hmmm.. no i don't think that they know without speaking to one another.
That would be more like mind reading. But the "feeling" of some one doing better would certainly communicate, but not from the other person, from the Lord as the Lord chooses. Also the Lord flat out telling you.
In other words it's not an unspoken whether out load our within the mind type deal.
Does this communicate?
Absolutely - finely expressed fine points. Stuff like that keeps me motivated to keep communicating with you.
Also, I think this was a question, that one speaking to another and both understanding would be tougues, but not toungues in the sense of understanding. If it is understood, then it is not toungues in understanding but toungues in communication.
On the other hand, I have no idea what the heck you just said. The best I can do is divide that into 3 or 4 phrases or clauses, maybe a couple of sentences. I don't even see a question mark on the question. I'm not trying to be a strict grammarian here, but if I don't get the sense of a question, a question mark where one belongs might help - or I don't get the sense of what the question is that you're referring to.
You know the old saying about drawing a fish in the sand to communicate to another secretly that they are a believer? Well this is it, the fish drawn in the sand. by words from one to another with the Lord doing the speaking and interpreting. For it is not us, the carnal man that can understand the spiritual things of God but the Spirit of God that is within. Not by works of righteousness that we have done but by his grace.
In Philipians I think....Also 1 Cor 2 comes to mind....
Cuz what good does it do us to hear a bunch of ramblings in some kind of tougue that we were taught in twi and hearing the same old vain repetions over and over and over again. Twi forced this kind of thinking upon us and cut off any other kind of understanding of a very big subject. which I have barely touched upon. Yet trying to make it simple to understand.
For the sake of simple clarification, is this a discussion of speaking in tongues, tongues with interpretation or both? I suppose I could have added niether as an option also.
TheInvisibleDan, post #164, August 11 2006, 1:32 AM
"Does unspeakable "groanings" refer to "tongues, though?
This incredible outpouring of empathy of the Spirit toward our own,
may simply escape words.
"Tongues" are supposedly comprised of words.
But "groanings"? No. Not always, at least.
Someone else here raised an interesting discussion on this passage earlier."
Oakspear, post #167, August 12 2006, 10:05 AM
"This is a good example of the limitations of doing "research" while wearing "Way-colored glasses".
Wierwille said that those verses referred to speaking in tongues, but it's not really clear that they do."
I remember the good old TWI days of getting teachings together – with my surgically attached Way-colored glasses – I was like the Borg – "resistance to our doctrine is futile." The process for doing research while I was in TWI was as follows: Find verses in the Bible and TWI material that proves TWI doctrine is correct. That is TWI's idea of research [more like regurgitate].
I know we got into this verse a few pages back – but honestly I don't think the posters who claimed it refers to speaking in tongues gave any Scriptural support for their claim. It has thereafter lapsed into anecdotal support for speaking in tongues followed by a confusing musing of tongues and understanding…I still think it is an unsettled issue on this thread – so once again here is the verse with some questions to discuss. I don't mean to limit the discussion as only to that one verse – we should follow the context of the whole section – and that is my point – to stay focused on what the passage is about:
This is from The NET Bible [but it's open to submit other versions, of course]
Romans 8:26 "In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness, for we do not know how we should pray, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with inexpressible groanings."
1. What does it mean by "In the same way, the Spirit helps us"?
2. What or who is "the Spirit"?
3. What does it mean by "intercedes for us"?
4. What does it mean by "inexpressible groanings"?
I think what would be acceptable in a doctrinal forum on discussing if Romans 8:26 doesrefer to speaking in tongues would be arguments from logic, appealing to specific parts of the context, defining words from the original languages, references to points that are of grammatical and cultural significance to the verse in question, and books, magazines, websites that offer pertinent information about this verse.
15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
26Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
To go with "groanings" as speaking in toungues has no basis.
Seems it would be more in relation to this-
Revelation 10:3-5 3And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices.
4And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.
Speech beyond words.
groanings which cannot be uttered
That would mean no sound at all, or even better that it's so great that it is beyond words.
In the same way-patience
The Spirit-must be experienced and know it.
Intercedes for us-without it, there would be no life.
I remember the good old TWI days of getting teachings together – with my surgically attached Way-colored glasses – I was like the Borg – "resistance to our doctrine is futile." The process for doing research while I was in TWI was as follows: Find verses in the Bible and TWI material that proves TWI doctrine is correct. That is TWI's idea of research [more like regurgitate].
I know we got into this verse a few pages back – but honestly I don't think the posters who claimed it refers to speaking in tongues gave any Scriptural support for their claim. It has thereafter lapsed into anecdotal support for speaking in tongues followed by a confusing musing of tongues and understanding…I still think it is an unsettled issue on this thread – so once again here is the verse with some questions to discuss. I don't mean to limit the discussion as only to that one verse – we should follow the context of the whole section – and that is my point – to stay focused on what the passage is about:
This is from The NET Bible [but it's open to submit other versions, of course]
Romans 8:26 "In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness, for we do not know how we should pray, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with inexpressible groanings."
1. What does it mean by "In the same way, the Spirit helps us"?
I'll give this shot, in its more proper "gnostic" perspective.
Might this "groaning" also be akin to the "groaning" suffered by creation under the yoke of slavery (cf. 8:15) - the way of liberation from our imprisoned bodies being by way of following our spirit and not our flesh - a process which brings us from death into life. The Spirit helps us through our weakness of flesh. Weare no longer bound by the "breath" of slavery, but we have received the Spirit from the treasure-house of the highest God, whereby we invoke "Our Father, Who art in heaven" (as St. Ephraem cited this passage
in his commentary on Paul's epistles - I find it interesting that Ephraem links this to "the Lord's prayer".
It places Jesus at the center again).
All which belong to the Creator - the "demiurge" - lament even until now. The creation became enslaved not by any choice of her own, but by reason of him who imposed this slavery upon her. Little wonder the creation exults in the "revelation of the children of God"!
But that part of ourselves which still shares kinship with the creation - our fleshly bodies - is under the same "corruption" (8:21) experienced by the rest of material nature. The highest Spirit helps us through this situation, strengthens us, comforts us. Earlier in ch.7 we read about no longer using our fleshly limbs as instruments of unrighteousness, but being guided but Spirit, instruments for good.
"He who searches the hearts knows the gateway into the Spirit;
according to the highest God's bidding,
such attends toward the transformation of the Divine Ones."
This entire chapter ends, in fact: "What can tear us away from the love of Krestus"? Nothing of the creation! -not tribulation, persecution, famine, sword, death, life, the angelic powers of the creator, nor anything else in his creation - can tear us away from
the love of the Benevolent One. Through the love of Krestus we are victorious over the demiurge
and his corrupt world, along with his angelic hosts which employed his law as an iron fist to keep us down.
Romans 8:26 "In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness, for we do not know how we should pray, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with inexpressible groanings." [The NET Bible]
1. What does it mean by "In the same way, the Spirit helps us"?
From The MacArthur New Testament Commentary: Romans 1-8 by John MacArthur, page 466: "In the same way refers to the groans of the creation and of believers for redemption from the corruption and defilement of sin. Here Paul reveals the immeasurably comforting truth that the Holy Spirit comes alongside us and all creation in groaning for God's ultimate day of restoration and His eternal reign of righteousness.
Because of our remaining humanness and susceptibility to sin and doubt, the Holy Spirit also helps us in our weakness. In this context, weakness doubtless refers to our human condition in general, not to specific weaknesses. The point is that, even after salvation, we are characterized by spiritual weakness. Acting morally, speaking the truth, witnessing for the Lord, or doing any other good thing happens only by the power of the Spirit working in and through us despite our human limitations…'for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure' [Phil. 2:13]. The Spirit of God works unrelentingly in us to do what we could never do alone – bring about the perfect will of God."
2. What or who is "the Spirit"?
I find it interesting that in the previous chapter 7 when Paul talks of the struggle with sin I counted approximately 48 personal references to himself [i, me, my, myself]. In Romans 8, when he speaks of life through the Spirit, I counted approximately 20 references to the Spirit. I think it's quite a contrast presented here. Chapter 7 reveals the overwhelming frustration of handling life through the impoverished power of our own sinful nature, our efforts always failing because we focus on ourselves [as Paul shows in the usage of "I, me, my, myself"]. Chapter 8 is a change of focus – instead of being self-centered; we're to be Spirit-centered – our focus being on God.
From The Bible Background Commentary: New Testament by Craig S. Keener, page 431, Romans 8:26: "Judaism usually viewed the Spirit as an expression of God's power rather than as a personal being; like John [chaps. 14-16], Paul views the Spirit as a personal being [cf. 2 Cor.13:14]. Jewish teachers portrayed God's personified mercy or angels like Michael as intercessors for God's people before his throne; Paul assigns this role to Christ in heaven [Romans 8:34] and to his Spirit in his people [Romans 8:26]. The Spirit joins here in the birth pangs, as eager for the new creation as God's children are…"
3. What does it mean by "intercedes for us"?
Again from MacArthur's same commentary, pages 466, 467: "…Because of our imperfect perspectives, finite minds, human frailities, and spiritual limitations, we are not able to pray in absolute consistency with God's will. Many times we are not even aware that spiritual needs exist, much less know best they should be met. Even the Christian who prays sincerely, faithfully, and regularly cannot possibly know God's purposes concerning all of his own needs or the needs of others for whom he prays. Jesus told Peter, "Behold, Satan has demanded permission to sift you like wheat; but I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail; and you, when once you have turned again, strengthen your brothers" [Luke 22:31,32]. Fortunately for Peter, Jesus kept His word despite the apostle's foolish bravado…How glorious that our spiritual security rests in the Lord's faithfulness rather than in our vacillating commitment."
From When Critics Ask: A Popular Handbook on Bible Difficulties by Norman Geisler and Thomas Howe, page 443:
"Romans 8:26 – Is the Holy Spirit our mediator or is Christ?
Problem: First Timothy 2:5 asserts that "there is one…Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus." But Romans 8:26 informs us that the Holy Spirit intercedes for us to God "with groanings which cannot be uttered." How can Christ be the only mediator when the Holy Spirit also mediates?
Solution: Christ is the only mediator; the Holy Spirit is only an intercessor. Christ alone died for our sins [Heb. 1:1, 2], making reconciliation with God possible [2 Cor. 5:19]. The Holy Spirit did not die for our sins; He prays to the Father on our behalf, based on the redeeming work of Christ. Further, the intercession of the Holy Spirit is not in heaven, as Christ's work is . Rather, it is in us. The indwelling Spirit pleads in us to the Father on the grounds of the mediating work of the Son."
From The Bible Knowledge Commentary: New Testament by John Walvoord and Roy Zuck, page 473: "In their weakness both the content and the manner of proper prayer eludes them, but the Spirit Himself comes to their rescue and intercedes [pres. tense, "keeps on interceding"] for us with groans that words cannot express."
4. What does it mean by "inexpressible groanings"?
Again from The Bible Knowledge Commentary, page 473: "Natural Creation groans [Rom. 8:22] and believers groan [v. 23], and so does the Holy Spirit. This has nothing to do with praying in tongues, as some suggest. The groaning is done by the Holy Spirit, not believers, and is not stated in words…Even though the Spirit's words are not expressed, the Father knows what the Spirit is thinking."
Concerning the word "inexpressible" – it is the Greek word alaleetos.The New Testament Transline by Michael Magill notes on this word alaleetos in Romans 8:26 can mean "unspoken, wordless," or, "unspeakable, inexpressible, too deep for words," and is related to the word "dumb, mute" used in Mark 7:37 "…the deaf to hear, and the dumb [alalos] to speak." Mark 9:17 "my son, which hath a dumb [alalos] spirit" and Mark 9:25 "[Thou] dumb [alalos] and deaf spirit, I charge thee…"
Maybe you are correct. I'm still thinking that it is speaking in tongues. There are a couple of reasons.
The first reason is that if it is not speaking in tongues that it is talking about, then I would have to rethink all of what I know about intercession (& think I recognize about it in my spirit) - which I can do, but obviously NOT in the next 5 minutes.
The second reason is that I don't see why I should. This phrase, "inexpressible groanings," which some of you think must mean that it can't be speaking in tongues because tongues are expressed is a figure of speech. Whether it is the person doing it or the spirit doing doesn't change the literal impossibility of the words. There are no groanings (low inarticulate sounds) which are not expressed or uttered in some way; although not in words. So, there are no such things as "inexpressible groanings." So, I'm figuring that either the expression has no meaning or it emphasizes the fact that speaking in tongues expresses something that, to the individual speaking, is inexpressible without the help of the spirit because of the weakness of his flesh.
Y, know, anyway - that's what I'm thinking - comments on that possibility?
The "creation" also groans - does that = speaking in tongues?
No such thing as inexpressible groanings? - but many suffer - "groan" - in silence,
under the weight and pain of oppression.
but many suffer - "groan" - in silence
Indeed! I notice the " that you put at each end of one of the words in question. Why? Because groans are, by definition, expressions or utterances. No one "groans" in silence. But, of course, we all do. As do the very rocks & the rest of all creation.
Therein lies the power of the figure.
Therein lies the power of speaking in tongues; it gives utterance to the inexpressible groaning we've all been subjected to. It is the expression of the absolutely empathetic intercession of holy spirit - expressing what neither we, nor the rest of all creation can express - although we all groan silently.
Probably a wee bit important, Danny! I'll change my mind concerning my overall thesis concerning how this happens, but only as it makes sense to me.
Either way, it seems we are all discussing the action of the spirit that bridges the gap between our weakness & the realization of the promise of life in all its forms. I won't give that bitch up to the rest of the dogs while I have breath or after I have no breath.
No offense intended by any use of any dog expressions.
Maybe you are correct. I'm still thinking that it is speaking in tongues. There are a couple of reasons.
The first reason is that if it is not speaking in tongues that it is talking about, then I would have to rethink all of what I know about intercession (& think I recognize about it in my spirit) - which I can do, but obviously NOT in the next 5 minutes.
The second reason is that I don't see why I should. This phrase, "inexpressible groanings," which some of you think must mean that it can't be speaking in tongues because tongues are expressed is a figure of speech. Whether it is the person doing it or the spirit doing doesn't change the literal impossibility of the words. There are no groanings (low inarticulate sounds) which are not expressed or uttered in some way; although not in words. So, there are no such things as "inexpressible groanings." So, I'm figuring that either the expression has no meaning or it emphasizes the fact that speaking in tongues expresses something that, to the individual speaking, is inexpressible without the help of the spirit because of the weakness of his flesh.
Y, know, anyway - that's what I'm thinking - comments on that possibility?
Tom, you make a distinction when you say "I recognize about it in my spirit." That is a distinction I see in Romans 8:26. In my opinion if the verse was indicating something we did it would phrase it like "my spirit intercedes for me." Like in I Corinthians 14:14 "For if I pray in a tongue, myspirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful." I see a distinction in Romans 8:26 - it is not me making the intercession. It says the Spirit [not "my spirit"] makes intercession for us. I don't see us given any credit for doing anything in that verse.
So if Romans 8 is saying that speaking in toungues twi style is the groanings or whatever. Then those that don't speak in toungues don't get this interceding benefit? Naaa, I don't buy it.
1For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
5Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
Therein lies the power of speaking in tongues; it gives utterance to the inexpressible groaning we've all been subjected to. It is the expression of the absolutely empathetic intercession of holy spirit - expressing what neither we, nor the rest of all creation can express - although we all groan silently.
Tom,
In presenting it this way, poses the most compelling case I've heard so far for not dismissing the possibility of "tongues" having been intended or included here.
8:22 we are aware that the entire creation is groaning and travailing...
8:23 we ourselves also are groaning in ourselves, awaiting the sonship,
the deliverance (or surrendering?) of our body...
8:26 similarly, the Spirit is aiding our infirmity, for what we should we praying, we are not aware, but the Spirit itself is pleading for us with inarticulate groanings (Concordant translation).
The key word may be "similarly" in 8:26, to distinguish the groaning of "creation" from the "groaning" of the Spirit.
If voice - or "interpretation" if you will -was given to the groaning arising from creation itself, I should expect that the words emerging would not be all too pleasant.
Whereas the groaning of the Spirit, when given expression, amount to words of comfort and encouragement.
Re:"Therein lies the power of speaking in tongues; it gives utterance to the inexpressible groaning we've all been subjected to. It is the expression of the absolutely empathetic intercession of holy spirit - expressing what neither we, nor the rest of all creation can express - although we all groan silently."
Of course it that is true, then it would seem that somehow Almighty God needs some human to give voice to His own desires. That's what always seemed so peculiar to me. Why the hell would God need us to make noises that we don't even understand so as to - do what? So He would get to hear Himself think?
The farther I get away from the whole idea the dumber it seems to me - though it never did make much sense to me even when I practiced it...
Thank you George...that's what I was trying to get at at the start of this, not whether TWI had it "right", or what verses backed up what position, but what's the point of it all? What? God can't edify us except by having us speak gobbledy-gook?
Thank you George...that's what I was trying to get at at the start of this, not whether TWI had it "right", or what verses backed up what position, but what's the point of it all? What? God can't edify us except by having us speak gobbledy-gook?
To hit home the point what nonsense religion truly is, perhaps.
By exhorting us to sputter gobbly-gook, perhaps was indeed intended to get us to think.
Speaking in tongues does not replace or cloud thinking, but cleans out cobwebs and gives Holy Spirit a chance to show different vantage points of a situation. Like tuning a fiddle. It puts me in better harmony with Him.
The applicable analogy of the Ford trying to explain Henry did not originate with vpw -- I have found found most of vpw's "good stuff" was plagarized.
Speaking in tongues gets me places I cannot go without it. I am thankful for the ride.
It works for me.
Speaking in tongues gives me a way to pray for those things I know not.
It's groanings of the spirit I cannot articulate.
There's been so many tsunami's in my life I'd be lost without speaking in tongues.
Even with the theological implications being removed, It still seems to be a viable method of meditation wnen used silently; not too unlike using a "mantra". But ,of course, with the prayer aspect added it becomes a "praying mantra".Sorry, just saw one of those critters recently and it brought back that old joke.
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Tom
Absolutely - finely expressed fine points. Stuff like that keeps me motivated to keep communicating with you.
On the other hand, I have no idea what the heck you just said. The best I can do is divide that into 3 or 4 phrases or clauses, maybe a couple of sentences. I don't even see a question mark on the question. I'm not trying to be a strict grammarian here, but if I don't get the sense of a question, a question mark where one belongs might help - or I don't get the sense of what the question is that you're referring to.
Honest, bro, I'm not trying to be difficult.
Tom
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dancing
You know the old saying about drawing a fish in the sand to communicate to another secretly that they are a believer? Well this is it, the fish drawn in the sand. by words from one to another with the Lord doing the speaking and interpreting. For it is not us, the carnal man that can understand the spiritual things of God but the Spirit of God that is within. Not by works of righteousness that we have done but by his grace.
In Philipians I think....Also 1 Cor 2 comes to mind....
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dancing
Cuz what good does it do us to hear a bunch of ramblings in some kind of tougue that we were taught in twi and hearing the same old vain repetions over and over and over again. Twi forced this kind of thinking upon us and cut off any other kind of understanding of a very big subject. which I have barely touched upon. Yet trying to make it simple to understand.
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waysider
For the sake of simple clarification, is this a discussion of speaking in tongues, tongues with interpretation or both? I suppose I could have added niether as an option also.
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T-Bone
I remember the good old TWI days of getting teachings together – with my surgically attached Way-colored glasses – I was like the Borg – "resistance to our doctrine is futile." The process for doing research while I was in TWI was as follows: Find verses in the Bible and TWI material that proves TWI doctrine is correct. That is TWI's idea of research [more like regurgitate].
I know we got into this verse a few pages back – but honestly I don't think the posters who claimed it refers to speaking in tongues gave any Scriptural support for their claim. It has thereafter lapsed into anecdotal support for speaking in tongues followed by a confusing musing of tongues and understanding…I still think it is an unsettled issue on this thread – so once again here is the verse with some questions to discuss. I don't mean to limit the discussion as only to that one verse – we should follow the context of the whole section – and that is my point – to stay focused on what the passage is about:
This is from The NET Bible [but it's open to submit other versions, of course]
Romans 8:26 "In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness, for we do not know how we should pray, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with inexpressible groanings."
1. What does it mean by "In the same way, the Spirit helps us"?
2. What or who is "the Spirit"?
3. What does it mean by "intercedes for us"?
4. What does it mean by "inexpressible groanings"?
I think what would be acceptable in a doctrinal forum on discussing if Romans 8:26 does refer to speaking in tongues would be arguments from logic, appealing to specific parts of the context, defining words from the original languages, references to points that are of grammatical and cultural significance to the verse in question, and books, magazines, websites that offer pertinent information about this verse.
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dancing
15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
26Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/?searc...olewordsonly=no
To go with "groanings" as speaking in toungues has no basis.
Seems it would be more in relation to this-
Revelation 10:3-5 3And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices.
4And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.
Speech beyond words.
groanings which cannot be uttered
That would mean no sound at all, or even better that it's so great that it is beyond words.
In the same way-patience
The Spirit-must be experienced and know it.
Intercedes for us-without it, there would be no life.
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TheInvisibleDan
I'll give this shot, in its more proper "gnostic" perspective.
Might this "groaning" also be akin to the "groaning" suffered by creation under the yoke of slavery (cf. 8:15) - the way of liberation from our imprisoned bodies being by way of following our spirit and not our flesh - a process which brings us from death into life. The Spirit helps us through our weakness of flesh. Weare no longer bound by the "breath" of slavery, but we have received the Spirit from the treasure-house of the highest God, whereby we invoke "Our Father, Who art in heaven" (as St. Ephraem cited this passage
in his commentary on Paul's epistles - I find it interesting that Ephraem links this to "the Lord's prayer".
It places Jesus at the center again).
All which belong to the Creator - the "demiurge" - lament even until now. The creation became enslaved not by any choice of her own, but by reason of him who imposed this slavery upon her. Little wonder the creation exults in the "revelation of the children of God"!
But that part of ourselves which still shares kinship with the creation - our fleshly bodies - is under the same "corruption" (8:21) experienced by the rest of material nature. The highest Spirit helps us through this situation, strengthens us, comforts us. Earlier in ch.7 we read about no longer using our fleshly limbs as instruments of unrighteousness, but being guided but Spirit, instruments for good.
"He who searches the hearts knows the gateway into the Spirit;
according to the highest God's bidding,
such attends toward the transformation of the Divine Ones."
This entire chapter ends, in fact: "What can tear us away from the love of Krestus"? Nothing of the creation! -not tribulation, persecution, famine, sword, death, life, the angelic powers of the creator, nor anything else in his creation - can tear us away from
the love of the Benevolent One. Through the love of Krestus we are victorious over the demiurge
and his corrupt world, along with his angelic hosts which employed his law as an iron fist to keep us down.
Danny
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dancing
hmm-just read what i wrote...
groanings cannot be sit the way twi taught it.
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dancing
for you Danny my friend...
24Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
25For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
26Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
27Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
28Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
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T-Bone
Romans 8:26 "In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness, for we do not know how we should pray, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with inexpressible groanings." [The NET Bible]
1. What does it mean by "In the same way, the Spirit helps us"?
From The MacArthur New Testament Commentary: Romans 1-8 by John MacArthur, page 466: "In the same way refers to the groans of the creation and of believers for redemption from the corruption and defilement of sin. Here Paul reveals the immeasurably comforting truth that the Holy Spirit comes alongside us and all creation in groaning for God's ultimate day of restoration and His eternal reign of righteousness.
Because of our remaining humanness and susceptibility to sin and doubt, the Holy Spirit also helps us in our weakness. In this context, weakness doubtless refers to our human condition in general, not to specific weaknesses. The point is that, even after salvation, we are characterized by spiritual weakness. Acting morally, speaking the truth, witnessing for the Lord, or doing any other good thing happens only by the power of the Spirit working in and through us despite our human limitations…'for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure' [Phil. 2:13]. The Spirit of God works unrelentingly in us to do what we could never do alone – bring about the perfect will of God."
2. What or who is "the Spirit"?
I find it interesting that in the previous chapter 7 when Paul talks of the struggle with sin I counted approximately 48 personal references to himself [i, me, my, myself]. In Romans 8, when he speaks of life through the Spirit, I counted approximately 20 references to the Spirit. I think it's quite a contrast presented here. Chapter 7 reveals the overwhelming frustration of handling life through the impoverished power of our own sinful nature, our efforts always failing because we focus on ourselves [as Paul shows in the usage of "I, me, my, myself"]. Chapter 8 is a change of focus – instead of being self-centered; we're to be Spirit-centered – our focus being on God.
From The Bible Background Commentary: New Testament by Craig S. Keener, page 431, Romans 8:26: "Judaism usually viewed the Spirit as an expression of God's power rather than as a personal being; like John [chaps. 14-16], Paul views the Spirit as a personal being [cf. 2 Cor.13:14]. Jewish teachers portrayed God's personified mercy or angels like Michael as intercessors for God's people before his throne; Paul assigns this role to Christ in heaven [Romans 8:34] and to his Spirit in his people [Romans 8:26]. The Spirit joins here in the birth pangs, as eager for the new creation as God's children are…"
3. What does it mean by "intercedes for us"?
Again from MacArthur's same commentary, pages 466, 467: "…Because of our imperfect perspectives, finite minds, human frailities, and spiritual limitations, we are not able to pray in absolute consistency with God's will. Many times we are not even aware that spiritual needs exist, much less know best they should be met. Even the Christian who prays sincerely, faithfully, and regularly cannot possibly know God's purposes concerning all of his own needs or the needs of others for whom he prays. Jesus told Peter, "Behold, Satan has demanded permission to sift you like wheat; but I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail; and you, when once you have turned again, strengthen your brothers" [Luke 22:31,32]. Fortunately for Peter, Jesus kept His word despite the apostle's foolish bravado…How glorious that our spiritual security rests in the Lord's faithfulness rather than in our vacillating commitment."
From When Critics Ask: A Popular Handbook on Bible Difficulties by Norman Geisler and Thomas Howe, page 443:
"Romans 8:26 – Is the Holy Spirit our mediator or is Christ?
Problem: First Timothy 2:5 asserts that "there is one…Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus." But Romans 8:26 informs us that the Holy Spirit intercedes for us to God "with groanings which cannot be uttered." How can Christ be the only mediator when the Holy Spirit also mediates?
Solution: Christ is the only mediator; the Holy Spirit is only an intercessor. Christ alone died for our sins [Heb. 1:1, 2], making reconciliation with God possible [2 Cor. 5:19]. The Holy Spirit did not die for our sins; He prays to the Father on our behalf, based on the redeeming work of Christ. Further, the intercession of the Holy Spirit is not in heaven, as Christ's work is . Rather, it is in us. The indwelling Spirit pleads in us to the Father on the grounds of the mediating work of the Son."
From The Bible Knowledge Commentary: New Testament by John Walvoord and Roy Zuck, page 473: "In their weakness both the content and the manner of proper prayer eludes them, but the Spirit Himself comes to their rescue and intercedes [pres. tense, "keeps on interceding"] for us with groans that words cannot express."
4. What does it mean by "inexpressible groanings"?
Again from The Bible Knowledge Commentary, page 473: "Natural Creation groans [Rom. 8:22] and believers groan [v. 23], and so does the Holy Spirit. This has nothing to do with praying in tongues, as some suggest. The groaning is done by the Holy Spirit, not believers, and is not stated in words…Even though the Spirit's words are not expressed, the Father knows what the Spirit is thinking."
Concerning the word "inexpressible" – it is the Greek word alaleetos. The New Testament Transline by Michael Magill notes on this word alaleetos in Romans 8:26 can mean "unspoken, wordless," or, "unspeakable, inexpressible, too deep for words," and is related to the word "dumb, mute" used in Mark 7:37 "…the deaf to hear, and the dumb [alalos] to speak." Mark 9:17 "my son, which hath a dumb [alalos] spirit" and Mark 9:25 "[Thou] dumb [alalos] and deaf spirit, I charge thee…"
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dancing
yeah so what do you think T-Bone?
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T-Bone
As I said a few pages back - I don't think Romans 8:26 is talking about speaking in tongues at all.
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Tom
Maybe you are correct. I'm still thinking that it is speaking in tongues. There are a couple of reasons.
The first reason is that if it is not speaking in tongues that it is talking about, then I would have to rethink all of what I know about intercession (& think I recognize about it in my spirit) - which I can do, but obviously NOT in the next 5 minutes.
The second reason is that I don't see why I should. This phrase, "inexpressible groanings," which some of you think must mean that it can't be speaking in tongues because tongues are expressed is a figure of speech. Whether it is the person doing it or the spirit doing doesn't change the literal impossibility of the words. There are no groanings (low inarticulate sounds) which are not expressed or uttered in some way; although not in words. So, there are no such things as "inexpressible groanings." So, I'm figuring that either the expression has no meaning or it emphasizes the fact that speaking in tongues expresses something that, to the individual speaking, is inexpressible without the help of the spirit because of the weakness of his flesh.
Y, know, anyway - that's what I'm thinking - comments on that possibility?
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TheInvisibleDan
The "creation" also groans - does that = speaking in tongues?
No such thing as inexpressible groanings? - but many suffer - "groan" - in silence,
under the weight and pain of oppression.
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Tom
but many suffer - "groan" - in silence
Indeed! I notice the " that you put at each end of one of the words in question. Why? Because groans are, by definition, expressions or utterances. No one "groans" in silence. But, of course, we all do. As do the very rocks & the rest of all creation.
Therein lies the power of the figure.
Therein lies the power of speaking in tongues; it gives utterance to the inexpressible groaning we've all been subjected to. It is the expression of the absolutely empathetic intercession of holy spirit - expressing what neither we, nor the rest of all creation can express - although we all groan silently.
Probably a wee bit important, Danny! I'll change my mind concerning my overall thesis concerning how this happens, but only as it makes sense to me.
Either way, it seems we are all discussing the action of the spirit that bridges the gap between our weakness & the realization of the promise of life in all its forms. I won't give that bitch up to the rest of the dogs while I have breath or after I have no breath.
No offense intended by any use of any dog expressions.
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T-Bone
Tom, you make a distinction when you say "I recognize about it in my spirit." That is a distinction I see in Romans 8:26. In my opinion if the verse was indicating something we did it would phrase it like "my spirit intercedes for me." Like in I Corinthians 14:14 "For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful." I see a distinction in Romans 8:26 - it is not me making the intercession. It says the Spirit [not "my spirit"] makes intercession for us. I don't see us given any credit for doing anything in that verse.
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dancing
So if Romans 8 is saying that speaking in toungues twi style is the groanings or whatever. Then those that don't speak in toungues don't get this interceding benefit? Naaa, I don't buy it.
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dancing
2 Corinthians 5
1For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
5Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
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TheInvisibleDan
Tom,
In presenting it this way, poses the most compelling case I've heard so far for not dismissing the possibility of "tongues" having been intended or included here.
8:22 we are aware that the entire creation is groaning and travailing...
8:23 we ourselves also are groaning in ourselves, awaiting the sonship,
the deliverance (or surrendering?) of our body...
8:26 similarly, the Spirit is aiding our infirmity, for what we should we praying, we are not aware, but the Spirit itself is pleading for us with inarticulate groanings (Concordant translation).
The key word may be "similarly" in 8:26, to distinguish the groaning of "creation" from the "groaning" of the Spirit.
If voice - or "interpretation" if you will -was given to the groaning arising from creation itself, I should expect that the words emerging would not be all too pleasant.
Whereas the groaning of the Spirit, when given expression, amount to words of comfort and encouragement.
hmmm...
Danny
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George Aar
Tom,
Re:"Therein lies the power of speaking in tongues; it gives utterance to the inexpressible groaning we've all been subjected to. It is the expression of the absolutely empathetic intercession of holy spirit - expressing what neither we, nor the rest of all creation can express - although we all groan silently."
Of course it that is true, then it would seem that somehow Almighty God needs some human to give voice to His own desires. That's what always seemed so peculiar to me. Why the hell would God need us to make noises that we don't even understand so as to - do what? So He would get to hear Himself think?
The farther I get away from the whole idea the dumber it seems to me - though it never did make much sense to me even when I practiced it...
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Oakspear
Thank you George...that's what I was trying to get at at the start of this, not whether TWI had it "right", or what verses backed up what position, but what's the point of it all? What? God can't edify us except by having us speak gobbledy-gook?
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TheInvisibleDan
To hit home the point what nonsense religion truly is, perhaps.
By exhorting us to sputter gobbly-gook, perhaps was indeed intended to get us to think.
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Kit Sober
Speaking in tongues.
Speaking in tongues does not replace or cloud thinking, but cleans out cobwebs and gives Holy Spirit a chance to show different vantage points of a situation. Like tuning a fiddle. It puts me in better harmony with Him.
The applicable analogy of the Ford trying to explain Henry did not originate with vpw -- I have found found most of vpw's "good stuff" was plagarized.
Speaking in tongues gets me places I cannot go without it. I am thankful for the ride.
It works for me.
Speaking in tongues gives me a way to pray for those things I know not.
It's groanings of the spirit I cannot articulate.
There's been so many tsunami's in my life I'd be lost without speaking in tongues.
It's really a comfort to the soul.
Wish I had that SIT card now.
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waysider
Even with the theological implications being removed, It still seems to be a viable method of meditation wnen used silently; not too unlike using a "mantra". But ,of course, with the prayer aspect added it becomes a "praying mantra".Sorry, just saw one of those critters recently and it brought back that old joke.
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