Outin88!

The cape sounds great my old friend Wackey, i'd love to have you as my neighbor. Problem is, I'm about 300k short. :(--> By the way, what's happening with your Vermont homestead? Galen, that sounds awsome. Hey maybe well be neighbors. Do you know anything about Greenbush or Corinna Maine? Saw some nice homes for sale online there. My wife and I really miss country living and we both love Maine. The town of Surprise AZ, where we live was a small farming community a few years ago, but it's growing so fast. It was about 20k population when we moved here and today it's 70k. It's getting to be like Phoenix here. Anyway Central Maine looks very nice to me. Any GSpotters that live in that area???????

Ahh, Maine, "the way life should be"!!! My wife and I have been seriously considering a move back there. We were looking at the central area around Waterville (Kennebec county). Were also thinking about the Bangor area too. Anyone live around there that can share info on what it's like? Hows the job/housing/schools in that area, any exTWI fellowships around?

Coolwaters; CES is where I first learned that "All beleiving equals Receiving" as taught by TWI was not biblically correct. And that the fear in the heart of that mother did not kill that little boy. To my knowledge they still teach that faith (pistis) is a noun, not a verb that connotes action as TWI taught. LMCI to my recallection also does not teach "all believing equals receiving" but that beliving the promises of God can equal recieving of those promises. But most importantly, both groups teach on the Lordship of Jesus Christ. For these reasons I recommend some of thier teachings.

I've had experience with 4 "offshoots". CES, CFF, LMCI and Geers group. I've had no involvement with any since about 1999, so my summation of them may be out dated, but here goesa summation of each; CES I got involved with CES from it's beginning and received their tapes/magazines until around 1996. I did not like their aggressive promotion of momentous. And I don't agree 100% with all their doctrines and practices. But I believe CES has done a very good job of correcting most of Wierwilles erroneous doctrines and practices. I would not hesitate to recommend several of their books or tapes. CFF I got involved with CFF around their beginning in 1996/97. I lived in Florida at the time and had friends who really liked John Shroyer, so I checked CFF out and fellowshipped with them for about a year. I really like the people involved with CFF, very loving folks. But They were very into Wierwille being the MOG, and held his teachings like gospel. This was a big turnoff to me. Geers group I spent a very little amount of time maybe six months hanging with a group connected to Geer in 1994 when I lived in Maine. Some of the fellowship and teachings were okay, but I felt they were very judgemental and held Wierwille and Geer in too high esteem for my taste. LMCI As for LMCI (Dale Sides) I really like his style of teaching, and he teaches almost everthing different then Wierwille/TWI. As much as I enjoy his style, I disagree with several of his doctrines and practices. I would however recommend some of his teachings, especially those on repentance and on Jesus being Lord. I'm curious if there are any major changes with any of these groups. Anyone else want to share on if they've changed their doctrines and prctices. Does CFF and Geers crowd still hold VPW in high esteem?

I gave TWI a few years after POP to fix/repair itself, but instead of repairing or getting better it got worse so I left in 1988. Fast forward to today, and after reading and hearing of all the incredible amount of corruption and evil that has taken place in TWI, I seriously doubt it will ever fix itself. Besides, if you want a TWI-Like organization there plenty of offshoots of former wayfers to choose from.

Oakspear said; "Wierwille does a good job in spots, especially early in the class, of letting the bible speak for itself. He points out differences between the clear reading of the bible and what tradition teaches. He starts off by documenting biblically most of what he says. Little by little he starts moving away from that. While reading the King James, he continually tells us what the words really mean, and throws out definitions that occur nowhere else. Because he started out plainly reading what was written and taught us some pretty straightforward "keys", we swallowed what he taught without question." Excellent observation Oakspear. I agree! All you folks wanting PFAL books and VPW materials, have you read through threads like this? Have you even considered that Wierwille could be wrong on some of what he taught?

Oakspear said; "This thread has gotten pretty long, and maybe we discussed this, but what about Wierwille's "definaition" of an atheist of someone who doesn't believe? Maybe it's not in the book, but remember how he goes on about an atheist can't be an atheist because he believes that he doesn't believe, therefore he believes?" I remember that too, it didn't make sense to me when I forst heard it, and it still doesn't.

Happy Birthday to my good friend! :)-->

I'm sure JT is correct in that it costs a lot to rent a hotel room for an event like this. Someone posted that 2000 people attended their last "Advanced class", at $185 a person thats $370,000. Do they charge everyone that goes $185, or is it just those who have never taken the class? Lets say a fourth taking the class that year were the only ones paying $185, thats $92,500. Why can't TWI have their "advanced class" during the summer at Gunnison and HQ where they have dorms or people could rent rooms from a cheaper hotel in St Marys to attend their class at HQ. Then maybe they won't have to charge money for it? I feel sorry for the poor folks duped into paying for this "advanced class". How much did Jesus charge when he taught? [This message was edited by Outin88! on January 15, 2004 at 13:04.]

Dawayback, welcome to GSCAFE!!! You asked; "Which part of it was real and which part of it was all imagination?" Interesting question. Hmmm, I'll list a few items of what I think was imaginary about VPW & TWI. VPW having a legitimate doctorate. Since he got it through a degree mill via the mail! Snow in the summer, or early fall, I doubt it. And anyway the weather reports say otherwise! The Word of God wasn't taught like VPW taught it since the 1st century. Somehow, I doubt God would wait that long, almost 2000 years! That the fear in the heart of mothers kills thier children. I can't believe I ever thought that was true. And there are many other doctrines and practices we were taught in TWI that IMO were fabricated by (VPW or LCM) imagination. Keep reading, check the archives, ask questions, and you'll begin to see some of the nonsense we were taught.

Hi Ex, REV2 had a picture of Beavis and used to get into arguments with Groucho Marx, Evan and others that said less then perfect things about VPW. Anyway, he stopped posting after a while, I think when CFF gave him a job or somthing, but after a year of posting, to his credit, he acknowledged VPW had some sin problems. But he was one of many "wierwillites" on Waydale, he's just one that I recall.

Excathedra said; "when i initially posted something negative about wierwille at the start of waydale, i got blasted to smitherines. and when i talked about sexual abuse....ohmygod. some people said very cruel things" Yep, I got blasted too a few times on Waydale by some "wierwillites" who would attack anyone if you dared say anything nagative about "Their father in the word". Rev2 comes to mind, remember him? Anyway when I said "But I also feel that people should hear the truth." I primarily meant erroneous doctrines as taught by VPW. Ex, I love your humor, and your posts are always a must read for me, just wanted you to know that. And I certainly don't expect you or anyone else to witness or undershepard here. I hope I didn't give you that impression. [This message was edited by Outin88! on January 05, 2004 at 23:48.]

Excellent Thread Linda, you speak with wisdom. Sometimes when new people come the GSCAFE and still have the mindset of VPW was the MOG, I wish there was a milder way to share with them some of the horrible acts commited in TWI and the erronious doctrines we were taught without upseting them to the point of no return. But I also feel that people should hear the truth. Because if they were like I used to be, which was idolizing VPW as the MOG etc. it may help them get out from that sin. Linda Z wrote; "Nothing against Billy Graham, but he never reached me, and I had watched him preach on TV and had gone to one of his large meetings. None of the other ministers I'd grown up around or looked to for a clue about God had reached me. VPW did." I hear ya Linda, I believe that many of us were reached by some of the teachings of VPW. I believe it may have been because some of us were of that rebelious anti establishment era and established religious figures were a turnoff. But TWI with all it's young, cool people was an attraction for some of us, and God was able to work in reaching some of us with some truth of His word. Johnny Lingo, I believe your story about God sending someone. I've heard other people tell similar stories & I don't doubt theirs either. Even though I now believe VPW conned and hurt people, and I believe he taught some erroneous doctrines, he also taught some truth, and people got saved. Oh, and Dot, your posts are amazing. Keep up the good work! [This message was edited by Outin88! on January 04, 2004 at 23:43.]

Hello Linda Carter, Welcome to GS Cafe. I looked at your profile and saw that next to the catagory "What is your purpose in life?:" You wrote "get as honest as possible" Linda, I know that if you hadn't heard any of these things about VP Wierwille before now, that they may seem unbelieveable. But I believe they are true, and the folks writing are being honest! I used to highly esteem VPW, and when I started hearing this stuff, it was upsetting, but the more I investigated the more I found out that these stories are true. If I had the same mindset as I had in say 1985, I probably would have reacted as you did Linda, and perhaps even stronger, because at that time I felt VP Wierwille was the "Man of God" and that he was taught the Word by God "like it hadn't been known since the 1st century." and I thought that VPW was my "Father in the Word" Please take some time to read, pray about, and ask people who are in the know. Ask People that were in a position to know about this. As Dot said, John Lynn is an excellent resource, so are other former TWI leaders like Ralph Dubifsky or Dale Sides. Here is a link where you can contact John Lynn; http://christianeducational.org/contact.htm Linda, I'm sorry if this is upsetting for you, and I truly hope you will post and dialogue with us here are GS Cafe. [This message was edited by Outin88! on December 30, 2003 at 20:33.]

"Jesus, on the other hand, can deliver to the uttermnost, those that come to him. That realization did a lot to break the spell of PFAL for me." Amen Tom.

"Did I use the wrong approach? Should I have used more reasoning?" I doubt you could have reasoned with people like that. It appears to me they were the one's "out of fellowship"! If anything I think you showed great restraint by not just kicking their a$$, since they appeared to have desrved it. And while making threats may not always be the most godly form of communicating, maybe thats just what they needed to hear to leave you alone. So no I don't think you used the wrong approach.

Hi Georgio, I agree with most everything you wrote. Schoenhiet did a very good 6 hour taped teaching on the subject of Creation vs Evolution, which can be ordered through CES. But there are some other very good web sites which have a lot of scientific info on the subject. Here are a few I've visited; Institute for Creation Research http://www.icr.org/ Former Evolutionists who became Creation Scientists http://www.creationists.org/switch.html Center for Scientific Creation http://www.creationscience.com/

I don't have a problem with the name change. And I don't think it connotes cult. I don't agree with everything CES teaches and promotes, but I like most of the material CES produces and teaches. And I highly recommend to any ex-twi'ers to check out CES books and taped teachings, as they helped me become less "waybrained". They have some excellent teachings correcting many of TWI's erroneous doctrines. That being said, I've never thought CES should have fellowships exclusively under their group. I prefer them to be what they started out as, a Christian educator. To me Churches, independent fellowships, and home groups associated with Churches offer wonderful fellowship. But sometimes these groups focus more on milky doctrines. To me thats where CES can play a role in supplementing a fellowship by teaching more meaty doctrines of the Word, by being a Christian educator.

TWI taught some interesting things about Jesus Christ, such as how many were crucified with him and on what day he was born and that he was not God. VPW taught about being an ambassador to Christ in PFAL, yet he also said Christ was "Absent". Therefore IMO many involved with TWI replaced the head, Jesus Christ who VPW said was absent with VPW, or some other leader as the head. Diazbro said it best, "TWI is an ambassador for itself" To answer the question "Is TWI a Good Ambassador for Jesus Christ?" My reply is No!

Ex10, it sure is a small ex-wayworld!!! Ralph came back to Massachusests in 87 after resigning and had several meetings where he set the record straight on what was happening in TWI to anyone who wanted to hear. Thats why I prefaced my other post by saying; "Maybe it's because I was a twig coordinator in Massachusetts during the Ralph D years that I got to hear about many problems and erroneous doctrines of TWI from Ralph, Sue Pierce & JAL in 87-88 timeframe. It surprises me to hear of folks who were in TWI in the late 80's not knowing about the corruption and false doctrines since letters and tapes were being sent all over." I said I was surprised, but I'm finding out that many folks really didn't hear all the stuff I was privy to back in the 80's. But I'm glad for a Greasespotcafe that has forums where people can share what they know, allowing anyone still "in" to hear the truth.

Congrats to you Rags for gettin out! As far as where God has taken me, hmmm. Well I can't say eveywhere I've been since leaving TWI was from God, but here goes....... From 88 to 97, got involved with CES, as in I got their tapes and literature. Attended an independant fellowship with others who subscribed to CES material. Got turned off when they were pushing Momentious. Then when they decided to have fellwoships associated with them, felt it was time sever the ties. in 94 I started to attend a CG related fellowship since we were friends with some of the people in it. I did not agree with all their doctrines either. I went occassionally for a year before stopping altogether. Subsctribed to LMCI (Dale Sides) tapes and literature from 96 to 2000. I hung with and fellowshipped with some friends who were really into his ministry. I like some of what he teaches, but I Don't buy into all his stuff. Attended a CFF fellowship and listened so some of their tapes from it's inception in 96 to late 97. It was a turnoff of how they thought Wierwille was such a great MOG and they taught some erroneous doctrines of his. in 2000 I hosted an independent fellowship for about a year before I moved. 2001 to the present, started attending a non denominational church which the wife and I really like. I don't agree with every jot an tittle they teach but we are happy with it.

Oh, good topic! As my sudo name says I left in 1988. But my wife and I started leaving about a year before we made the decision to leave. Maybe it's because I was a twig coordinator in Massachusetts during the Ralph D years that I got to hear about many probplems and erroneous doctrines of TWI from Ralph, Sue Pierce & JAL in 87-88 timeframe. It surprises me to hear of folks who were in TWI in the late 80's not knowing about the corruption and false doctrines since letters and tapes were being sent all over. I know we sent letters explaining all the erroneous doctrines to folks we knew! But then again, as ex10 pointed out many ignored these letters because those who sent such letters were accused of being "pozest"!!!! My wife and I actually stayed a year after hearing of the adultry and other stuff, hoping to help change TWI. So as Hope said some wanted to stay for that reason too. A group of us, mostly corps would get together and discuss what was happening and what we considered biblical questions regarding some of TWI's erroneous doctrines and practices. We reviewed the Schoenheit Adultry paper, we read various letters from several believers who left and listened to tapes by JAL et al. We would go and hear Ralph speak and Sue Pierce would come to town and teach. After about a year of these meetings we all felt TWI was not getting better, but worse. We felt this organization was not where God wanted us. The decision to leave was not easy and there was a definate transition after leaving, as we were still some what "Way Brained" in our thinking. But after few years, we were seeing the truth more clearly and felt God was blessing us with our decision to leave. In 1999 a friend told me about Waydale and interestingly, after reading Waydale I found more "Way Brain" in my thinking. I've changed my opinion on some things since then. By the way, Just thinking, welcome to GREASESPOTCAFE, a belated welcome anyway!

Hi wyteduv58, you asked "Not to derail this thread but when did Dale Sides become Dr." Check out the link; http://www.lmciweb.org/founder.cfm

Thanks Linda.

Y I outta! - Moe (3 Stooges). :D-->