Outin88!

If da class was free, anyone who was hungering and thirsting for God's word (not that I'm eqating pfal with Gods word) would have stuck with it. The only point in charging money for it, imo was so TWI would get their cash. And of course he had to include a copy of "Christians should be prosperous" Gotta make sure these new grads would tithe don't cha know!

Jesus Christ never charged money, Paul & the other disciples never charged money for the Word. As mentioned by Bliss when asking a church official about charging for classes they were surprised and asked why! I don't have a problem with secular organizations charging for classes, it's their livelyhood, but to charge for the gospel imo is wrong based on my understanding of the Bible. A workman is worthy of his reward, I can understand that, but I don't believe it's talking about preaching the gospel. If Wierwille offered pfal for free, as I believe he should have, I also believe folks would have given money freely as a gift.

Oldies said; "quote: Knowhere that I know of in the Bible does it say to charge money for the word. But it does say a workman is worthy of his reward. I forget what verse but I think it's in more than one place. VP and others spent lots of wood and time working on the class, so it should come as no surprise that there would be a one time nominal fee." I can understand paying some money for books etc. But I reiterate (SP?) that I can find no verse that says to charge money for the gospel. But, I do find verses that seem to indicate not to charge money for God's Word; Acts 8:20 "Peter answered: "May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money!" 2 Cor 2:17 "Unlike so many, we do not peddle the word of God for profit. On the contrary, in Christ we speak before God with sincerity, like men sent from God." 2 Cor 11:7 "Was it a sin for me to lower myself in order to elevate you by preaching the gospel of God to you free of charge?" 1 Cor 9:18 "What then is my reward? Just this: that in preaching the gospel I may offer it free of charge, and so not make use of my rights in preaching it." 1 Tim 6:10 "For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs." All verses are quoted from the NIV version of the Bible.

I like what Socks wrote. Well stated. Knowhere that I know of in the Bible does it say to charge money for the word. And like Wayfernot, the churches I've taken classes at never charged money, except maybe for a book, but as she stated, they make it available for free to those that couldn't afford it. And one church I attended gave away Bibles to those that asked for them. That it the Christian way, TWI being a cult was just looking for money. As far as a so called principle that if they pay they'll be more committed, tell it to Jesus who alsways taught for free!

"What did he mean by "stick?" Offshoot?" I believe it was Martindale that coined the phrase as someone who has broken off from the way tree and became a stick, i.e. not getting life from the tree thus a dead stick, or something to that effect.

Amen A la prochaine! BTW, I love your other quotes! :)-->

Thank you Rascal! :)-->

I admit, to my shame that at one time I had the same attitude towards churches and non twi believers as personalentertainr. My parents didn't raise me to act in such a bad manner, so where did I learn this from? TWI TWI, being a cult taught us to criticize and make fun of non TWI Christians. Why? Because they didn't want to lose followers and their money to churches that were more loving and godly then TWI! But after a few years away from the ungodly cult of TWI, I started to grow up unto Christ and repented of this evil attitude. I realized that church goers are part of the body of Christ and they're my brethren, even if I don't agree doctrinally with them 100%. I started applying the second greatest command to love your neighbor as yourself and threwout the arogant, ungodly behavior as taught by TWI. I attend church not because of doctrine, but because I love God and my brethren in Christ, I attend to worship God and fellowship with others who love God. There are some churches I prefer not to attend, but I wouldn't be hateful towards them, since that would be against God's Word.

Yup, it's a good read! My wife was in the Corpes with Karl and was very curious so we bought the book and found it to be very interesting.

Thanks Sister Ex. Jesus said the two greatest commands are to Love God with all your heart, mind, sould and strength, and the Love your neighbor as yourself. I really don't recall commands that says not to love others or to not fellowship with those that disagree doctrinally with you.

Hi Jan, I've been attending Pureheart Christian fellowship church, here is a link to their website; http://www.pureheart.org/main.html

I once heard Martindale say, and I'm paraphrasing here, "Churches are swamp breeding grounds for devil spirits" or something to that effect. One of the more devilish things, imo about TWI was there constant negative attitudes towards their brethren in Christ, i.e. Churches! I now believe they did this to keep us away from churches to get us to stay with them and keep giving them money and our service. Just part of the cult mentality IMO.

Allan said; "the differn't churches attended by GSers' gives credence to my point that the haughty 'attacks'on twi 'foundational' truths is definitely from a 'slanted' angle.!!" Are you saying that because some of us prefer church to TWI that we have a "slanted angle"? Thats nonsense! All of us were a part of TWI and at one time bought into their doctrines. But many here at GS Cafe, after investigating TWI doctrines have found a lot of error in them. Allan, instead of chastising those who disagree with you doctrinally perhaps you should discuss your, or TWI's biblical beliefs in a rational manner over in the Doctrinal forum, who knows, maybe you'll be able to show biblically where some of us are in error. But maybe, if you listen you might learn something too!

Hi Jan, If church isn't your thing and you want to check out some of the offshoot fellowships, you should be able to locate one near you throught their websites. Here's a few I know of; Christian Family Fellowship (CFF) http://www.cffm.org/ Christian Educational Services (CES) http://christianeducational.org/network/index.htm Cortright Fellowship and believers home pages http://www.cortright.org/

Hi Jan, Glendale boaders Phoenix to the west.

Hi Jan, I'm in Glendale AZ. And to answer your question about my kids going to church the answer is yes, my daughter really likes going, she attends a childrens group.

My wife and I attend a church semi-regularly. It took me years before I would even consider attending a church, since I thought I knew the Word better then they did! Once I "un-Waybrained" and did actually start checking out churches, I found that most taught the word very well. In fact I'd guestimate about 90% of the time I cannot find a problem with their teachings. However they mostly teach "milky" teachings. I've conceded that there is probably never going to be a church or offshoot that I'll agree with doctrinally 100% of the time. What I do like about church is the loving, non-judgemental attitude of the people in the churches I've attended, and the praise/worship which is so much better then TWI or any offshoot I've attended has.

I've spent some time with CES in the early years. Haven't been involved with them since about 1998/99. But I have bought a few of their books and tapes since then. As Oldies said they attempted to keep the baby and throw out the bathwater. I believe they did a decent job of correcting many erroneous TWI doctrines. I'd recommend those still "waybrained" to buy some their material that differs from what TWI teaches. Here is a link to the various doctrines CES has corrected and their study materials they have for these subjects; http://christianeducational.org/25diffTWI.htm I don't agree 100% with everything they teach or promote, but IMO they have done the best job correcting error by TWI of all the offshoots I've looked at. As for, if they are giving credit to Wierwille in their teachings, in my opinion yes, all their books list a bibliography that includes Wierwille's name. But keep in mind that Wierwille had very few things that were his, so in many cases CES rightfully gives credit to Bullinger et.al. in their bibliographies.

I once heard Dale Sides, who was a former limb leader/Reverand in TWI and founder of LMCI, an offshoot. talk about spending time with B.G.Leonard and stating the B.G was very upset at how VPW copied his class calling it PFAL. Dale mentioned that while taking B.G's class he noticed a lot of similarities to PFAL, including the character names, Magee Muggins, Johnny Jump up etc. Wierwille didn't even have enough imagination to make up his own character names, pathetic! And speaking of PFAL, here is a link to Raf's fine work on Actual errors of PFAL for those who haven't seen it; http://www.livingepistlessociety.org/ActualErrors.pdf

Allan said; First, whose talking about "mainstream" churches? The topic is about TWI and it's doctrines, or should I say "borrowed doctrines". But besides the plagerism, many doctrines taught by TWI were just plain erroneous. Here's a few; "absent Christ", Jesus Christ is not absent, he is the Lord to all Christians and very active in the ministry. "The law of believing" and "Your fear can cause the death of your child" Beleiving the promises of God can equal receiving them, but believing in your beleiving is a croc! You cannot cause things to happen via your mind, and beleiving takes place in the mind. Your mind cannot cause someone to give you red drapes! Fear is something God gave us for a good reason. Your fear cannot cause your childs death! Both of these doctrines as taught by TWI mostly are nonsense. "tithing" This was an old testament law for specific groups of people, primarily farmers, but is not for the NT beleiver. Giving is encouraged in the NT but there is nothing about tithing. "The more abundant life" is not some special gift where we enjoy material abundance on earth. Jesus came to give us eteranl life after getting saved. Abundant means a lot of somthing. The abundant life is a lot of life or eternal life. "Adultry and fornication" Both biblically very bad sins and something God commands us not do. "Abortion" As far as I'm concerned, it's murder, but even if you try and back it up as okay based on OT scripture, it's still considered a sin and the OT required retribution if someone caused her to miscarriage. "Guardian angels" They don't disapear once you get saved which is what VPW taught, many scriptues talk about Angels helping beleivers. "Higher powers of Rom 13." Is not talking about church leaders. There are several other erroneous doctrines taught by TWI, these are just a few. And I'm not going to debate these doctrines on this thread, many of these have been and are being discussed in the doctrinal section.

Wyafer Not said; I agree. I'm not so niave (SP?) as I once was. Also I met my wife while I was with the cult and not knowing any Bible, did learn some, even thought IMO half they taught was erroneous. I met some wonderful people and made some good friends which I don't regret either.

I'd guestimate that approximately 50% of TWI's doctrine was erroneous, possibly more!

My advice Smurfette, is check out different offshoots, listen to the teachings that differ from what TWI taught and check the Word to see if these things are so. CES(Jal, Scheonheit) has something like 25 different doctrines then TWI, CBC(VF) teaches several differences then TWI such as administrations and LMCI(Dale Sides) teaches almost everything different then TWI. I certainly don't buy into everything they teach, but they will make you think. Try going to CFF fellowship, and some of the others, and see if it's where you want to be.

I haven't been involved with CFF since late 97 so it's very possible things have changed. When they first started, they were attempting to become like TWI of the 70's. And they very much were. For me, when I left TWI I just couldn't bring myself to go to a church, due to my still being waybrained, I just didn't trust churches, so offshoots offered a place to fellowship. After a while, I felt that offshoots were not the place God wanted me to be at and began checking out churches. I found that some of the churches were great, and I had been wrong about church.

Smurfette said; "I think someone here had called the offshoots in general a halfway house of sorts." I'm the person who said some offshoots can be a half way houe to "un-waybrain". What I mean by that is for those who left TWI and still have the "waybrain" attitude, some offshoots can offer a sense of familiarity. Some offshoots have attempted to correct the erroneous TWI doctrines, so when you fellowship with them, you start to think, which can lead to "un-waybraining" your mind. My experience with CFF was that I got involved with them at their inception around 96/97, the people involved were wonderful, loving and caring. My biggest complaint with them was they praised Wierwille, often referring to him as "father in the Word" or "Man of God". Since I knew Wierwille was a plagerist, adulterer, liar, drunkard and taught many erroneous doctrines, this was a big turn off. But of all the offshoots I checked out CFF definately had the nicest folks involved, and John Shroyer is one of the most caring, loving and sincere leaders I've ever met.