Stayed Too Long

1 hour ago, Rocky said:

Is that all?

Each of your points seems to be about what they wouldn't have to do. What WOULD they believe about life and creation?

How do you envision answering the child's big questions?

You posed an intriguing thought experiment.

From birth I would reinforce with my child he or she should make the world a better place.
At work, I once had an acquaintance who was an atheist and I was a Wayfer. Of course, I felt he was a complete counterfeit using the devil to mimic God’s good works. He was doing goodworks but not for the glory of God. Especially, why should I be concerned about helping anyone other than active believers in the household of God?
He explained that everyday he walked about the earth looking to do good. That might include helping a person, working with a group that he felt was important, reading a book, doing a good job at work, or visiting with friends. A person’s religious belief did not enter into his reason for doing anything. 
I doubt if he was concerned about acquiring rewards, or losing rewards, by impressing or disappointing a god. 
 

On 10/1/2023 at 10:18 AM, chockfull said:

Maybe you should own the book at least if you are illustrating it as something that is pertinent to the topic.

Have you read it or is it just a recommendation on Good Reads from someone?

I guess we are to assume every illustration you have taken from a book, is sitting on the shelf in your library, or an ebook you have read?

On 10/1/2023 at 10:41 AM, chockfull said:

I don’t view atheists as having reprobate minds.  I think I called you some names though over the hypocrisy of purporting to speak for what God wants while not believing in Him.

God does view me as having a reprobate mind….oh well! God doesn’t have anything good to say about me.

I was over the line calling you names.  I apologize.

Thank you and apology accepted

The scenario I can think of regarding the 70 x 7 answer I can make a parallel to my dogs behavior.  I have a hound pup whose nose gets him in trouble and I have to get after him 70 times a day easily.  But I can’t get bitter towards him because he’s a pain.  He’s a sweet pup.  Sometimes I get exhausted dealing with him so he goes in his crate and wife and I get a break.

Thats probably a stupid example but it’s the working one I have.

 

22 minutes ago, Charity said:

Referencing back to my previous posts on forgiveness, here is what Jesus taught in Luke 17:3-4

3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. 4 And if he trespasses against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.

Even though as an atheist I have a reprobate mind and cannot understand the things of God, I have found the part about forgiving seven times in a day interesting and perplexing. Is it a figure of speech?
Would someone please provide a scenario in which, you as a Christian, would allow yourself to be violated by a fellow believer, over and over in the same day? 
 

In vs 3, the need to admonish the believer as to what action against you was sinful is noteworthy. The offender is then in the position to make a choice as to whether to repent or not and if they do, then we are to forgive them.

The word "repent" means "to change one's mind or purpose."  

Verse 4 brings different scenarios to my mind, but I'll let the verse speak for itself.

Obviously, in twi, confronting leaders was worthy of condemnation and repentance was not a practice you saw modelled by leaders, yet followers were expected to be unconditionally forgiving.  

 

As I was driving the other day it occurred to me how freeing it would be for a child to be raised as an atheist.

The child would not have to be concerned about which of the hundreds of gods is the correct one to obey.

The child would not have to figure out why he/she was being held responsible for the sin of biting into an apple, by a couple they never knew or met, in an imaginary garden, thousands of years ago?

If he or she happened to see a man hanging on a crucifix, they would not have to be overwhelmed by the thought they somehow caused him to be murdered.

He would not believe that Alluh would provide him 70 virgins if he murdered the infidels.

She would not be forced to wear clothing covering her entire body except for a slit to see through. Nor would she have to be concerned with her family murdering her if they determined she was disobeying god.

The child would not have to be dunked in a river to clear the sin away they supposedly caused to get that guy murdered hanging on the crucifix.

Yes I am being facetious, but only to point out that numerous statements of mine have been twisted to mean something I never intended for them to mean. 
I will exit the thread and allow the conversation of forgiveness to proceed.

Allow me to say this, even though Chockfull has proclaimed to the internet I have no right to express myself because of my non belief in God, thus I am just trolling along on GSC. 

Any @sshat leader who was in TWI and is currently operating an offshoot group, should immediately close up shop until they condemn the actions of VPW.

Furthermore, any dense jackfoot former follower of VPW, especially those who have held the mantle of leadership, must immediately prostrate themselves before “somebody” and beg forgiveness.

And especially, all those disingenous jackfoot trolls, such as myself, must immediatelly surrender their license to operate a PC, to the internet policing commission, until they can demonstrate a clear understanding that there is a loving God.

29 minutes ago, Stayed Too Long said:

Utter BS this: 

I said I had read an article and the person who wrote the article said he had to forgive his wrongdoers so he was able to move on with his life. 
This statement said nothing about God. 

14 hours ago, chockfull said:

Hmmm.  The “utter BS” that OS was referring to pretty much was started by Stayed who held a different position earlier that God did require forgiveness on the part of the wronged.

Now he has flipped the script.

To me that is clear evidence of either a complete change of heart or of the fact that Stayed is deliberately trolling topics he has no belief in.

Utter BS this: 

23 hours ago, cman said:

o brother, where art thou? lol just kidding....

you have answered your own question, you are posting and believing twi teachings

To me, when it comes to teachings concerning a God or some supreme being, VPW’s teachings are as valid as any one elses. In my estimation none of them holds any water. 
If some how from my postings you can pull out of the hat that I believe TWI’s teachings, you should start your own magic show. You are certainly a great illusionist that can only rival Houdini.

9 hours ago, Rocky said:

So, I take it you're asking for clarification?

I apologize if I implied that was something Dr Tyson suggested.

I'm thankful you viewed the video multiple times. 

Not everything I've learned over the 37 years since I left Victor Wierwille's cult could possibly be included in or explained by even the most brilliant American astrophysicist. 

 

I have viewed videos by Dr Tyson in the past but lost track of him over the years. Thank you for sharing this one. He is such a personable old boy and makes astrophysics interesting. 

10 hours ago, OldSkool said:

There is literally no place in scripture that requires anybody to forgive so the person who was wronged can move on in life...thats utter BS.

Glad we agree on that OldSkool. If you heard such nonsense it probably might have been on another forum or post.

We shoudnt harbor bitterness or take vengance into our own hands, but forgiveness is given to the one who comitted the offence(s) after they repent and ask for it. Obviously, we can intercede and ask for forgiveness for someone else the same way Christ did with the malefactor or where Christ spoke of those who crucified him saying forgive them for they know not what they do.

Offshoots, and I mean all of them. Offshoots of the way international have a VESTED interest in requiring victims forgive predator victor paul wierwille,

I didn’t realize the offshoots thought VPW did anything wrong that would to require forgiveness. They believe each is carrying on the same word of God taught by the good doctor.

et al., because how else can they keep people roped in, giving them money so they can have cushy little jobs at the local home church office?

Jesus himself taught:

Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

16 minutes ago, Stayed Too Long said:

I watched the “Why Do We Fear Death,” video 4 or 5 times and did not observe any explanation as to why past cultures believed in different Gods through the ages.
DeGrasse Tyson did say science does not address heaven, hell, or our past ancestors. His dying concern will be laying on his death bed and not having done enough to make man kind a better place. I went away reassured science does not find the existence for any god.

 

4 hours ago, Rocky said:

No, I do not still buy that one. 

However, your post raises different questions. Reasonably so.

I would hope TWIers who still believe could muster the courage and rational reasoning to respond.

As to relying on con-men and hoaxsters to get the job done, it seems to suggest a negative response to you musing about whether "there is a Real God."

Human history suggests many cultures believed in a god or gods. I would ask how and why there's so much variation throughout the millennia.

Neal de Grasse Tyson has suggested answers to such questions. He's a smart and very thoughtful guy (scientist)

 

 

I watched the “Why Do We Fear Death,” video 4 or 5 times and did not observe any explanation as to why past cultures believed in different Gods through the ages.
DeGrasse did say science does not address heaven, hell, or our past ancestors. His dying concern will be laying on his death bed and not having done enough to make man kind a better place. I went away reassured science does not find the existence for any god.

1 hour ago, cman said:

No. Your problems are yours not mine. It's on you not me or anyone else. 

Gottcha. Fair enough.

8 minutes ago, cman said:

The only one to answer your questions is the one lord you you said you don't believe

Hey cman….would it be possible for you to ask the one lord why all the suffering is allowed to go on, and fill me in? Thank you! 

1 hour ago, cman said:

if you thought to really find answers, you would

Quite obviuosly I have been looking for answers and have presented questions on this forum. Most of my questions have been written in the form of sarcasm, expressing my belief there is no god. But, if you have the answers why all the suffering is allowed to go on, please lay them out. Just grab one question and explain it to me. 

9 hours ago, WordWolf said:

An interesting point about vpw talking about power was that vpw usually ripped off other people's stories, other people's accounts of things happening, or he just made some up to support some point (his sole training was in HOMILETICS, or making stuff up.)   So, we got accounts of him healing lots of people where there were no witnesses and no proof very far away.... and when he couldn't produce even a FEW of those locally with twi'ers, it was THEIR FAULT he couldn't do it because the people in India believed to get healed and the people in the US didn't. 

So, vpw heals some imaginary people- or pretends he healed some real people, depending-  and then when it doesn't happen here, he blames the people trying to get the deliverance.  Things were never vpw's fault, to hear vpw say it. 

Other times, he copied anecdotes from real Christians- which wasn't as common because he would lack details. But their accounts helped him fill in the details of the fictional accounts he allegedly performed. 

If there is a Real God, this is NOT how He works, nor would He rely on con-men and hoaxsters to get the job done.  But you've heard He did- that's right, the con man insisted God Almighty worked through him and he was doing what God Almighty wanted.   Looking back, do you still buy that one?

“If there is a Real God……”.   what a tremendous statement.
Why would a loving God allow His people to be tricked by con-men and hoaxsters?  Has he enjoyed watching the suffering all the folks at GSC have had to endure at the hands of VPW? Why has He just sat back allowing such mental and physical anguish and pain? So many woman this loving God has watched as they were sexually abused by the leaders supposedly representing Him.

 I guess we are supposed to believe there is this supreme being floating around some place in the vast universe He created. Not only does he monitor our every action, but also our every thought. Not just your and mine actions and thoughts, but every person who has ever lived, and will ever live. And He keeps track of every action and thought, good or bad. If the thoughts are good He will lay some nice rewards on us at the end of time. If they are bad, forget it….you will be cast into the ever unquenching fires of hell for eternal suffering.

 

 

8 hours ago, cman said:

seems the natural conclusion to what twi teaches

I don't know if you believe that bs or not

If the bs you are referring to is my post about a crazy god who has caused extreme pain on the human race, then yes,  I do believe it. If the bs concerns some teaching by TWI, please elaborate.

On 9/8/2023 at 9:55 AM, Raf said:

Glad you survived.

I'll pray for you.

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HAHAHAHAHAHA!!

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Ok but seriously, you're in my thoughts and I hope you have a good support network to walk you through.

The best anyone can do is to have thoughts and prayers. 

35 minutes ago, Rocky said:

Dude, I don't and wouldn't speak for cman, but really even if he was criticizing you, blow it off. In the grand scheme of things/life, it doesn't matter whether anyone here ever agrees with us or not. 

Hey Dude, I am merely asking for clarification and wondering what his meaning was. Isn’t that the purpose of a discussion? If he is criticizing me, fine, I have no problem with it. Possibly we can come to an understanding.

In the grand scheme of things/life not too much that is posted on GSC matters if anyone agrees or disagrees with it. The reason it matters to me is someone trying to breakout from TWI can obtain support and understanding here.  Reading a post may free them from the bondage they are in. 

2 hours ago, chockfull said:

You’re easily entertained.  Wait until the real autocorrect power kicks in.  

When logic and good sense fail, all that is left is playing their ace in the hole….Judgement Day. “You just wait, someday you will stand before God and He will punish you for not agreeing with me. Waa Waaa Waaaa”

3 minutes ago, chockfull said:

What it does mean is that you are still trolling up disingenuous arguments that have nothing to do with your beliefs.  To me that distracts from people like the one on the Reddit article that really want to recover from TWI.

And yes your beliefs have everything to do with what you can and can’t read.  
This dense jackfoot statement really gets a chuckle out of me! Oops, I forgot to throw in how @sshat it sounds, also.

18 minutes ago, So_crates said:

And your point is...?

This is like Saint Vic preaching about unicorns and me saying we never were meant to have unicorns, so you respond: Since you left the ministry have you gotten any unicorns?

I missed the teaching where Saint Vic was preaching about unicorns.

15 minutes ago, So_crates said:

And your point is...?

This is like Saint Vic preaching about unicorns and me saying we never were meant to have unicorns, so you respond: Since you left the ministry have you gotten any unicorns?

Let me ask you? Do you believe people can manifest God’s power?