law of believing. Reality doesn’t work like that – magical thinking is a phony shortcut to success - and I’m assuming there’s no aggressive snake oil salesmen around to convince me otherwise...other issues might pop up if and when my technical nature would kick in and I decide to study up on the biblical languages and other “technical references” such as systematic theologies, commentaries, Bible studies, etc. and use good analytical skills to spot logical fallacies...you know, any book by itself might seem okay. But in the grand scheme of things - how does it fit in? How big is "the grand scheme"? What's the big picture? My idea of the big picture seems to be getting bigger all the time.

There are people who profess  that believing in God is nothing more than magical thinking. As we grew up we realized santa clause, tooth fairy, and Easter bunny do not exist. But we will just not let go of god. We can prove there is no tooth fairy by putting a tooth under our pillow, and observing it all night. In the morning the rotting tooth will still be under the pillow.  How can you prove because Jesus Christ lived you have the opportunity to go to heaven? Other than it being taught through the ages how do you know for sure?

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well...anyway...that’s just me – and as I said I’m on a journey through uncharted waters – and I’m a lot more open minded to other belief systems now...Reading (and re-reading) Jean Shinoda Bolen's short but insightful book "The Tao of Psychology: Synchronicity and the Self" got me into wanting to understand not only more about Taoism but also Jungian psychology. Carl Jung was a research scientist fascinated with the similar concerns found in many religions and the nature of the self...the guiding principles of my journey are partly intuitive and partly analytical. I am still inspired by the Word of God but I’m seeing things on a broader spectrum now after reading Rob Bell’s "Love Wins". After reading that book - God seems so much more relatable...Jesus Christ seems much more ...pervasive...expansive..."Love Wins" is probably one of the most thought provoking and thought challenging books I've read in a long time!

As far as what criteria would I use to choose a religion - I would look at how they deal with the human condition - if they seemed fair, practical and above all compassionate. I would choose the one that came closest to doing those things extremely well.

 

thanks for your thoughtful post - it really got me thinking about a lot of things

peace !