Stayed Too Long

This is the fear Christians must deal with every thought. Not only must a Christian be aware of physical sins they have performed, but also must be aware their God keeps track of every nasty thought they think.
 

Lennon admitted his inspiration for Imagine was actually taken from poems Yoko Ono had written. He basically plagiarized some of her writings by not giving her credit for her work.
He also stated it was from the Communist Manifesto.

https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/articles/features/the_story_behind_imagine_by_john_lennon-83853

1 hour ago, WordWolf said:

That sounds good.  It's sometimes tricky to know for sure what goes on in insulated communities.  We hear that Amish communities are squeaky-clean and abhor technology.  From what I've heard, they avoid "the grid" but don't mind locally generating their own power and using power tools. Also, some of them are definitely not as squeaky-clean as they are meant to be (primarily during their time to consider the outside world instead.)

If these Hutterites take care of each other as a community, that's incredibly rare and a very nice thing. 

I don't mind IMAGINING people without barriers, but it's endemic to the human condition- people form societies and define them by who is "us" and who is "them."  Without eliminating that (which isn't possible for us), people will come up with things to kill and die for, some will remain greedy and so on.   There are people in society that don't need constant reminders to do the right thing, but most of them DO have the law there to remind them where the lines are in their culture/society.  Statistically few people will continue to do the right thing just because it's the right thing without the law defining the lines (5%, IIRC, 1 in 20.)

I don’t know if the Hutterites are squeaky-clean or even what that means. They definitely use electricity, use farm and ranch modern equipment, drive gasoline engine cars, drink booze, buy items from local stores, sell meat, produce, eggs, chickens to local residents and stores. They allow people to hunt on their property. 
I have no idea what goes on inside the colony. They pay property taxes and income taxes at the corporate level. They do no have an individual income tax. They do not draw unemployment or collect government subsidies such as welfare or snap. 

17 minutes ago, WordWolf said:

"Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for"

"Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world"

I've never been a fan of the song.     As a thought experiment, to "IMAGINE", it's not bad by itself.  When trying to make it happen, it doesn't even work on paper.   All previous attempts have failed drastically, all due to human nature. 

Communism is allegedly based on Karl Marx' ideology- his "philosophy"- and in this context, I consider it no different from any other DOGMA, any religion included.

SUPPOSEDLY, people would agree to work together- but every time someone tries to put these ideas into practice, they've failed miserably.  Part of that is that Karl Marx never articulated HOW to get there and how to MAINTAIN this society, and human nature runs at cross purposes with this.  Allow everyone to work on "the honor system" and there will always be those who try to cheat- who consider themselves above a "fair share".  Two countries have allegedly been large "communist" countries- China and Russia, and both countries CLAIM to be communist but are in reality both OLIGARCHIES, where a handful of people have seized all the money and all the power.

Humans will organize themselves into societies, and those societies will organize(eventually) into countries.  People do that. They also come up with things to kill over, even if it's just "more food" or "the best food" or "the best houses." And that increases as the societies increase- societies where nobody has ANYTHING seem to be the happiest and least jealous.  Add ANY resource into the mix, and the party is over.

Having no possessions has always appealed to the have-nots.  Societies that have allegedly agreed to that have a handful of people at the top who control all the possessions, and pay lip service to the party line.  People who actually have some possessions won't agree so loudly to the "we share everything" concept.   That's been mentioned over and over in different cultures.  In fact, different comedians have outlined why in terms of their own culture.   (My favorite was Paul Rodriguez. "Mexico CAN'T be Communist. I'd like to see a Bolshevik go down to el barrio, and explain to some guy named Little Frog, that now, under Communism, The State now owns his CHEVY.  'Let me get this straight, vato...you're saying ANYONE can drive my turbo?' *opens switchblade* I don't think so. Communist Manifesto this.' ")

 

No greed?  Seriously?  I think there's MORE greed where those claims are made.  There's certainly more hoarding and shortages- caused by greed and hoarding at the top.  Sharing all the world?   The first countries that really dismiss their military over that will probably be the first countries annexed overnight by greedier neighbors who don't want to "share."  

Hey-  in the Jesus People days, there were people who tried this.  They had to stop.  Many of the hippies were cooperative, but there's always someone who will ruin something nice for everyone.  Someone who doesn't want to work and wants a place to stay, free food, etc.  That was the undoing of some noble, well-intentioned home experiments.   For that matter, those welcoming people welcomed vpw, and that was an even bigger disaster. 

One doesn't have to look for RELIGIOUS reasons for people to be selfish, greedy, blood-thirsty, self-centered.... these are endemic to the human condition.  Josef Stalin wiped out his own farmers to steal their food.  The USSR had some amazing bloody pogroms. (For that matter, you don't have to look back in history all the way to Stalin, there's more recent examples

As a science fiction fan, I can IMAGINE magickal places and wonders of super-technology.  I can IMAGINE societies where this works. But these imaginings don't ring true, and even the fiction I read doesn't try to convince me of them.

I agree with you.
Some of the only groups that have successfully lived the lyrics are religious ones.  Around my area of the country there are Hutterites who live a communist lifestyle. They all live in the same cummunity, all have a job to perform, and all well taken care of physically. 
The Hutterites grow their own vegetable and fruit, and raise their own meat. They make money selling their products to the commubnity.

Lennon  believes what he is singing about and is attempting to get listeners to, at least, imagine what it would be like if they lived the lyrics.

One of the lyrics is, “Image no possessions. It’s easy if you try.”

John certainly did not live up to this standard, as  he had wealth and justified being wealthy. 
https://www.cheatsheet.com/entertainment/john-lennon-felt-guilty-having-money.html/
 

My wife and I attended a tribute band to the Beatles called thefabfour.com.  One of the songs performed was John Lennon’s “Imagine.” The opening verse is:

Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people living for today

So many people love this song, including Christian friends of mine. Most likes it because it is about loving one another, no more killings, no more hunger, and it is a soothing song. 
However, when I mention that all this will happen when we no longer believe in God, they just shrug their shoulders, and let it go. No matter the lyrics, they just like the song. 
It just makes me chuckle.

1 hour ago, chockfull said:

I have no concerns to need to start a new thread.  I was answering a direct question.  Or maybe a rhetorical one depending on how it was presented 100%.  If that triggers you then maybe you should ask yourself why.

To to all posters.
 

This is the atheist forum and this particular thread is about raising children as atheists. Please do not go 

3 hours ago, chockfull said:

Because it would be a real response that could have personal insight in the subject matter.  The more authentic you are the more you are believable.  

Why I would care is that as an introvert I desire real connection and fake or inauthentic connection is irritating to me.

You are going with your comments. Please start a thread dealing with your concerns.

7 hours ago, Nathan_Jr said:

Right. Not in exactly the same way. But Hellenized Jews and pagans would have recognized the implications and connections. Jesus did it better, so the story goes, effectively superseding Dionysus.

https://mythologymatters.wordpress.com/2020/02/24/the-mythology-of-wine-vii-the-wine-miracles-of-dionysus-and-jesus-compared/
 

From my point of view, as an athiest, all the mythical gods, and Alluh, Elohim, etc….., the names of which are endless, are a myth. They never existed, they do not exist now, and they will not exist in the future. 
Once you accept the fact that once you die, and you will go to the grave and decay like any other life on earth, you no longer have to be concerned about gaining or loosing rewards from an angry or loving God. Whew!!! Thank God. Lol. 

28 minutes ago, Nathan_Jr said:

Dionysus did it first.

I did a search on Dionydus, who was also known as Bacchus, and could not find any reference to him turning water into wine. Please provide a link. 
 

Children eventually come to the realization that it is impossible for Santa Clause to deliver presents to all the good boys and girls around the world in one night.

Children also realize after a few years, that it is impossible for a rabbit to color and deliver millions of hard boiled eggs to parks and yards around the globe, every Easter morning.

These same children also arrive at the conclusion, that the tooth fairy did not actually replace a rotting tooth, places under their pillow,  with a few dollars.

However, these same children, who have read in a book that a man made the waters of a sea part, continue to believe it, after no concrete evidence exists to prove it.

And, when the sea parted a bunch of nice people marched across it. Once all the good folks reached the other side of the ocean, God made the waters once again to come together, thus killing all the bad guys chasing  them.

Then once all the good people gathered together on the other side of the sea, this same God, made them wonder about the desert for 40 years becuase they ....ed Him off. Of course, He did however, miraculously supply them with food for their entire 40 years of wondering. God also made them invisible to their enemies for the entire 40 years. 

And when this loving God was about to deliver them from the desert after 40 years, He once again was ....ed off because the leader did something God did not like, so the leader had to die before allowing all the good people to enter the promised land. 
 

Also, who can find someone that will change water into the finest wine? Or turn bread into fishes to feed thousands on a hillside? Or pray for a lame person and make him walk? I did a Google search for people cured of aids through prayer, but came up empty. Why has God not acted to free people of aids? People will say He has through medicine, but why did He wait so long and allow thousands to suffer and die from this hideous disease?

The Myth of life is Genesis to Revelations is a Myth. 

 

Atheists make better parents because they do not have their children do things out of fear of being punished by a god. Only do things because it is the right thing to do.

https://www.indy100.com/news/atheists-make-better-parents-parenting-study-research-7627036

36 minutes ago, Rocky said:

I realize this is but I ask Stayed Too Long's indulgence.

More than a decade ago, I faced a hurricane of a storm in my life. My GSC posts at that time reflected the storm I was then immersed in.

I came out of the storm not the same person. I'm thankful for having gone through the storm and survived and grown as a person. 

The storm I was facing in life was not seeing all the promises of God in my life and those around me come true. I had no choice but to conclude all the promises I was taught from childhood to adulthood were fraudulent, and had to reject them. If you reject God all that is left is to be an atheist. Becoming an atheist was a very good choice for me.

Religious children are meaner than their secular counterparts, study finds

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/06/religious-children-less-altruistic-secular-kids-study

The study found religious children, especially older ones, are meaner than their seculure counterparts.
 

2 hours ago, Rocky said:

From Washington Post, today October 3, 2023: (all readers are able to read the rest of this WaPo essay for no charge because I subscribe by clicking the link)

I like to say that my kids made me an atheist. But really what they did was make me honest.

I was raised Jewish — with Sabbath prayers and religious school, a bat mitzvah and a Jewish wedding. But I don’t remember ever truly believing that God was out there listening to me sing songs of praise.

I thought of God as a human invention: a character, a concept, a carry-over from an ancient time.

I thought of him as a fiction.

Today I realize that means I’m an atheist. It’s not complicated. My (non)belief derives naturally from a few basic observations:

1. The Greek myths are obviously stories. The Norse myths are obviously stories. L. Ron Hubbard obviously made that stuff up. Extrapolate.
2. The holy books underpinning some of the bigger theistic religions are riddled with “facts” now disproved by science and “morality” now disavowed by modern adherents. Extrapolate.
3. Life is confusing and death is scary. Naturally, humans want to believe that someone capable is in charge and that we continue to live after we die. But wanting doesn’t make it so.
4. Child rape. War. Etc.

And yet, when I was younger, I would never have called myself an atheist — not on a survey, not to my family, not even to myself.

 

When I was a young man raised in the Catholic Church I so much wanted to please God. But the biggest thing the church taught me was condemnation. When ever I would have a sinful thought it would send me into a tail spin of condemnation, and as a young guy you can imagine the sinful thoughts I was having minute by minute, hour by hour, etc. I would pray and pray begging God to cleanse my mind. I even sheepishly went to my priest asking him what to do. He didn’t want to talk about sex, but said he would leave some church literature hidden  inside the confessional, for me to study. The promised readings never showed up. This really made be feel giulty that mymoriest forgot about me. 
So after high school graduation I dropped out of the church and never went back. 
Staying away from the church really left a hole in me spiritually for years,  and felt I was  hell bound, until one day a guy sat next to me in a cafe and started witnessing to me. He said if you believe Romans 10:9&10, you will go to heaven come hell or high water. Also God can work miracle through us….all we have to do is believe. I signed up for the PFAL class immediately and hurried through all the other classes so I could operate signs, miracle, and wonders. Even went WOW, WOW Ii, and signed up for the Way Corp. 

But along the way I didn’t see any signs, miracles, and wonders happening. Didn’t even see someone get over a cold by having hands laid on them. This really got started me doubting what TWI was all about and seriously wanting to leave. But by then they had their hooks in me saying if I leave all my rewards will be lost. Blah, blah, blah, you know the rest.

Thr reason I finally got out was gecause they marked and avoided me. 
So stumbling about again with God going to make me a grease spot by midnight, I felt terrible. Finding GSC was a life saver and got me at least on an even keel. 
Then seeing all the trouble my life had been in because of God, I began thinking what good had he done for me. Slowing I began reading articles about people who were happy not believing in God.
I have never been happier and more content since becoming an atheist.

My daughter was born and raised in TWI, and is currently a happy Catholic. But if I were raising her today I would steer her away from any religion or God.

5 hours ago, chockfull said:

Hey anybody that technically performs the act of gaslighting is gaslighting.  It sounds like you were triggered by hearing the definition of it.

What about the definition of gaslighting indicates I was triggered to control your life? Do you believe I have you under my control? Since posting on this thread have you lost the ability to think for your self. Do you question every thought you have? Do I have complete psychological control over you? If I do have control of your mind, I will cast the controlling spirit out of you in the powerful name of Jesus Christ.
There, now your mind should be free, and you are able to once again think your own thoughts. Praise God and let’s all speak in tongues and be slain in the spirit. 

I apologized for not finding the word “started.”
It seems you are grasping for straws. I have addressed your issues on your posts on this thread and you have not acknowleged them or asked for further clarification. My responses don’t seem to be of much interest to you.

Maybe you wanna blame your good buddy Merriam Webster.

What do I want to blame Merriam Webster for?
I looked up the word atheist and MW defined the word as people who do not believe in God. This definition would surely include any group of judgmentalist Christians whom you referenced.  I have acknowleged your example is an example of an atheist. What more can I do to assure you I completely believe fundamentals Christians believe atheists do not believe in God?

3 hours ago, penworks said:

I keep those messages confidential. But one thing I can tell you without naming names is one person asked whether I knew if their mother was one of VPW's "girls." I did and I told that person the truth, which they said they already suspected from comments they'd heard directly from their mother, who was a Corps grad. I also know she solicited other women for VPW. 

How would you like to hear that about your mother?

Certainly it would be difficult to accept and process. It is hard for children to image anything sexual about their parents.

3 hours ago, Stayed Too Long said:

I recall VPW saying he personally knew Billy Graham and Oral Roberts, and he wanted to get together with them to move the word over the world. VPW’s vision was for Graham to get peole born again, Robert’s to heal them, and Wierwille would teach them the word. Obviously they did not agree with him, or he made it all up.

 

2 hours ago, chockfull said:

Yeah.  You don’t read apparently which adds to the issues.

Look back at your first response to me 3 posts up and tell me one more time how it’s my imagination you used the word “started” .  It’s real hard to miss it’s the 9th word of your post.

SORRY, I overlooked it. My apologize.

Just to point out - when something real occurs but you deny it and accuse it being in someone’s imagination, that practice is called “gaslighting”

Let me assure you I am in no way attemting to gaslight you. You are also convinced Rocky is gaslighting you. Anyone else? 

I recall VPW saying he personally knew Billy Graham and Oral Roberts, and he wanted to get together with them to move the word over the world. VPW’s vision was for Graham to get peole born again, Robert’s to heal them, and Wierwille would teach them the word.

Since being so totally taken in and deceived by VPW and TWI I now find myself being very critical of things that people say. When an ad appears on TV my immediate reaction is what is the hook they are using to reel me in.
Especially when someone quotes something they heard via social media, i immediately want to know who is their source? So many on social media are only interested in their 15 minutes of fame and will say about anything.

Always in the back of my mind is the realization I once was tricked by a con man and I do not want to allow this to happen again.

These articles are very helpful to ensure I can make an informed decision about what I am listening  to.

1 hour ago, chockfull said:

No you were not “merely pointing out” I’m not doing this again.  
Apparently we must take your postings as absolute with no possible ways to add, question, or clarify them?

I gave a reason for my personal past decision regarding kids.

I respect your personal decisions regarding kids and absolutely support you.

You didn’t like that I said atheism is a label used to target by fundamentalist Christians.

I said atheism was a term used by society, which would include fumdamentalist Christians.

 Is that statement untrue?

It is 100% true. You have my vote.

  No it is 100 percent true.

Absolutely!

Then you twisted my statement and contradicted it by citing a dictionary and saying oooh no it wasn’t “started” by fundamentalist Christians.

I reread all of my posts and could not find anwhere using the word “started,” was used. This is your imagination.

I never said “started”.  
See above statement

I am going to stop posting personal details because God doesn’t want me casting pearls before swine.

You are posting in the atheist section so you can expect there to be at least one swine present. 

You in the analogy are a jack@$$ that is represented by the swine comparison just to completely clarify.

In another recent post you apologized for calling me names. 

I’m out.

Yep, this is STL: Keep your pearls well hidden when you see a post from a raging atheist!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

3 hours ago, chockfull said:

Sweet picking at my personal sharing.  Who the f cares what Merriam-Webster says.

Why do you believe I am sweet picking at your personal sharing? I merely pointed out the definition was more widely used other that by fundamentals Christians.

So I’m wrong I’m not worrying about them being an atheist according to a dictionary?

What about you? So you have kids?  Are you married?  What is your skin in the game in all this beyond “it occurred to me while driving”
…”while driving,” is a great time to think about things. One of the thoughts I had is what initiated the subject of this thread.

Does it matter what my “skin in the game,” is? What difference does it make if my family is like The Brady Bunch or Leave it to Beaver’s family? Whether I am divorced a half a dozen times, or happily married for over 50 years? If I have two kids in the penitentiary and three others barely scraping  by? 

If you wanna raise kids via dictionaries then try it and tell me how it goes.

We are only discussing the the term atheist and how it was defined, not me running to the library and finding the desktop dictionary everytime I have a question about raising my family. 
You said atheist was a “classification label used by fundamentalist Christians.” I merely pointed out it was a term used much morely widely by society. 
I am not trying to attack or belittle you in any way, just adding to the conversation.

Thats the last personal info sharing I’m giving on this thread.  And mostly why I don’t share personal things much here as there’s always that one person.

If you believe your personal sharings should not be subject to discussion by others, by all means you have made the right decision to no longer post them.

 

1 hour ago, chockfull said:

My kids have seen the impact of a fundamentalist Christian cult on our lives and have experienced some of that as children.  

They are very aware of the abuse involved with Way leadership and their treatment of us as ministers.

They will never go to anything related to Wierwille or the Way.  That is 100 percent due to the actions of current and former leadership and their putrid example of Christianity.  

They are grown and out of the house and exploring on their own growing and developing their own ideas and spiritual views and priorities.  

I don’t worry about them being an “atheist” as that is a classification label used by judgmental fundamentalist Christians.

The definition  of an atheist is not one started by fundamentalist Christians. Merriam Webster defines an atheist as:
 

1. a person who does not believe in the existence of a supreme being or beings.

2. a person who believes that there is no supreme being or beings.

They are wonderful caring contributing members of society that are balanced and help others.  One organized at their work a group making blankets for the homeless, which will help the homeless infinitely more than “the class” would.  

I’m sure many would have questions about them but I don’t want to write a lot of personal details.  They deserve the privacy of enjoying their lives without more cult backlash.  That is another reason why I’m not writing a memoir. 

I’m sure they will probably at some point get witnessed to or sent a postcard.  They can respond with a puzzling look and a “no thank you”.  Much better than an entangled life of lies and bondage.

Kids growing up in a cult have a special Dante’s Inferno they endure.  Mine have.  I need their adult lives to be free from that and not impacted by my decisions and goals.  They certainly don’t need impact from any personal moglet ascension priorities which I don’t have unlike 98% of my former friends in the Way Corpse.