Stayed Too Long

8 minutes ago, So_crates said:

I think many of us here have done a brilliant job of moving on with our lives. We've succeed not because of, but in spite of the Way.

We've moved on, we're in it won't happen again mode.

Methinks thou protests too much. What haven't you forgiven and is stopping you from moving on with your life?

I have not questioned if you have forgiven anyone. If you have, or haven’t, that is fine with me. Move on with your life, or don’t move on with your life, that is completely up to you. 
I merely stated that a person had written in an article, and said they had to forgive their wrong doer before they could move on with their life. 
If that might help anyone in a similar situation, then wonderful. If the advise is not applicable to anyone in a similar situation, that is wonderful.

On 9/5/2023 at 9:14 PM, chockfull said:

I can forgive Stayed.  Well within my capabilities.  Has he asked for forgiveness?  Sounds to me more like a lecture hit and run.  We get quite a lot of those on this site actually.  Lecture hit and runs.  Is he of a mentally impaired or unaware state where he “knows not what he does”?  
Let me make this clear….I have not asked for your forgiveness because I have done nothing to seek your forgivemess. “A lecture hit and run?” I have never avoided any responses directed at me. Fire away! 
Apparently, because I do not agree with you and your God, I might be mentally impaired or in an unaware state? Does that follow anyone who doesn’t fall in line with your belief’s might be mentally impaired also?

LCM too.  Knew him personally.  He has never asked for my forgiveness for anything.  Right now he is teaching new interpretations of books of the Bible to an imaginary internet audience and none of those teachings seem to carry any awareness of being wrong or changing.  His own daughter has posted on here concerned about his ongoing influence.

I mean sure I’ve got my version of Jesus blanket forgiveness for those who are unaware of their evil impact.  
Care to share your version of Jesus’ blanket forgiveness? Are you sure it is a right dividing of the word of truth?

Do these two examples fit the bill?

Where does the verse in Romans about not taking vengeance because vengeance is the Lords fit in?  If the Lord always forgave everyone and required everyone else to then what would He have to take vengeance on?

This whole topic and the wrong dividing of scripture around it by the cult TWI has kept more people in bondage and whitewashed more evil by leaders than any other I know.

Quiet a statement! 
 

On 9/5/2023 at 5:29 PM, chockfull said:

You mean because I actually read the verses related to the topic as opposed to just buying your one-line mandate about forgiveness?  And ask detailed questions?

Also, you’re an @sshat who comes on a forum and tells victims what they need to be doing according to you as opposed to what they are currently doing.  That is called victim blaming you dense jackfoot.  You’re blaming them for their current state because according to you His Highness they haven’t forgiven their abuser so they aren’t delivered.

The fact that you don’t care what God thinks by your own mouth means you are a disingenuous jackfoot troll for baiting all of us in this conversation.

 

 

An @sshat, dense jackfoot, & disingenuous jackfoot troll, eh? 
No where has “His Highness” attempted to victim blame. I merely said that another person had said they had to forgive their wrong doers before they were able to move on with their life. If you don’t deem it necessary to forgive those who have wronged you, I have no qualm with that. 
Just because I don’t care what god thinks doesn’t mean I can’t read what he has said and put it in print. 

On 9/5/2023 at 7:19 AM, So_crates said:

Why would someone come onto a place where Way victims congregate and start talking about forgiving?

In a previous post I wrote how other people had to forgive their wrong doers, and only then could they move on with their lives. That is why I started talking about forgiveness.

Do you think we haven't forgiven all the evil The Way brought?

Some may have and some may have not. If they have forgiven, according to the article I quoted, they have a better chance of moving on with their lives.

There's forgiving, then there's warning others. If someone mugged me in certain place I could forgive the mugger. However, I would also warn other to stay away from the place were the mugging occurred.

On 9/5/2023 at 6:22 AM, chockfull said:

This is at best a partial statement that conveys none of the details surrounding the related verses.

Jesus 70x7 statement is in the context of the person committing the wrong asking for forgiveness, evidencing remorse, but falling short.  

Wrongly dividing scripture and reaching a conclusion where a victim should be blamed but a perpetrator should be excused is about the worst example of Christianity I can think of.  It shows worse than any other religion I can think of who would hold perpetrators accountable.

 

Maybe you can get me on the right track and rightly divide scripture for me about forgiveness, and show me how I have wrongly divided the word of truth? 

2 hours ago, So_crates said:

We were told we would manifest the power of God. How many do you know really did? How many healing and miricles are you aware that news of such didn't come from a friend of a friend (a ministry urban legend) ?

You see, the truth of the matter is that we were never meant to manifest the power of God,  to become successful. Because if we ever did manifest that power we would become to Independent and, in Saint Vic's mind, might no longer need him. So it was to his benefit to keep us in a cycle of failure which would keep us dependent on the ministry.

You would think God would want you to succeed and be a shining example of his love. Yet, the ministry was based on you failing.

Since breaking away from TWI and VPW’s control to keep you in a cycle of failure,  have you begun to manifest the power of God, bringing about healings and miracles?

5 hours ago, cman said:

yeah stl, that's the kind of crap taught, not only by the way but many others

even the "fall of man" teachings was something that came out of the Nicene council

so much bs to unload to really see, it's gotta be god to show us truth

Hi cman

Sorry, I am missing the drift of your post. Are you saying my post is crap? And that what was declared in the Nicene Council about the “fall of man” teachings, was also bs? And some how God who will eventually show us the truth? Please elaborate. Thank you.

Anyone who believes in, and especially one who continues to believe in, a God, after being exposed to the god’s cruel actions and requirements, is difficult to understand. 
Imagine, if at all possible, a human father who starts his family, and says all will be wonderful until they commit one specific wrong. And once they do the wrong, the father will no longer communicate with them. He will leave them on their own for thousands of years, then later, he will send a brother to be tortured and crucified, and for some crazy reason, then this sick father will once again be happy, and will talk with his children again.
Of course this father will not accept responsibility for his nutty actions, but will blame it on someone he calls the devil, who he created in the first place. Supposedly the devil was like the father’s children, and was told he would be okay unless he sinned against the father. He also sinned against the father and was thrown out too. Now, the father has turned the devil loose, and the father  has given him tremendous power to trick the fathers other children to make them sin. Then, deja vu, once again, the father will refuse to communicate with his kids until they beg him for forgiveness. If they die without getting his forgiveness, the child will be cut off from the father forever, and suffer eternally, with the devil. The devil and the sinning children are failed creations of the father. 
This father is certainly not someone I have used as any type example to raise my children. If I did any of the acts of this cruel father, I would be in prison for the rest of my life,  if not executed.

On 9/15/2023 at 7:56 AM, Mike said:

It is my understanding that the country of Belize has no copyright treaty with the USA. 

Belize does respect the copyright laws of other countries.

https://www.belipo.bz/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/Copyright-Orders.pdf

With Aaron Rodgers’ out for the entire season because of an injury to his Achilles Tendon, the debate over artificial turf vrs natural grass is coming up again.

https://www.hss.edu/conditions_artificial-turf-sports-injury-prevention.asp

Hi Alex

Feel free to search the many subjects about The Way International that have been posted at GSC over the past 20 plus years. I am sure you will find answers to a number of your concerns, and if not, please begin your own posts. Others here can probably fill in the blanks for you.

WELCOME!

The loss goes to show Mahomes can’t win the game by himself. He can turn the magic on, but he still needs receivers who can catch the ball. Kadarius Toney dropped the ball three times with one resulting in a touchdown for Detroit. Skyy Moore and Jerick McKinnon also dropped the ball once. Starting Wide receiver Travis Kelce was also out with an injury. 
The Chiefs beat themselves.

On 9/8/2023 at 5:45 AM, penworks said:

LCM letter 1990.pdf 413.28 kB · 19 downloads

Attached is an old Way document: A form letter from Craig Martindale in 1990 to all Way Corps. Weirdly, I was already OUT. Escaped HQ in 1987. He was well aware of that and of my unmendable break from TWI!

But of course we know these letters were sent out to everyone on the Corps list without consideration for details like whether or not they'd repudiated TWI. LOL.

 

Ironic LCM casts aspersions on those who float around on debris, but held so very proudly that he was a part of the remnent of those left in TWI. LOL. Now he is one of those whom are floating around on the debris with his online teachings. Or does he still see himself aboard the luxury liner? 

Glad you are doing ok.

1 hour ago, chockfull said:

You mean because I actually read the verses related to the topic as opposed to just buying your one-line mandate about forgiveness?  And ask detailed questions?

Also, you’re an @sshat who comes on a forum and tells victims what they need to be doing according to you as opposed to what they are currently doing.  That is called victim blaming you dense jackfoot.  You’re blaming them for their current state because according to you His Highness they haven’t forgiven their abuser so they aren’t delivered.

The fact that you don’t care what God thinks by your own mouth means you are a disingenuous jackfoot troll for baiting all of us in this conversation.

My beliefs, or unbeliefs, in God have never been hidden by me. There are ample posts on the atheist thread by me questioning God. That makes you an @sshat?? and jackfoot troll?? for assuming anything other than what I have posted? How do you think Rocky knew to question me about my prior posts?  I am not interested in baiting anyone; you seem to be the only one not aware of what I have posted in the past.

When you recopied this post your comment was  you didn’t care to rehash it. It is hard for me to understand exactly what that means to you?  

This is my final post on this thread. 

 

 

1 hour ago, Rocky said:

I seem to recall you not being so concerned with what God requires of people. Am I wrong? If so, what changed?

You are correct about me not being concerned about what God thinks, and  nothing has changed, but I can throw my two cents worth in. In this situation, forgiving those who have done you wrong, I agree. In my own personal life, forgiving others has been necessary, and freed my mind from holding grudges. 

A clock that doesn’t work is accurate twice a day. The bible addresses many subjects, so it is bound to be correct once in a while.

Thankfully we have Chockfull who can determine when I get things wrongs. She can tell us when I have wrongly divided the word of gawd, and will point out the worst example of me being a Christian. Amen. 

7 hours ago, chockfull said:

This is at best a partial statement that conveys none of the details surrounding the related verses.

Jesus 70x7 statement is in the context of the person committing the wrong asking for forgiveness, evidencing remorse, but falling short.  

Wrongly dividing scripture and reaching a conclusion where a victim should be blamed but a perpetrator should be excused is about the worst example of Christianity I can think of.  It shows worse than any other religion I can think of who would hold perpetrators accountable.

Wow!! Who do you think you are? First off, I have never blamed, or suggested, the victim was responsible for any wrong done to them. Perhaps you should check out the subject of this thread, one which you began; it is about forgiveness, not blaming the victim. Please don’t go off topic.
Secondly, your declaration of what the worst example of Christianity is, sets yourself up as the authority of how to interpret the bible. You have learned well from, as you put it, the plaffy class, Chockfull. VPW and LCM would be proud you have taken the mantle of rightly dividing  the word of Gawd. 

 

7 hours ago, So_crates said:

Yah, forgiveness.

Everytime my mother would betray me, she would want to be forgiven. "We've got to start over from scratch," she would say. So I would forgive and forget and all she was really doing was setting me up for her to do the same thing all over again.

It sound to me like you want us to forgive and forget.

How  did you come to that conclusion? 

God require us to forgive, he says nothing about us having to forget.

God says we are to be as wise a serpents, which includes not falling into the same trap again.

The ministry sending out time to come home cards feels like deja vu all over again.

The type of forgiveness you want us to have requires trust and trust is earned.

Yes, God requires forgiveness by his followers when they have been wronged.

On 8/30/2023 at 11:15 PM, Rocky said:

Well... thank you, you made an excellent point. 

1) I didn't say they were undeserving of forgiveness. I didn't think I was implying it either.

2) Looking back on the post and comments I made above, I'm wondering how you may have come to conclude, or even infer I was equating either of them to murderers. If you'd be so kind, I would appreciate you expounding about that on this thread.

3) Considering the two decades of people writing about their experiences on GSC, let me clarify my intent as being to criticize the actions each of the two of them took as cult leaders, and criticize the cult structure and conduct related thereto. There's plenty to show and tell about the power dynamics in and of themselves.

4) Again, thank you for reading and watching the videos. 

This was Rocky’s initial response when I posted about forgiving VPW and LCM and there was no concern about going off topic. In 4) Rocky thanked me for reading and watching the video.
Even as chockfull and I have been going back and forth for several days no concern was shown until today. 

1 hour ago, chockfull said:

In the Bible does it say if you confess your sins then God is faithful to forgive your sins?  Or it doesn’t say that in your Bible?

My discussion never centered around God’s forgiveness of sinners. It has always been about the victim forgiving their perpetrator so the victim can move on with their life. I sighted the example of murder victims families forgiving the murder, enabling the families to move forward with their lives.

“Or it doesn’t say that in your Bible?”   Becoming a bit snarky, eh?

If that is true then what is your conclusion on forgiveness?  Is there recognition and / or action required on the part of the sinner or they can just keep on the exact same evil lifestyle and God and everyone else needs to forgive them because you say so?

See above comment.

I read Jesus words of encouragement to his followers who revered and worshipped him as just that - words of encouragement and a figure of speech regarding “greater works”.

It is nice you can call something that makes no sense, or impossible to perform, inspiration and a figure of speech. 

If you believe the “greater works” is literal then maybe you could list out the things you have done in your life that are greater than what Christ did and we can all compare notes.

I don’t claim to have performed anything greater than Jesus performed. I used the greater than Christ example to illustrate He had forgiven his executioners, so we can, at least, forgive VPW, LCM, & TWI for the wrong they have inflicted on us.

Or as you say list out the works you have done that are equal to Christs works since it is so logical.

You are going down rabbit holes. Surely you can sight some instances in your life where you have performed the works Christ did. 

To me scripture is for inspiration.  So yes it is personal.  But the wrong dividing of scripture produces bondage not freedom.  So I take issue with the wrong dividing of scripture that leads people to bondage.  Like PFAL and the law of victim blaming.  Wait that’s law of believing.  
 

To me Wierwille’s interpretation of the bible is as valid and any other religions. Ask yourself,  how using the same bible, hundreds  of Christian interpretations are possible? The RC’s will send you to hell for missing their holy days of obligation or not confessing to a priest. That will certainly  create bondage in your life. Every denomination had their own interpretations from the same book. One of the posters on GSC has even written a new book about the bible, only adding one more interpretation to the mix of hundreds.

Throw in Jews, Muslins, and other religions, using the same bible, the only logical conclusion, to me, is there is no interpretation possible.

 

My heart is so thankful for you. My wife and I went through the adoption process and know it is intense. Congratulations to you both!

8 hours ago, chockfull said:

One interesting point here is research points to a distinction in the audience Jesus was addressing.

The foot soldiers who were carrying out crucifixion orders were among those addressed directly there.

It is arguable that he was extending this to the Pharisee group that were arranging his crucifixion or the local authorities like Herod making the decisions.  Many noted researchers draw the distinction in audience here not just me.  Plenty to learn if you study it.

In your studies of this event, who do you believe may be not included in Jesus’ forgiveness?

There are a lot of things within the realm of possibility.  The whole “greater works” is a schtick of VPW that he hyped up in his class to try and show that mandated glossallalia was greater than what Jesus did on earth.  It also is anti Christ as it puts someone or some ministry in the place of Christ between you and God reconciling people to God.  Which is beyond their authority.  The genuine ministry of reconciliation referred to in scripture reconciles people to God via Christ.  It doesn’t reconcile people with a ministry, a leadership group, a hamster wheel to run on with the benefits going to an organization of men.

Let’s forget about the minstry of reconciliation you refer too, but logically, we should be able to do at least the works Christ performed.  

It doesn’t say “forgive VP, Craig, Rosalie, and current doofuses and come on home”.

Does any scripture you believe is about you, list your name specifically?

God that “greater works” misinterpretation to pump up a man’s ego and exhort him to bondage annoys me.  Jesus was simply encouraging them to carry on on the faith he started because he was soon ascending.

The scripture says we will perform greater works than Christ, so you can be annoyed all you want insisting it is simply encouraging people to carry on their faith. If Jesus only wanted to envourage them, he would have used words encouraging them. 

But noooooooooooooooooo.

We learned in Plaffy that it is Gods Will for people not only to be saved but come to an experiential knowledge of the truth.  And the only way they can do that is …..  wait for it ………………………………….

more Plaffy!

See it is a a self solving problem!

Now all that’s left is for the grifters to go shopping!

 

2 hours ago, chockfull said:

You had a whole graphic fictional incident that sounded like a gang kidnapping.

Then you drew a parallel to Jesus forgiving his murderers.

And hyped up greater works than Christ like the PFAL class.  But these greater works according to you are measured by how immediately we forgave Craig or VP.

I have no idea if VP or Craig ever asked for my forgiveness.  I’m thinking no.  

It does seem like you are getting to your point though - “no prison sentence would be appropriate” - yes it was very difficult to get anything on Warren Jeffs despite overt illegal acts for decades.  But Craig induced a suicide by his adultery and VP drugged and raped young women on his bus with assistance from Geer.  And exposed himself to a woman who may have been underage at the time from a published book account.  

But hey no punishment would be appropriate, right chief?

Chief? 
My INITIAL point was not “no prison sentence would be appropriate.” It was that some people need to forgive their wrong doers to move on in lives. Then I pointed out Jesus did exactly that as he was being executed by crucifiction. Then presented a possible present day scenario of someone being executed and wondered if they could forgive their executione’s as Jesus did? If Jesus forgave then it probably would be a good idea for his followers to forgive. 
As far as prosecuting LCM or VPW goes,  VPW is dead, and if there is evidence LCM broke the law, bring it to a  a prosecuter. Someone killing themselves because of LCM’s actions is terrible, but, I don’t believe, a crime. 

12 hours ago, chockfull said:

Whenever the topic of cults and the evil actions of founders and top leaders come up, there is always this argument present.

I call this the “whitewash argument”.  It masks as forgiveness, but the unintended extended consequence is that it excuses the evil behavior of the leaders and hides it due to people being imperfect.

Whitewash argument? You have taken it upon yourself to read into something I never said or implied. I provided the example of your lord and savior, Jesus Christ, forgiving those who had tortured and crucified him. Then wrote out a possible scenario of a Christian being murdered, and before they died, forgaving their murderer.  
I expected someone who is a Christian to say they felt the mrdered person was correct to forgive their rapist and murderer. But, the white elephant in the room, has been ignored by all. In stead you come up with a whitewash argument.

I was duped as much as anyone in TWI, being a part of it for over 20 years, but knew I should have left years before I was M & A. Why didn’t I leave? Because I didn’t have a support system outside of TWI and didn’t want to lose my rewards. 

This is the exact lie that all of the current top leaders in TWI tell themselves every day.  “Well VP and Craig weren’t perfect, or Rosalie or the current clowns.  I’m not perfect either.  It’s the best thing we’ve got in an imperfect world.”

Who has put forth this argument? I never said anything mounting to, “It’s the best thing we’ve got in an imperfect world.”  

Saying that Craig and Rosalie for that matter should be serving a prison sentence rather than lavishing in their current situations has nothing to do with my emotional recovery from the cult they lead or did lead.

LCM & TWI have to some degree been held responsible; Craig was kicked out and TWI has been sued in court. Apparently neither has committed any criminal activity so no prison sentence is appropriate.

No I’m not immersing my head in the evil and making my whole life about revenge but that doesn’t discount the evil that happened and will continue to happen if people don’t wake up to the reality and stop accepting people lying to you.

I am long past forgiving people for their personal actions related to my life.  It is really funny though how whenever I call out the truth of something it always wraps back around to some judging me for being “unforgiving”.

Fool me once shame on you.  Fool me twice shame on me.