Stayed Too Long

3 hours ago, penworks said:

I keep those messages confidential. But one thing I can tell you without naming names is one person asked whether I knew if their mother was one of VPW's "girls." I did and I told that person the truth, which they said they already suspected from comments they'd heard directly from their mother, who was a Corps grad. I also know she solicited other women for VPW. 

How would you like to hear that about your mother?

Certainly it would be difficult to accept and process. It is hard for children to image anything sexual about their parents.

3 hours ago, Stayed Too Long said:

I recall VPW saying he personally knew Billy Graham and Oral Roberts, and he wanted to get together with them to move the word over the world. VPW’s vision was for Graham to get peole born again, Robert’s to heal them, and Wierwille would teach them the word. Obviously they did not agree with him, or he made it all up.

 

2 hours ago, chockfull said:

Yeah.  You don’t read apparently which adds to the issues.

Look back at your first response to me 3 posts up and tell me one more time how it’s my imagination you used the word “started” .  It’s real hard to miss it’s the 9th word of your post.

SORRY, I overlooked it. My apologize.

Just to point out - when something real occurs but you deny it and accuse it being in someone’s imagination, that practice is called “gaslighting”

Let me assure you I am in no way attemting to gaslight you. You are also convinced Rocky is gaslighting you. Anyone else? 

I recall VPW saying he personally knew Billy Graham and Oral Roberts, and he wanted to get together with them to move the word over the world. VPW’s vision was for Graham to get peole born again, Robert’s to heal them, and Wierwille would teach them the word.

Since being so totally taken in and deceived by VPW and TWI I now find myself being very critical of things that people say. When an ad appears on TV my immediate reaction is what is the hook they are using to reel me in.
Especially when someone quotes something they heard via social media, i immediately want to know who is their source? So many on social media are only interested in their 15 minutes of fame and will say about anything.

Always in the back of my mind is the realization I once was tricked by a con man and I do not want to allow this to happen again.

These articles are very helpful to ensure I can make an informed decision about what I am listening  to.

1 hour ago, chockfull said:

No you were not “merely pointing out” I’m not doing this again.  
Apparently we must take your postings as absolute with no possible ways to add, question, or clarify them?

I gave a reason for my personal past decision regarding kids.

I respect your personal decisions regarding kids and absolutely support you.

You didn’t like that I said atheism is a label used to target by fundamentalist Christians.

I said atheism was a term used by society, which would include fumdamentalist Christians.

 Is that statement untrue?

It is 100% true. You have my vote.

  No it is 100 percent true.

Absolutely!

Then you twisted my statement and contradicted it by citing a dictionary and saying oooh no it wasn’t “started” by fundamentalist Christians.

I reread all of my posts and could not find anwhere using the word “started,” was used. This is your imagination.

I never said “started”.  
See above statement

I am going to stop posting personal details because God doesn’t want me casting pearls before swine.

You are posting in the atheist section so you can expect there to be at least one swine present. 

You in the analogy are a jack@$$ that is represented by the swine comparison just to completely clarify.

In another recent post you apologized for calling me names. 

I’m out.

Yep, this is STL: Keep your pearls well hidden when you see a post from a raging atheist!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

3 hours ago, chockfull said:

Sweet picking at my personal sharing.  Who the f cares what Merriam-Webster says.

Why do you believe I am sweet picking at your personal sharing? I merely pointed out the definition was more widely used other that by fundamentals Christians.

So I’m wrong I’m not worrying about them being an atheist according to a dictionary?

What about you? So you have kids?  Are you married?  What is your skin in the game in all this beyond “it occurred to me while driving”
…”while driving,” is a great time to think about things. One of the thoughts I had is what initiated the subject of this thread.

Does it matter what my “skin in the game,” is? What difference does it make if my family is like The Brady Bunch or Leave it to Beaver’s family? Whether I am divorced a half a dozen times, or happily married for over 50 years? If I have two kids in the penitentiary and three others barely scraping  by? 

If you wanna raise kids via dictionaries then try it and tell me how it goes.

We are only discussing the the term atheist and how it was defined, not me running to the library and finding the desktop dictionary everytime I have a question about raising my family. 
You said atheist was a “classification label used by fundamentalist Christians.” I merely pointed out it was a term used much morely widely by society. 
I am not trying to attack or belittle you in any way, just adding to the conversation.

Thats the last personal info sharing I’m giving on this thread.  And mostly why I don’t share personal things much here as there’s always that one person.

If you believe your personal sharings should not be subject to discussion by others, by all means you have made the right decision to no longer post them.

 

1 hour ago, chockfull said:

My kids have seen the impact of a fundamentalist Christian cult on our lives and have experienced some of that as children.  

They are very aware of the abuse involved with Way leadership and their treatment of us as ministers.

They will never go to anything related to Wierwille or the Way.  That is 100 percent due to the actions of current and former leadership and their putrid example of Christianity.  

They are grown and out of the house and exploring on their own growing and developing their own ideas and spiritual views and priorities.  

I don’t worry about them being an “atheist” as that is a classification label used by judgmental fundamentalist Christians.

The definition  of an atheist is not one started by fundamentalist Christians. Merriam Webster defines an atheist as:
 

1. a person who does not believe in the existence of a supreme being or beings.

2. a person who believes that there is no supreme being or beings.

They are wonderful caring contributing members of society that are balanced and help others.  One organized at their work a group making blankets for the homeless, which will help the homeless infinitely more than “the class” would.  

I’m sure many would have questions about them but I don’t want to write a lot of personal details.  They deserve the privacy of enjoying their lives without more cult backlash.  That is another reason why I’m not writing a memoir. 

I’m sure they will probably at some point get witnessed to or sent a postcard.  They can respond with a puzzling look and a “no thank you”.  Much better than an entangled life of lies and bondage.

Kids growing up in a cult have a special Dante’s Inferno they endure.  Mine have.  I need their adult lives to be free from that and not impacted by my decisions and goals.  They certainly don’t need impact from any personal moglet ascension priorities which I don’t have unlike 98% of my former friends in the Way Corpse.

 

 

1 hour ago, Rocky said:

Is that all?

Each of your points seems to be about what they wouldn't have to do. What WOULD they believe about life and creation?

How do you envision answering the child's big questions?

You posed an intriguing thought experiment.

From birth I would reinforce with my child he or she should make the world a better place.
At work, I once had an acquaintance who was an atheist and I was a Wayfer. Of course, I felt he was a complete counterfeit using the devil to mimic God’s good works. He was doing goodworks but not for the glory of God. Especially, why should I be concerned about helping anyone other than active believers in the household of God?
He explained that everyday he walked about the earth looking to do good. That might include helping a person, working with a group that he felt was important, reading a book, doing a good job at work, or visiting with friends. A person’s religious belief did not enter into his reason for doing anything. 
I doubt if he was concerned about acquiring rewards, or losing rewards, by impressing or disappointing a god. 
 

On 10/1/2023 at 10:18 AM, chockfull said:

Maybe you should own the book at least if you are illustrating it as something that is pertinent to the topic.

Have you read it or is it just a recommendation on Good Reads from someone?

I guess we are to assume every illustration you have taken from a book, is sitting on the shelf in your library, or an ebook you have read?

On 10/1/2023 at 10:41 AM, chockfull said:

I don’t view atheists as having reprobate minds.  I think I called you some names though over the hypocrisy of purporting to speak for what God wants while not believing in Him.

God does view me as having a reprobate mind….oh well! God doesn’t have anything good to say about me.

I was over the line calling you names.  I apologize.

Thank you and apology accepted

The scenario I can think of regarding the 70 x 7 answer I can make a parallel to my dogs behavior.  I have a hound pup whose nose gets him in trouble and I have to get after him 70 times a day easily.  But I can’t get bitter towards him because he’s a pain.  He’s a sweet pup.  Sometimes I get exhausted dealing with him so he goes in his crate and wife and I get a break.

Thats probably a stupid example but it’s the working one I have.

 

22 minutes ago, Charity said:

Referencing back to my previous posts on forgiveness, here is what Jesus taught in Luke 17:3-4

3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. 4 And if he trespasses against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.

Even though as an atheist I have a reprobate mind and cannot understand the things of God, I have found the part about forgiving seven times in a day interesting and perplexing. Is it a figure of speech?
Would someone please provide a scenario in which, you as a Christian, would allow yourself to be violated by a fellow believer, over and over in the same day? 
 

In vs 3, the need to admonish the believer as to what action against you was sinful is noteworthy. The offender is then in the position to make a choice as to whether to repent or not and if they do, then we are to forgive them.

The word "repent" means "to change one's mind or purpose."  

Verse 4 brings different scenarios to my mind, but I'll let the verse speak for itself.

Obviously, in twi, confronting leaders was worthy of condemnation and repentance was not a practice you saw modelled by leaders, yet followers were expected to be unconditionally forgiving.  

 

As I was driving the other day it occurred to me how freeing it would be for a child to be raised as an atheist.

The child would not have to be concerned about which of the hundreds of gods is the correct one to obey.

The child would not have to figure out why he/she was being held responsible for the sin of biting into an apple, by a couple they never knew or met, in an imaginary garden, thousands of years ago?

If he or she happened to see a man hanging on a crucifix, they would not have to be overwhelmed by the thought they somehow caused him to be murdered.

He would not believe that Alluh would provide him 70 virgins if he murdered the infidels.

She would not be forced to wear clothing covering her entire body except for a slit to see through. Nor would she have to be concerned with her family murdering her if they determined she was disobeying god.

The child would not have to be dunked in a river to clear the sin away they supposedly caused to get that guy murdered hanging on the crucifix.

Yes I am being facetious, but only to point out that numerous statements of mine have been twisted to mean something I never intended for them to mean. 
I will exit the thread and allow the conversation of forgiveness to proceed.

Allow me to say this, even though Chockfull has proclaimed to the internet I have no right to express myself because of my non belief in God, thus I am just trolling along on GSC. 

Any @sshat leader who was in TWI and is currently operating an offshoot group, should immediately close up shop until they condemn the actions of VPW.

Furthermore, any dense jackfoot former follower of VPW, especially those who have held the mantle of leadership, must immediately prostrate themselves before “somebody” and beg forgiveness.

And especially, all those disingenous jackfoot trolls, such as myself, must immediatelly surrender their license to operate a PC, to the internet policing commission, until they can demonstrate a clear understanding that there is a loving God.

29 minutes ago, Stayed Too Long said:

Utter BS this: 

I said I had read an article and the person who wrote the article said he had to forgive his wrongdoers so he was able to move on with his life. 
This statement said nothing about God. 

14 hours ago, chockfull said:

Hmmm.  The “utter BS” that OS was referring to pretty much was started by Stayed who held a different position earlier that God did require forgiveness on the part of the wronged.

Now he has flipped the script.

To me that is clear evidence of either a complete change of heart or of the fact that Stayed is deliberately trolling topics he has no belief in.

Utter BS this: 

23 hours ago, cman said:

o brother, where art thou? lol just kidding....

you have answered your own question, you are posting and believing twi teachings

To me, when it comes to teachings concerning a God or some supreme being, VPW’s teachings are as valid as any one elses. In my estimation none of them holds any water. 
If some how from my postings you can pull out of the hat that I believe TWI’s teachings, you should start your own magic show. You are certainly a great illusionist that can only rival Houdini.

9 hours ago, Rocky said:

So, I take it you're asking for clarification?

I apologize if I implied that was something Dr Tyson suggested.

I'm thankful you viewed the video multiple times. 

Not everything I've learned over the 37 years since I left Victor Wierwille's cult could possibly be included in or explained by even the most brilliant American astrophysicist. 

 

I have viewed videos by Dr Tyson in the past but lost track of him over the years. Thank you for sharing this one. He is such a personable old boy and makes astrophysics interesting. 

10 hours ago, OldSkool said:

There is literally no place in scripture that requires anybody to forgive so the person who was wronged can move on in life...thats utter BS.

Glad we agree on that OldSkool. If you heard such nonsense it probably might have been on another forum or post.

We shoudnt harbor bitterness or take vengance into our own hands, but forgiveness is given to the one who comitted the offence(s) after they repent and ask for it. Obviously, we can intercede and ask for forgiveness for someone else the same way Christ did with the malefactor or where Christ spoke of those who crucified him saying forgive them for they know not what they do.

Offshoots, and I mean all of them. Offshoots of the way international have a VESTED interest in requiring victims forgive predator victor paul wierwille,

I didn’t realize the offshoots thought VPW did anything wrong that would to require forgiveness. They believe each is carrying on the same word of God taught by the good doctor.

et al., because how else can they keep people roped in, giving them money so they can have cushy little jobs at the local home church office?

Jesus himself taught:

Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

16 minutes ago, Stayed Too Long said:

I watched the “Why Do We Fear Death,” video 4 or 5 times and did not observe any explanation as to why past cultures believed in different Gods through the ages.
DeGrasse Tyson did say science does not address heaven, hell, or our past ancestors. His dying concern will be laying on his death bed and not having done enough to make man kind a better place. I went away reassured science does not find the existence for any god.

 

4 hours ago, Rocky said:

No, I do not still buy that one. 

However, your post raises different questions. Reasonably so.

I would hope TWIers who still believe could muster the courage and rational reasoning to respond.

As to relying on con-men and hoaxsters to get the job done, it seems to suggest a negative response to you musing about whether "there is a Real God."

Human history suggests many cultures believed in a god or gods. I would ask how and why there's so much variation throughout the millennia.

Neal de Grasse Tyson has suggested answers to such questions. He's a smart and very thoughtful guy (scientist)

 

 

I watched the “Why Do We Fear Death,” video 4 or 5 times and did not observe any explanation as to why past cultures believed in different Gods through the ages.
DeGrasse did say science does not address heaven, hell, or our past ancestors. His dying concern will be laying on his death bed and not having done enough to make man kind a better place. I went away reassured science does not find the existence for any god.

1 hour ago, cman said:

No. Your problems are yours not mine. It's on you not me or anyone else. 

Gottcha. Fair enough.

8 minutes ago, cman said:

The only one to answer your questions is the one lord you you said you don't believe

Hey cman….would it be possible for you to ask the one lord why all the suffering is allowed to go on, and fill me in? Thank you! 

1 hour ago, cman said:

if you thought to really find answers, you would

Quite obviuosly I have been looking for answers and have presented questions on this forum. Most of my questions have been written in the form of sarcasm, expressing my belief there is no god. But, if you have the answers why all the suffering is allowed to go on, please lay them out. Just grab one question and explain it to me.