Stayed Too Long

7 hours ago, So_crates said:

Yah, forgiveness.

Everytime my mother would betray me, she would want to be forgiven. "We've got to start over from scratch," she would say. So I would forgive and forget and all she was really doing was setting me up for her to do the same thing all over again.

It sound to me like you want us to forgive and forget.

How  did you come to that conclusion? 

God require us to forgive, he says nothing about us having to forget.

God says we are to be as wise a serpents, which includes not falling into the same trap again.

The ministry sending out time to come home cards feels like deja vu all over again.

The type of forgiveness you want us to have requires trust and trust is earned.

Yes, God requires forgiveness by his followers when they have been wronged.

On 8/30/2023 at 11:15 PM, Rocky said:

Well... thank you, you made an excellent point. 

1) I didn't say they were undeserving of forgiveness. I didn't think I was implying it either.

2) Looking back on the post and comments I made above, I'm wondering how you may have come to conclude, or even infer I was equating either of them to murderers. If you'd be so kind, I would appreciate you expounding about that on this thread.

3) Considering the two decades of people writing about their experiences on GSC, let me clarify my intent as being to criticize the actions each of the two of them took as cult leaders, and criticize the cult structure and conduct related thereto. There's plenty to show and tell about the power dynamics in and of themselves.

4) Again, thank you for reading and watching the videos. 

This was Rocky’s initial response when I posted about forgiving VPW and LCM and there was no concern about going off topic. In 4) Rocky thanked me for reading and watching the video.
Even as chockfull and I have been going back and forth for several days no concern was shown until today. 

1 hour ago, chockfull said:

In the Bible does it say if you confess your sins then God is faithful to forgive your sins?  Or it doesn’t say that in your Bible?

My discussion never centered around God’s forgiveness of sinners. It has always been about the victim forgiving their perpetrator so the victim can move on with their life. I sighted the example of murder victims families forgiving the murder, enabling the families to move forward with their lives.

“Or it doesn’t say that in your Bible?”   Becoming a bit snarky, eh?

If that is true then what is your conclusion on forgiveness?  Is there recognition and / or action required on the part of the sinner or they can just keep on the exact same evil lifestyle and God and everyone else needs to forgive them because you say so?

See above comment.

I read Jesus words of encouragement to his followers who revered and worshipped him as just that - words of encouragement and a figure of speech regarding “greater works”.

It is nice you can call something that makes no sense, or impossible to perform, inspiration and a figure of speech. 

If you believe the “greater works” is literal then maybe you could list out the things you have done in your life that are greater than what Christ did and we can all compare notes.

I don’t claim to have performed anything greater than Jesus performed. I used the greater than Christ example to illustrate He had forgiven his executioners, so we can, at least, forgive VPW, LCM, & TWI for the wrong they have inflicted on us.

Or as you say list out the works you have done that are equal to Christs works since it is so logical.

You are going down rabbit holes. Surely you can sight some instances in your life where you have performed the works Christ did. 

To me scripture is for inspiration.  So yes it is personal.  But the wrong dividing of scripture produces bondage not freedom.  So I take issue with the wrong dividing of scripture that leads people to bondage.  Like PFAL and the law of victim blaming.  Wait that’s law of believing.  
 

To me Wierwille’s interpretation of the bible is as valid and any other religions. Ask yourself,  how using the same bible, hundreds  of Christian interpretations are possible? The RC’s will send you to hell for missing their holy days of obligation or not confessing to a priest. That will certainly  create bondage in your life. Every denomination had their own interpretations from the same book. One of the posters on GSC has even written a new book about the bible, only adding one more interpretation to the mix of hundreds.

Throw in Jews, Muslins, and other religions, using the same bible, the only logical conclusion, to me, is there is no interpretation possible.

 

My heart is so thankful for you. My wife and I went through the adoption process and know it is intense. Congratulations to you both!

8 hours ago, chockfull said:

One interesting point here is research points to a distinction in the audience Jesus was addressing.

The foot soldiers who were carrying out crucifixion orders were among those addressed directly there.

It is arguable that he was extending this to the Pharisee group that were arranging his crucifixion or the local authorities like Herod making the decisions.  Many noted researchers draw the distinction in audience here not just me.  Plenty to learn if you study it.

In your studies of this event, who do you believe may be not included in Jesus’ forgiveness?

There are a lot of things within the realm of possibility.  The whole “greater works” is a schtick of VPW that he hyped up in his class to try and show that mandated glossallalia was greater than what Jesus did on earth.  It also is anti Christ as it puts someone or some ministry in the place of Christ between you and God reconciling people to God.  Which is beyond their authority.  The genuine ministry of reconciliation referred to in scripture reconciles people to God via Christ.  It doesn’t reconcile people with a ministry, a leadership group, a hamster wheel to run on with the benefits going to an organization of men.

Let’s forget about the minstry of reconciliation you refer too, but logically, we should be able to do at least the works Christ performed.  

It doesn’t say “forgive VP, Craig, Rosalie, and current doofuses and come on home”.

Does any scripture you believe is about you, list your name specifically?

God that “greater works” misinterpretation to pump up a man’s ego and exhort him to bondage annoys me.  Jesus was simply encouraging them to carry on on the faith he started because he was soon ascending.

The scripture says we will perform greater works than Christ, so you can be annoyed all you want insisting it is simply encouraging people to carry on their faith. If Jesus only wanted to envourage them, he would have used words encouraging them. 

But noooooooooooooooooo.

We learned in Plaffy that it is Gods Will for people not only to be saved but come to an experiential knowledge of the truth.  And the only way they can do that is …..  wait for it ………………………………….

more Plaffy!

See it is a a self solving problem!

Now all that’s left is for the grifters to go shopping!

 

2 hours ago, chockfull said:

You had a whole graphic fictional incident that sounded like a gang kidnapping.

Then you drew a parallel to Jesus forgiving his murderers.

And hyped up greater works than Christ like the PFAL class.  But these greater works according to you are measured by how immediately we forgave Craig or VP.

I have no idea if VP or Craig ever asked for my forgiveness.  I’m thinking no.  

It does seem like you are getting to your point though - “no prison sentence would be appropriate” - yes it was very difficult to get anything on Warren Jeffs despite overt illegal acts for decades.  But Craig induced a suicide by his adultery and VP drugged and raped young women on his bus with assistance from Geer.  And exposed himself to a woman who may have been underage at the time from a published book account.  

But hey no punishment would be appropriate, right chief?

Chief? 
My INITIAL point was not “no prison sentence would be appropriate.” It was that some people need to forgive their wrong doers to move on in lives. Then I pointed out Jesus did exactly that as he was being executed by crucifiction. Then presented a possible present day scenario of someone being executed and wondered if they could forgive their executione’s as Jesus did? If Jesus forgave then it probably would be a good idea for his followers to forgive. 
As far as prosecuting LCM or VPW goes,  VPW is dead, and if there is evidence LCM broke the law, bring it to a  a prosecuter. Someone killing themselves because of LCM’s actions is terrible, but, I don’t believe, a crime. 

12 hours ago, chockfull said:

Whenever the topic of cults and the evil actions of founders and top leaders come up, there is always this argument present.

I call this the “whitewash argument”.  It masks as forgiveness, but the unintended extended consequence is that it excuses the evil behavior of the leaders and hides it due to people being imperfect.

Whitewash argument? You have taken it upon yourself to read into something I never said or implied. I provided the example of your lord and savior, Jesus Christ, forgiving those who had tortured and crucified him. Then wrote out a possible scenario of a Christian being murdered, and before they died, forgaving their murderer.  
I expected someone who is a Christian to say they felt the mrdered person was correct to forgive their rapist and murderer. But, the white elephant in the room, has been ignored by all. In stead you come up with a whitewash argument.

I was duped as much as anyone in TWI, being a part of it for over 20 years, but knew I should have left years before I was M & A. Why didn’t I leave? Because I didn’t have a support system outside of TWI and didn’t want to lose my rewards. 

This is the exact lie that all of the current top leaders in TWI tell themselves every day.  “Well VP and Craig weren’t perfect, or Rosalie or the current clowns.  I’m not perfect either.  It’s the best thing we’ve got in an imperfect world.”

Who has put forth this argument? I never said anything mounting to, “It’s the best thing we’ve got in an imperfect world.”  

Saying that Craig and Rosalie for that matter should be serving a prison sentence rather than lavishing in their current situations has nothing to do with my emotional recovery from the cult they lead or did lead.

LCM & TWI have to some degree been held responsible; Craig was kicked out and TWI has been sued in court. Apparently neither has committed any criminal activity so no prison sentence is appropriate.

No I’m not immersing my head in the evil and making my whole life about revenge but that doesn’t discount the evil that happened and will continue to happen if people don’t wake up to the reality and stop accepting people lying to you.

I am long past forgiving people for their personal actions related to my life.  It is really funny though how whenever I call out the truth of something it always wraps back around to some judging me for being “unforgiving”.

Fool me once shame on you.  Fool me twice shame on me.

You have completely missed the entire purpose of ghee or clarified butter. It has been explained in prior posts on this thread so I am not going to repeat them. 
You seem to be consumed with the word rancid, trying to equate it with $2.95 butter. What price do you pay for your rancid, bacteria free butter?

It must be my incorrect wording, but I did not mean to imply you were equating Wierwille or Martindale to murderers. I only used the anology of murderers to illustrate that survivors found it necessary to forgive the murderers for their crimes in order to move on with their lives. The anology could have been someone spreading lies about them, stealing their money, taking credit for doing something another performed, or you can fill in the blamks with your own examples.

If one believes in the bible it is apparent Jesus certainly practiced forgiveness, as he forgave those who crucified him, as they were crucifying him. It did’nt take him decades, years, weeks, or days to forgive them, but immediately. Can you image yourself being kidnapped, raped, hog tied, beaten, pistol whipped, thrown in the trunk of a car, driven to another spot, removed from the trunk, dragged to an awaiting hole in the ground, a shotgun aimed at your head, and you knowing full well you will be dead in the hole soon, and your final thought and words being, “I forgive you because you don’t know what you are doing?”

Again, if one believes in the bible, it says you can do greater works than Jesus, so the above scenario is certainly within the realm of possibility. 
 

Wierwiile and Martindale definitely controlled and manipulated us, but nothing they did compared to murder,  so us forgiving them should not be an over stretch or out of the realm of possibilities.
 

How about practicing some understanding of Wierwille and Martindale, after all, they are only human beings, and as pointed out in the video, deserving of forgiveness. 
Many people have had to find the inner strength to forgive those who have murdered their loved ones. There are murders who have been spared the death penalty only because the victim’s survivors asked  the authorities  to not execute them. Only then could they move on with their lives.

On 8/3/2023 at 10:15 AM, cman said:

And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.

And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him

You have just joined the ranks of Mike! Congratulations.

“Weight loss and increased physical fitness nearly halved the risk of losing mobility in overweight or obese adults with type 2 diabetes, according to four-year results from the Look AHEAD (Action for Health in Diabetes) trial funded by the National Institutes of Health. The results are published in the March 29, 2012, issue of the New England Journal of Medicine.”

Most people have  the ability to  lose weight and become more active, and it will allow them to become more mobile.

Quote

https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/weight-loss-increased-fitness-slow-decline-mobility-adults

1 hour ago, cman said:

reminds me of every place Jesus taught on the kingdom of heaven, an easy word search

and mostly John 3, the whole chapter and this "Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?"

"true repentance" ? who could show it? different for each person I reckon...

If, as you reckon, true repentence is different for each person, why did you attempt to define it it your original posting?

A business is charged a fee from the issuer each time they accept a debit or credit card for payment. Some business’  are now adding the fee onto the cost of their services. It used to be there was no fee for using a debit card, but that seems to have changed.
 

For a small business it is very costly  when an item is returned to the company. They are charged up to 3.5% when the sale is made, and up to 3.5% when the item is returned, resulting in a net loss of 7% of the sale price. 

I work part time as a cashier for a food chain and believe a card is used 90% of the time for purchases. Paying with a check is used much less than paying with cash. We only accept checks from local residents who have their address printed on the check.

5 hours ago, Charity said:

Atheism, nontheism, skepticism: Questioning Faith

I thought I'd add what the moderators posted about this forum.

"The Greasespot rules apply here just as they do on any other forum. They apply to everyone, regardless of forum "status" or authority. They apply FOR everyone, regardless of faith or lack thereof.

This forum on Questioning Faith was started in order to isolate discussions on atheism from other discussions on doctrine. It was started specifically in response to complaints in the Actual Errors in Genesis thread. There was an ERRONEOUS belief that the doctrinal section is for believers only, and that people who are not believers are "wasting their time" posting in doctrinal. Let it be clear: anyone of any faith (or lack thereof) is free to post on any thread in doctrinal. Efforts to make posters feel unwelcome in the doctrinal section because of their beliefs will not be tolerated,

Several days ago you were not even aware the   Atheism, nontheism, skepticism: Questioning Faith thread even existed, and now you are telling us what it means. No one has ever been made to feel isolated for posting in the thread, that I am aware of. Please point out when this has happened. Where have you heard a believer was told “they were wasting their time” posting in doctrinal? 
I post in the Atheism thread when my subject is a questioning of faith nature. I don’t believe in god, so why would I want to post that god is a creation of man, in the doctrinal thread. 
If a posterer is exclaiming there are actually three Gods in one God, it would be posted in the doctrinal thread because it would not fit in the atheism thread.

 

 

 

The same goes for Questioning Faith. ANYONE can post here, no matter what you believe.

But whether it's an atheist in the doctrinal section or a believer in Questioning Faith, it is expected that your contribution to the discussion will be On Topic."

If two people are discussing who is the best active player in Major League Baseball, you can't decide this is the right place to talk about whether the Red Sox blundered trading Babe Ruth to the Yankees. You don't get to declare the thread to be about baseball in general just because baseball is an element of the conversation.

If you are not interested in a conversation, you do not get to unilaterally change it. If you would like to start a related discussion, feel free to do so. That will keep the thread on topic while still allowing you to explore ideas inspired by but not directly related to the topic at hand.

Calling someone deceitful will not be tolerated.

Calling someone demonic will not be tolerated.

If you're going to call a statement untrue, be prepared to back it up. The issue is the statement, NOT the person making it.

Believers are more than welcome to challenge atheist ideas in Questioning Faith. Believers are welcome to start threads and initiate discussions. They are more than allowed to participate in discussions -- they are invited to do so.

The point is to have a discussion, not a monologue or an echo chamber.

Challenging someone's beliefs = fair game.

Mocking them or demonizing them for holding a belief = NOT fair game.

7 hours ago, Rocky said:

Did you view the video with Michio Kaku?

I should have said the Pentegon is still denying any coverup. We only have the data now of UFOs because of the whistleblowers bringing it to the U.S. congressional hearings. 

14 hours ago, Rocky said:

My view is Mike is completely free to have been a seeker who just decided. However, that's not what Mike's role as an activist for promoting all things Wierwille, PFLAP, and the associated written collateral materials... ARGUING (incredibly poorly) for that position.

Last night, I tried to pin him down and get him to justify his position. He replied with what I read as extreme frustration, expressed with emotionally immature and accusatory language. I realized at that time the only way for me to reasonably respond to him when he does that is with compassion.

I maintain that his advocacy for all things twi is worthy of reasonable and aggressive pushback. When he seems to go off the rails, that signals to me he needs to be responded to with compassion.

Congratulations! It took you several decades to realize Mike’s responses are not on the up and up. Why so long?

You have made numerous posts about true repentance that are difficult for me to understand. Please put concisely in one post your definition of true repentance.

Who do you believe is afraid?

What mind games are being played?

Thank you.

We know the government is not going to shed any light on the UFO situation. Their response to the whistleblower was to demand they not disclose any classified information they know about the situation. All the feds are doing is holding a gun to the head of anyone who would shed light on the situation.

On 7/4/2019 at 8:25 AM, penworks said:

Or, for something completely different along these lines, there's a very compelling argument for doing away with bible study altogether in a "shocking" book called The End of Biblical Studies (gasp!) by Hector Avalos, PhD.  Prometheus Books. 2007.

Just sayin … there is an alternative viewpoint for those interested in questioning the value of continuing to hammer away at biblical texts in hopes of recreating "the original." Even if we did reach that goal, what would we have? A text that still contains contradictions (four different viewpoints in the 4 gospels), violence against "unbelievers," in the Hebrew Bible, condemnation of homosexuals, subjugation of women, etc.

The only result of continued attempts to “rightly divide the word of truth,” is more divisions, and the establishment of additional religions. When Martin Luther posted his 95 thesis it did nothing more than setup a new religion. The Roman Catholic church did not alter their beliefs as a result of Luther’s declarations.  The only outcome was the beginning of the Luthern church, and now there are 60 variations of the Luthern religion.
I guess attempts to “rightly dividing the word of truth,” is not possible, because it only leads to more division? 
Look at TWI. How many new religions have begun by those who took PFAL, and who have done additional research of the the word, and have determined their research is superior to VPW’s? They now have a fellowship in their home which only increases the number of religions in the world. 

 

Just sayin … let's take a look at bibliolatry and get honest about that. Perhaps this is a topic for the Doctrinal thread. Sigh … 

On 3/4/2023 at 6:34 PM, Rocky said:

“You will face many defeats in life, but never let yourself be defeated.” -Maya Angelou

I like this quote. We will face many defeats in life. It is one of the reasons for living our life. We are meant to face challenges. And to learn from them.

I think the first way in not allowing ourselves to be defeated is by recognizing challenges will occur. We will not, and cannot, win every challenge which comes our way.

So, my challenge for you is to figure out a way to face those defeats, but not let yourself be defeated. Find the wins in every challenge you are nearly being defeated by.

Depending on the catagory of one’s life being addressed, measuring defeat can be varied. If a baseball hitter successfully gets on base 3 out of every 10 trips to the plate, he is considered a success. If a parachutest fails to deploy his or her chute only 1 time, it can lead to the ultimate defeat. A sales person is required to make a minimum amount of sales to be succeesful. A business owner may not get too many chances to succeed if they cannot read the market they are invested in.

Of course these fall into the catagory of making a livelihood, so one must also be able to know their limitations. If you choose baseball as a career, and out of the last 10 times at bat you get a hit only 1 time, it would be wise to choose another path to support your family financially. 

If someone is talking about bettering their life emotionally, mentally, or physically, they had better be prepared to accept defeat on many turns, but not allow themselves to become defeated. I have experienced defeat so many times when attemting to grow mentally, it is impossible to count. The only thing I can do is pick myself up, start over again, and probably be defeated again. But, at some point, a bit of light shines through, and all the effort has been worthwhile. The result may not be totally what I wanted, but it keeps me going on to greater heights. 

At one point in my life I was terrified of public speaking. To overcome this I joined a group called Toastmasters International. It’s programs began with very easy tasks such as talking in front of the group for a minute. Then learning how to avoid saying, “uh” every other word, then lengthening the speaking duration to 5 minutes, to going to speach meets competing against other groups. The point being it was like taking baby steps, and not a huge leap forward.

As long as a person can find habits, thoughts, and actions to change in their life, they will never want for something to do.
 

On 3/4/2023 at 6:34 PM, Rocky said:

“You will face many defeats in life, but never let yourself be defeated.” -Maya Angelou

I like this quote. We will face many defeats in life. It is one of the reasons for living our life. We are meant to face challenges. And to learn from them.

I think the first way in not allowing ourselves to be defeated is by recognizing challenges will occur. We will not, and cannot, win every challenge which comes our way.

So, my challenge for you is to figure out a way to face those defeats, but not let yourself be defeated. Find the wins in every challenge you are nearly being defeated 

A visit to Yellowstone National Park and Old Faithful Geyser, plus hundreds of other boiling pots, will allow anyone to experience what burning sulphur smells like….rather obnoxious, for sure.

On 7/10/2023 at 10:54 AM, T-Bone said:

Hi Grease Spotters !

This is my last post. The Grease Spot Café is extremely helpful for anyone who wants to be free of the harmful and controlling cult, The Way International. And not just to be clear of their physical influence but also unencumbered by their twisted ideology. One must also unravel the insidious nature of their doctrine and practice that becomes embedded in the mind. I was unaware of the intellectual and emotional baggage that had festered – even after I had left the cult - - until  I came to The Grease Spot Café.

By my own estimate, I think I overstayed my welcome here by about 16 years.

I’ve come to realize I have not always kept my wits about me - and often   my  participation here has brought out the worst in me.

For me – and I can’t emphasize this enough – for me -  The Grease Spot Café became a rabbit hole. For me it developed into an intricate and convoluted labyrinth of assorted feedback and I let it take up way too much of my time trying to sort through options and possible resolutions.

I wish everyone well.

Sincerely

T-Bone

We must be led down a rabbit hole by someone, and we have to ultimately decide to follow them down the hole, just like we followed VPW down his rabbit hole called TWI.

After awhile it should have become obvious there are several rabbit hole “leaders” who post on GSC, and their intentions are only to disrupt the thread. They will twist just enough of the subject with the idea of only inticing others to bite and take the bait. Once hooked, apparently the gullible actually believe they can point out the errors to the “leader” of his/her posts, and he ar she will miraculously thank them for the correction.

But instead, the “leader” slightly twists the subject a bit more, and drag the firmly hooked, further down and around the hole. After days and pages of postings, that have accomplished absolutely nothing, the hooked finally give up in exasperation, but seem to only wait for their “leaders” to throw out the next bone for them to chop on, and the crazy arguments continue again.

Could it be that we have some of the same, still within us, that allowed a man to lead us into his cult and control our lives for years and decades? Do we still need to be led by another?

Or might another possibilty might be, after several decades of posting on GSC, there are simply no new subjects to discuss about TWI? We have dug up postings begun twenty plus years ago, and put a new twist on them. Do we need to run down rabbit holes to keep things interesting day to day on GSC?