Outin88!

Greek2me wrote; "OUT in 88, I think the missing piece you referrred to was, in fact, FAITH, ie., finally learning what it really is, and walking in it. It is most definitely not some - ridiculous renewed mind mumbo jumbo believing equals receiving mental gymnastics spew. That, coupled with allowing God to be God; as apposed to me being a god by my *believing* lol, has made a great deal of difference." Amen!

Geeze Linda, I wasn't talking about plagerizing. Here is what I wrote in context; "2 - Did B.G. Leonard ever take PFAL? Details? Not that I've heard of. I've heard the PFAL class was very similar Leonards class from folks who took it. In fact all the character names such as Maggie Muggins were "borrowed" from Leonards class." I said it was similar and that VPW borrowed character names. Word Wolf expounded on what I meant beautiflly. Thanks WW. My point, which I admit I didn't communicate very well here, is that Leonards class was the original, Wierwilles was similar and that he borrowed character names. It was VPW that took Leonards class and used it as a model for PFAL. Whether Leonard copied from someone else on the character names I don't know, and I really don't care, but I do know VPW copied those charater names from Leonard and thats a fact!

I thought I heard Dale say something like he spent much time hanging with BG Leonard on one of his tapes, but I can't say how much time, so, maybe it was just time he spent taking his class. Sorry if I gave wrong info. I trust what Evan says is the truth. [This message was edited by Outin88! on November 11, 2003 at 18:39.] [This message was edited by Outin88! on November 11, 2003 at 18:40.]

Hello ItsStillTheWord I can't answer all your questions but here is the website to B.G. Leonards ministry in Texas; http://ourworld.cs.com/LeonardBG/index.htm You asked; 1 - What was B.G. Leonard's background? (academic, etc.) I know he was an ordained minister originally from Canada. 2 - Did B.G. Leonard ever take PFAL? Details? Not that I've heard of. I've heard the PFAL class was very similar Leonards class from folks who took it. In fact all the character names such as Maggie Muggins were "borrowed" from Leonards class. 3 - Did B.G. Leonard know of the apparent use of his work by VPW? If so, why didn't he take appropriate action to stop it? He did know of it and I'm told was not happy, but I've heard that because Leonard didn't copyright it, it could be "borrowed" and thats why he couldn't do anything about it. 4 - Is/was the B.G. Leonard ministry part of a church somewhere(Texas?). How do they "move the Word"?. Details? Check out the website. 5 - Why was B.G. Leonard at VPW's funeral? Who invited him? I haven't heard of this. I got some of my info on the above from folks like TheEvan who posts here at GS cafe and also from Dale Sides who did some taped sharings on this called "Missing Pieces" and also "Jesus Christ's Judgement on the Way minstry". D. Sides not only took Leonards class but spent much time with him before he died. You can get these tapes from Sides website, here is a link; http://www.lmciweb.org/

Another thing that helped me understand that PFAL wasn't all that was the Private Interpreatation teaching by VPW in PFAL. II Peter 1:20 (KJV) "Knowing this first that no prophecy of the sctripture is of any private interpretation." Wierwille tells us in the class that neither you nor I dare interpret scripture. He then goes on and tells us what the scripture means throughout the rest of the class! This "teaching" on P.I. had many in TWI fear that they might mishandle Gods word. Therefore most in TWI left the interpreation of scripture up to VPW or other "leaders". Because of this P.I "teaching" many in TWI were afraid to attempt to interpret scripture and just bought into what VPW came up. Now look at the NIV translation of this verse. II Peter 1:20; "Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of the scripture came about by the prophets own interpretation." When I read this translation, I understand that it's not talking about those who read the scripture. It's talking about the men who wrote the scripture. They wrote it by revelation from God. In other words they didn't make it up. It wasn't the prophets own interpreation. Even in the context of this verse it's clear to me they're talking about the origin of scripture not the interpretation of it. We are supposed to be workmen of the word and study to show ourselves approved etc. But instead many of us in TWI just bought into VPW telling us that we dare not interpret it, and therefore allowed VPW or others to interpret scripture for us. I'm not saying that we are to make up our own interpretation of scripture, or mishandle the word, but at least for me the understaning of II Peter 1:20 helped free me of completely buying into VPW's interpretations.

It's intersting to me that so many who sat through the class got different meanings from the Abundant Life as taught by VPW. I was always under the impression it meant material abundance. Health and Wealth! I also know others that interpreted Wierwilles definiation of the Abundant Life as I did, meaning material abundance. I just thought it was interesting that the supposed MOG and "teacher" of Gods word as is "hadn't been know since the 1st Century" didn't make it that clear to his students on what exactly he meant! Irregardless of what VPW meant, my current belief on what the Abundant LIfe Jesus came to bring is a lot of life, or eternal life. If I said I have an abundance of Oranges you would most likely undertand that I have a lot of oranges. And thats how I see that passge of scripture as a lot of, or eternal life. I was checking the archives and found a few threads that discuss the "Abundant Life", if anyone cares to check em out, here ya go.... http://www.gscafe.com/groupee/forums?a=tpc...42&m=9586067761 http://www.gscafe.com/groupee/forums?a=tpc...42&m=7166029622

I almost forgot Steve Lortz's thread; PFAL Errors, Even deeper Do-Do; http://www.gscafe.com/groupee/forums?a=tpc...42&m=1526090432

Well, for me it was a slow realization that what was taught didn't always work. Like the fear doctrine and the all believing equals receiving doctrines. I will qualify the above statement by saying that I believe that beleiving Gods promises will equal recieving them. But it's Gods power not our mind power of believing in our beleiving or fearing our fears that make things happen. IMHO!!! I first started to hear that there was erronious doctrines through CES, then LMCI (Dale Sides) and through various believers. After hearing their teachings I started checking in the Word and see that some of these things were so. There are two very good threads he at GS cafe called PFAL review by Jerry Barrax and Actual errors of PFAL by Rafael Olmeda. I highly recommend reading those threads, they offer some great insight into variuos errors in PFAL.

How about a picture of you and your family made into a post card, like folks do at christmas, oops I mean happy house hold holidays, ughh. I'm so glad I'm free to say Christmas now. :)--> Okay seriously, a happy picture of you and the family smiling on a post card. With only a few words on back saying something like were all doing fine, we miss you, and love you. See, this way they have to see it, they won't be able to return it un-opened!

Either 12th or 20th of July would work for me.

Zshot said; "Does anybody have a problem with meeting at Karmicdebt's house (southern Tucson) on 12 July 2003?" No problem with me!

Cannoli's, hey now your talkin! One of my favorite deserts!!! I'm game Tucson area. Patagonia Lake State Park sounds like a cool spot! Just name the place and the time and I'll try and get there with the wife. July 12th would work for me.

Oreganos sounds good to me. Having it in Flagstaff sounds even better!

All thats sounds great Z. Initially in the CFF reunion thread I was thinking about a lunch get together in the Phoenix area for who ever wanted to come. But I'm game to an overnight in Flagg or Tucson or where ever. Just let me know. Thanks.

Hope, I definately feel your pain on this. I've been dealing with ex-wayfers since 1988 who simply deny abuse happened because they didn't see it. I can't completely blame them, but it does get frustrating. What gets me more frustrated is when TWI doctrines are shown to be erronious and folks still deny that VPW was wrong cause he was their MOG. They'll disagree with the Bible and back up what VP said! Hey Jerry B, thanks for bringing out the PFAL review. I was re-reading that today and finding some folks who posted back then who remind me of some folks who currently post. It was fun reading again, I even saw some of my old posts, glad you saved it. I think every PFAL grad should read it. God bless.

I'm building a bridge by the Victors!!! :)--> Almost any Led Zepilin song, Ah Oh, I;'m revealing my age, kinda... :)--> God bless...

mj412 sometimes when writing on these threads, it doesn't quite communicate well. I absolutely wasn't trying to offend anyone. But rather was trying to put my getting into TWI and the flags that I ignored. The purpose was to get those still in to think about flags they might be seeing but perhaps ignoring. Obviously I've offended you, please forgive me, it wasn't my intention, okay? As for my statement of 'I'll take responsibilty' for my actions, thats what I mean. I may have hurt folks while in, and so I'll accept that was my doing and I'll humbly apologize. I heard J.S. mention once that after about 10 years of being out he was sharing with a group of people, when one of them said how J.S. had hurth them while in TWI. He hadn't realized it and apologized for his actions while in. This is kinda what I mean when I say I'll accept responsibility for my wrong doings. God bless.

This thread wasn't started to blame victims. I believe we were all duped by TWI, therefore were all victims to a degree. I did some things I now realize were wrong but I'll take responsibility for my actions and if I've hurt anyone, I'll humbly apologize. Many people got hurt and wounded by TWI a lot worse then me. And I may never be able to comprehend the pain they are going through. I was more trying to make sense on why I got duped into following a cult. My hope was some still in might think about why they are still in and perhaps they have flags they are ignoring. I will not judge or blame anyone for venting in hurt or anger. In fact I believe it can be healthy to discuss the hurt to maybe someday heal and bring closure. Rather then lash out at hurt people I'd rather attempt to love comfort them. One of my goals is to love everyone as Christ loves. Another is to forgive as Christ fogives. God bless ya'll. P.S. chwester, welcome to GS cafe.

Ha ha ha ha gotcha with the glo joke!!! :D--> I knew you'd like that one! :)--> Just thought I'd have a little fun with ya ;)--> ((((Wacky)))) xoxox, Steve

When I was young I was quite rebelious. I was somewhat anti establishement and that went for mainline Christianity too. I was attracted to TWI because it was full of young groovey people were loving and taught some cool Bible. They immediately shared things like JC is not God and pointed at mainline churches as teaching error, such a reblious attitude towards churches I was intrigued. They were openly effectionate lots of hugs, kisses and even back rubs during twig. Nothing like the RC church I attended as a kid. I just followed these cool people's advice and took PFAL. Not knowing the bible, I bought into all the doctrines of PFAL and TWI. I did learn about salvation through grace and some other wonderful doctrines. Not everything in TWI was bad all the time, was it? Samuel was left with Eli and his sons that did evil, yet Samuel became one of the greatest prophets in the OT. For me, I think I needed this type of group at that time in my life to hear the word. How about you? As I became more involved with TWI I started to notice some legalism and felt some things were just plain wrong. Flags popped up but I ignored them. I had some friends and relatives that were warning me about TWI. Later I met other Christians that tried to warn me. I was given a book that talked about TWI being a cult. I chose to ignore these warnings. I believe God was working in me to leave for a while before I did. I just couldn't reconcile my thoughts being from God when this was the ministry that taught me the word. It took some time for scales to come off my eyes before I did leave, and the scales are still coming off gradually even today. I now know many doctrines TWI taught were wrong. God gave us free will I made my choices so I'll accept the responsibility for my involvement. And Thank God I'm out now! God bless.

Hello Wacky my old and good friend. This is Glo.!!!!!!!!! ;)--> ha ha ha ha, Just kidding!!! :D--> Yeah it's me. Hey it's your birthday, I gotta have some fun with ya! Coffee sounds good. Sorry to hear about your foot, hope it heals quickly. Luv ya.

Yup, I've heard that VP copied much of B.G. Leonards class, although I've never taken B.G's class I've heard from people who have. Dale S. a former limb coordinator and Rev did take B.G.'s class and reported in a tape he did called "Missing Pieces" that VPW even copied the charater names of Maggie Muggins, Johnny Jumpup etc. It's really pathetic, VPW could have at least changed those names. But then again people copied him after he invented the hook shot!!!! ;)-->

Wecome Mr Thomas Crown!!!!!!!! Like many of us here, it wasn't such an easy decision to leave TWI. But I'm certainly glad I did! Honestly I'm glad I got invoved in TWI, I learned a lot, but I'm glad I'm out now. I consider my TWI experience a stepping stone in spritual growth. Today I can see why many consider TWI a cult, I can see where I made mistakes while in, but by God's grace and mercy I'm free from the way Intl. and today follow the way Jesus Christ. I look forward to your questions, thoughts and inquiries. If there's any way I can help you just let me know. God Bless.

Thanks everyone for responding. My hope in this thread is that those still in and lurking can see why we left and for good reasons. I think the best reason for anyone to leave TWI is what WEOUT1200 said; "When I finally realized the Jesus Christ wasn't in the equation." God bless ya'll.

Hi Ex10, Unfortunately she had a conflict during the date of the reunion. Jal had called us to personally invite us to the very first Momentous in New England. She decided to go to that instead. I still had reservations about it and did not attend Momentous at that time. Any chance of another Reunion???? Dot, g.o.o.d. o.n.e!!! Any chance you know M.V. ??? Maybe my wife Terre knows you! P.S. after my wifes Momentous, she convinced me to take this class. Reluctantly I signed up for a class in Ohio since I was flying out on business it was easy for me to attend their. On the last day of the class four of us who were taking the class took one of helpers running the class to lunch. One of these people was an ex wayfer. She asked me if I had spoken with anyone still in lately. I told her the story of M.V. above, I said M.V. was a wow with my wife Terre in Austalia and in the 14th corps with her. The girl almost started crying, I said what did I say? She said she was the other wow sis in Australia that year with M.V. and Terre and she had lost conact with them since she had been out for years. Small ministry huh!!! [This message was edited by Outin88! on February 12, 2003 at 10:25.] [This message was edited by Outin88! on February 12, 2003 at 10:41.]