Outin88!

Hi Wackey and Galen, The house is a 3 bedroom with a small office, a full basement and 2 baths. It's on a hlf achre of land with a large shed. My wife and I are anxious to move in, but for now, my 17 year old son wants to finish school here. So the hope is that when he graduates, we'll be headin on Down East. It would great to go to the fair and meet all the Mainers. Just have to wait a bit! For now the house is being rented and we bought another home in AZ. which cost triple what we payed for the house in Howland Maine, even thought they are roughly the same size. Anyway, thanks for askin, Were hoping that maybe within the year we'll be moved to Maine.

I'm not involved with any offshoots but I have checked out four. For my wife and I, two offshoots (CES and LMCI)were like a "halfway house" to "un-waybrain"! One thing that helped me with these groups was the correction of erroneous TWI doctrines and practices. There were some similarities to TWI in these groups but there were also many differences. Anyone still engrossed in waybrain or not sure what TWI doctrines are right or wrong, imo would benefit from hearing some teachings from these groups which have attempted to correct some erroneous TWI doctrine. CES has something like 25 doctrinal differences then what Wierwille taught and LMCI teaches almost everything differently. Even if you don't buy into the all the offshoots doctrines (I don't), it may help you to think about what TWI may have taught and practiced wrongly. It did for me. I've also checked out two other offshoots, (CFF and Geers group) but I didn't spend too much time with either since both appeared too similar to TWI for my taste. The folks involved with CFF were really nice and very loving. The folks in Geers group were judgemental and were not that loving unless you agreed 100% with them. I haven't been involved with any of these offshoots in years so it's possible they may have changed since the last time I hung out with any of them.

Hi Wackey, Glad your doing well. And looking forward to seeing you again. No timetable yet on moving, but maybe a year or two. My oldest has a year of school before he graduates, so after that we'll see about moving. The folks are livin in NH now and everyone's doing fine. The common ground fair sounds great, but not sure I'll be able to go. :(--> But were really lloking forward to moving "Down East" It's clean and healthy there, the people are so friendly and we really love country living.

Hi Wackey, We just closed on the house in Howland, and are renting it out for a while. Not sure when we can move up there, but hopefully it's sooner then later. I look forward to meeting all the Mainers when we finally make the move. Galen sounds like your making progress, any ETA?

I don't know about Wierwille getting spiritual spikes, phenomema or revelation back before TWI, but with all the erroneous doctrines he taught it seems to me It wasn't God giving it to him. And I think Belle brings up a good point. Wierwille was an educated experienced preacher, thats what he knew for a profession. Once he was fired from his denominational preacher job, it seems he decided to go into business for himself. I don't know if he had a burning desire to preach the Word or not, but one way to get people to follow him, and pay his salery was to have a radio program as an advertisement. Whether or not Vesper chimes youth caravan was a way to get followers, or maybe he just wanted to preach the Word I really can't say for sure, but I suspect it was to get followers.

Galen, Are you still moving to Old Town? Well be fairly close to you from Howland. Oh and Onion, Thanks for the welcome!

Hello Johnny, I sent you a private message.

Clue: This is Outin88's wife. I helped you send Miceal to New Zealand for his graduation assignment. I also played a rousing game of softball w/your wife in Juneau in '85!

Johnny Lingo said; "Yup Maine sounds wonderful." Hi Johnny, I met you and your wife once while I was a wow in Juneau 84/85. You guys are great folks. Maine is quite wonderful and so is Alaska which my wife and I considered moving too also, but we have relative in NE so we went for Maine. They have a saying in Maine; "Maine, the way life should be" And Wackey, we'll have to get together ole friend, when we finally make the move.

Hey Onion, Thanks for the warm welcome! --> I'm not too worried about the economy since Bangor is 30 minutes away, and the University of Maine is 20 minutes away. Since we are buying this house so cheaply I'd only need to make half what I make now. Anyway we won't be moving there right away and may just rent it out for a while. But I can't wait to move up there, Maine is beautiful.

Hello Mainers, My wife and I are in the process of buying this home in Howland Maine. Anyone live near there? http://www.realtor.com/Prop/1047412172

Thanks for the compliments, please excuse the typos. --> And wordwolf, you can quote me!

Part five my final post of my mini bio on VPW. Fact: VPW went to Tulsa OK to learn how to speak in tongues. RS: He claimed he was snowed in and because of that he was able to be led into SIT. Comment: The weather report shows it did not snow that dat he claims it did. Kinda makes ya wonder if he was fibbing, huh? Fact: VPW never asked anyone, at least that I know of to call him "the man of God", but he refers to himself as such on several of his teachings. And allowed people to call him that. Comment: IMO, VPW enjoyed the adoration of his followers, which to me was egotistical and wrong. Fact: VPW plagerized from various authors such as Stiles, Leonard, Kenyon and Bullinger. Comment: For a man who supposedly received revelation from God, to have to plagerize is pathetic to say the least. RS: Wierwille claims A.B. Dick corporation wanted him for their CEO or some such position. Comment: Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha. Please!!!!!!!!!!!! Fact: Wierwille taught that Jesus Christ was absent, That in order to have God's blessing we have to tihte, that all believeing equals receiving, and that fear in the heart of a mother can cause the death of her child. Just to name a few erroneous teaching. Comment: I'm not taking the time to explain why these teaching of VPW's are erroneous, but if you want email me and I'll explain further. All of these teaching put many TWI followers in bondage to some degree. Fact: Wierwille taught Cancer was a devil spirit, yet he died from cancer. Hmmmm. RS: At VPW's funeral, it was reported that his wife Dorothy said Vic was a mean man. Final comments: VPW was educated, but imo not to what he led people to believe. It's possible VPW started out with good intentions, but it's also possible he started TWI as a con. I don't honestly know which is true. But I do believe he taught some accurate bible, and also several erroneous doctrines. He was nice at times and did help some, but also used and abused some folks. He lived a lifestyle that alowed him money, sex and power. This is what I'd tell someone who asked me about VPW.

Part four of my mini bio on VPW. Fact: VPW came up with the WOW program, where people would volunteer to spend a year witnessing God's word and running PFAL classes. The volunteers payed their own way with no help from TWI. Comment: It's been reported that many who went wow went hungry and dealt with various hardships. I've heard that some who went wow were not mentally stable and caused harm to those they lived with. What was the "leadership" thinking? Fact VPW taught that every woman in the kingdom belonged to the king. He taught something like that in the NT it was "spiritual adultry" not physical that God thought of as sin. RS: It's been widely reported that VPW, who set himself up like a king in twi committed adultry with many women. In some cases it was reported that women were drugged so wierwille could have his way with them. I don't know if thats true, but it wouldn't surprise me. Fact: Wierwille taught abortion was okay, that it wasn't murder. RS: It's been reported that VPW payed for abortions of those he knocked up. Comment: I can't say the above statement is true, but I wouldn't doubt it. I do know of women that got abortions based on VP's erroneous teaching.

Part three of my mini bio on VPW: Fact: VPW took BG Leonards class, then started out teaching it. Eventually copying a large part of it and renaming it to PFAL. VPW inserted his own stories and some stuff he borrowed from others, like Bullinger, but copied BG's character names such as Maggie Muggins and Johnny Jump Up. Comment: I've heard the BG Leonard was upset over VPW coping his class, but because BG did not set up copyrights Wierwille got away with it. Fact: VPW filmed PFAL, then showed it to some Christian hippies who were mostly responsible for witnessing his class and forming groups in other areas of the country. Fact: VPW started a program called the "Way Corps" whu=ich in theory was aimed to teach those who enlisted in it to be discolined, spiritual believers who would lead fellowships and teach God's word. RS: The Way corps became a nazi-like group used to brow beat believers into TWI's programs, i.e. what Wierwille wanted imo. Comment: Like marines corps, many of the "way corps" would follow orders from the top, i.e. Wierwille. In some cases believers got hurt. Fact: Wierwille taught tithing and had the money brought to HQ, where he was in charge. Comment: I've heard various stories where believers who had faithfully tithed for years went without because VP taught if you don't tithe God won't bless you. Fact: VPW accumulated buildings, two planes, motorcycles and a motorcoach. Plus he reportidly took a cruise in the carribean each year and traveled throughout the US, Canada and Europe enjoying praise and admiration and getting treated like a king. Comment: Any other church organization I was involved in, they gave money towards charitible causes. TWI as far as I know never did, and would promote giving more cash to TWI instead.

Part two, my mini bio of VPW: Fact: VP was ordained as a pastor and pastored two small churches in Ohio. RS: It has been rumored that VPW committed adultry with a church secretary and when his wife found out he said too bad if you don't like it, or something to that effect. Comment: Based on so many testimonials about VP committing adultry, the above rumor wouldn't surprise me. Fact VPW took his family on a missionary fact finding trip to India and claims he was appalled at what he found. RS: Wierwille claims he healed people and cast out demons, and was given a key to a city. Another reports says he started a riot and caused trouble for the missionaries. Comment: I have no way to prove either of the above statements, but it's odd to me that if Wierwille was given the key to the city why TWI didn't have a larger following in India. I also don't recall ever seeing or hearing of VPW healing anyone in the U.S. Why could he do this in India where knowone, except his wife and his young children were eye witnesses. Fact: VPW was asked to leave his pastorate and he mutually agreed. He decided to start his own organization and did a radio program called vesper chimes youth caravan. RS: Wierwille prayed to God for answers and God spoke to him in an audible voice, giving VP a sign by causing it to snow in a time of year that it doesn't snow. Comment: According to the weather reports it did not snow that day in Ohio. While this could have been phenomena, I doubt the whole snow story. RS: God told VP that if he'd teach the word to others that God would teach VP the word as it hasn't been know since the 1st century. Comment: Based on what I now know of the Bible, I find many errors in what VPW taught, thus I find it very questionable that God told VP the above. In addition, I find it hard to believe that God would wait almost 2000 years to teach his word accurately and why would God only teach VPW.

Wordwolf said; "Let's say you were asked to write a biographical sketch of the man Wierwilleso that others-who'd never heard of him-could understand him in one read." Well here's part one of my "mini biography of VPW" I'm going to write it with facts and "Rumors/spectulation" with my personal comments. And I'll do it in successive posts, since I hate long posts. Here goes; Fact: Victor Paul Wierwille was born on a farm in Ohio of German ancestry. Enjoyed riding motorcycles and playing Basketball. Rumors/speculation (RS) His father was an abusive alcholohlic who forced Vic to attend a seminary college to become a preacher because they had give so much money to the church. Comment: If this is true then perhaps VPW didn't have his heart fully into becoming a preacher, but I really have no answer for this. Fact: VPW was a very good Basketball player. RS: VPW invented the hook shot. Comment: I seriously doubt VP was the inventor of the hook shot. Fact VPW graduated from an acredited college and earned a bachalors degree, eventually he earned a masters degree. RS: VPW earned a Doctorate. Comment: VP took a corespondence course(s) at Pikes Peak seminary college, which was not accredited. It's been widely reported to be an "degree mill". I wonder if he did much work on these courses anyway. At any rate I don't consider him a true Doctor.

Diazbro said; I agree. It worked for my wife and I. While in TWI they taught us that only they had the complete truth of God's word "as it hadn't been known since the 1st century". They also taught us that Churches were primarily a bad place because churches taught JC is God and the dead are alive etc. I think it was Martindale that said something like, and I'm paraphrasing here "Denomiational churches are swamp breeding grounds for devil spirits" or some such nonsense. So when my wife and I left TWI we felt at that time the only option was CES, and at that time it was the only offshoot that we were aware of. So I believe many people who leave TWI and still want to fellowship with christians tend to go where they're comfortable. Offshoots can be their "comfort zone". But depending on the offshoot this isn't necessaily a bad thing, at least for the short term. It can be a half-way house to de-way-brain. As for me and my wife weve grown past the ignorant thinking that only TWI or those previously involved are the only one's that know the word accurately. That doesn't mean I'd completely throw out everything offshoots have to offer. But I no longer believe that TWI or offshoots have all the answers either. I believe if your only eating off the plate of one minister or oraganization, your not getting a balanced diet, spiritually speaking. I also beleive that not all offshoots are a carbon copy of TWI. I think it's wrong to label them all this way based on my experiences with the one's I've checked out. I have seen some offshoots or those involved at the leadership level get involved with churches, go to an acreditted college and earn degree's in Bible studies, and reachout out to other christian groups that were not part of TWI to learn, at least to some degree. Oldiesman said; For some offshoots I would agree.

Welcome to GSCAFE mdvaden! I've spent some time with four of the offshoots. Here's my 2 cents about them; CES http://www.christianeducational.org/ started by John Lynn, Ralph Dubofsky, John Schoenheit and Mark Graeser teach some decent Bible imo, and have 25 or more differences in doctrine the TWI/VPW. The CES people I fellowshipped with were good folks imo, no tirant types that I ran across, but I haven't been involved with them since the late 90's so I'm not current with them. I found CES to be an decent "half-way" house to de-waybrain. And there best contribution was the teachings on Jesus Christ. CFF http://www.cffm.org/ started by John Shroyer and Wayne Clapp has some wonderful folks involved, I fellowshipped with some when they first started out in the mid-90's. The fellowship was always sweet, but my critique of this group, based on may experience was they were too into VPW. I have not been involved since 1997 so my info may be out of date, I don't know where they currently stand on doctrinal issues but back in 97 they were totally into Wierwille, a turnoff to me. I spent a short time with a fellowship that was associated with Chris Geer (sorry I don't have a web site), it felt very legalistic and the people were often judgemental, plus they too were too into Wierwille for my taste. When I introduced some of CES's doctrine they were not very receprtive and poo-pood it almost instantly. LMCI http://www.lmci.org/ started and led by former TWI clergy Dale Sides I found interesting for a while. He teaches almost everything differently then TWI. I found Dale was a fascinating preacher to listen to, but disagreed with some of his doctrines. CBC http://www.christianbiblicalcounsel.org/ started by Vince Finnegan I have little knowledge of. I did buy some tapes about 10 years ago taught by Vince they were decent teachings on the Bible. One of the things the bugs me about the offshoots, which I'm not currently involved with any, is that they don't promote each other's teachings. It's like rival businesses. Anyway, I'm not endorsing any offshoot, but you might find it rewarding to check out the ones that have attempted to correct erroneous TWI doctrines and then research the word to see if these things are so.

While I admit there is some truth taught in the PFAL class, there is also many errors. Please check out Raf's excellent article on Acual Errors in PFAL; http://www.livingepistlessociety.org/ActualErrors.pdf Here's an older discussion of PFAL Review; http://ourworld.cs.com/PFALREVIEW/PFALD1.htm

Whats this got to do with TWI? Maybe Paw should make an offshoot forum!

I believe Wierwille went to Pike's Peak as a shortcut to getting a true doctorate degree. I think he wanted the title of doctor to make himself sound important. Personally, I feel since it was not accredited college, it's not a true phd; Here's a discussion on this subject a while ago, Resrearch Geek argues that VPW earned a doctorate. Check out the link; http://gscafe.com/groupee/forums?a=tpc&s=9...7031#8916087031

Thanks for the info Galen. Sounds like you have a nice piece of land to build. We were thinking more on buying a older home with a little land in a small town. But building a place, that sounds interesting, I'll think on that. Onion, I used to live in Eliot Maine but today I couldn't afford the house I used to live in since the prices went up so much, due to all them yuppies buying up homes and land!

Onion, thanks for the links, I guess you live in Mexico or Rumsford? Beautiful area.

I'm so sorry Wacky. I saw this and thought of you, check it out. http://www.realtor.com/Prop/1037723145?lnksrc=00045 Here's another one you might like; http://www.realtor.com/Prop/1035121807?lnksrc=00045