"I always thought that "tithing" was part of Mosaic Law... that it had no place in the Grace administration... that Jesus only referred to it a couple of times because he was living under Mosaic Law at the time... "
About your statement above -
What was taught when I was in twi was that tithing was instituted with Abraham which was before the Mosaic law, so it transcended the law and still was God's will after the law administration.
That's what twi taught me as well-about Abraham.
However, the previous statement is true-regardless of what twi taught.
Raf mentioned this earlier.
"According to the Bible, Abraham tithed once, and not of his income, and was called the friend of God.
Well, shucks, I tithed once too. Guess I'm covered."
dmiller's response:
"Right. He tithed to Melchizedek once
(from the spoils of war --- Genesis 14).
NOT from other income. "
If twi really DID hew to what the Bible taught-
instead of flying upon the spoils and maximizing the "pass the loot" strategy,
Does the bible say that Abraham just tithed once and didn't tithe again?
I'll play the "Oldiesman sidetracks the discussion" game.
Hebrews 7
"1For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
2To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
3Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.
4Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.
5And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law,"
According to Hebrews 7,
Abraham gave a tenth-
of the spoils-
returning from the slaughter of the kings.
According to Hebrews 7,
this is different from the Levites, who take a tenth "of the people according to the law."
Was this a one-time thing Abraham did, or did he do it all his life?
"9And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.
10For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him."
Looks like Abraham didn't pay tithes during the lifetime of Levi.
==============
What does the actual account say?
Genesis 14:
" 1And it came to pass in the days of Amraphel king of Shinar, Arioch king of Ellasar, Chedorlaomer king of Elam, and Tidal king of nations;
2That these made war with Bera king of Sodom, and with Birsha king of Gomorrah, Shinab king of Admah, and Shemeber king of Zeboiim, and the king of Bela, which is Zoar.
3All these were joined together in the vale of Siddim, which is the salt sea.
4Twelve years they served Chedorlaomer, and in the thirteenth year they rebelled.
5And in the fourteenth year came Chedorlaomer, and the kings that were with him, and smote the Rephaims in Ashteroth Karnaim, and the Zuzims in Ham, and the Emins in Shaveh Kiriathaim,
6And the Horites in their mount Seir, unto Elparan, which is by the wilderness.
7And they returned, and came to Enmishpat, which is Kadesh, and smote all the country of the Amalekites, and also the Amorites, that dwelt in Hazezontamar.
8And there went out the king of Sodom, and the king of Gomorrah, and the king of Admah, and the king of Zeboiim, and the king of Bela (the same is Zoar;) and they joined battle with them in the vale of Siddim;
9With Chedorlaomer the king of Elam, and with Tidal king of nations, and Amraphel king of Shinar, and Arioch king of Ellasar; four kings with five.
10And the vale of Siddim was full of slimepits; and the kings of Sodom and Gomorrah fled, and fell there; and they that remained fled to the mountain.
11And they took all the goods of Sodom and Gomorrah, and all their victuals, and went their way.
12And they took Lot, Abram's brother's son, who dwelt in Sodom, and his goods, and departed.
13And there came one that had escaped, and told Abram the Hebrew; for he dwelt in the plain of Mamre the Amorite, brother of Eshcol, and brother of Aner: and these were confederate with Abram.
14And when Abram heard that his brother was taken captive, he armed his trained servants, born in his own house, three hundred and eighteen, and pursued them unto Dan.
15And he divided himself against them, he and his servants, by night, and smote them, and pursued them unto Hobah, which is on the left hand of Damascus.
16And he brought back all the goods, and also brought again his brother Lot, and his goods, and the women also, and the people.
17And the king of Sodom went out to meet him after his return from the slaughter of Chedorlaomer, and of the kings that were with him, at the valley of Shaveh, which is the king's dale.
18And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.
19And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth:
20And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all."
Recapping in the closing verses,
"12And they took Lot, Abram's brother's son, who dwelt in Sodom, and his goods, and departed.
13And there came one that had escaped, and told Abram the Hebrew; for he dwelt in the plain of Mamre the Amorite, brother of Eshcol, and brother of Aner: and these were confederate with Abram.
14And when Abram heard that his brother was taken captive, he armed his trained servants, born in his own house, three hundred and eighteen, and pursued them unto Dan.
15And he divided himself against them, he and his servants, by night, and smote them, and pursued them unto Hobah, which is on the left hand of Damascus.
16And he brought back all the goods, and also brought again his brother Lot, and his goods, and the women also, and the people.
17And the king of Sodom went out to meet him after his return from the slaughter of Chedorlaomer, and of the kings that were with him, at the valley of Shaveh, which is the king's dale.
18And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.
19And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth:
20And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all."
Abraham tithed ONCE. To Melchizedek, of the spoils of war.
(NOT HIS INCOME.)
Abraham was called "The Friend of God."
YES, the Bible says Abraham tithed ONCE.
Find the SECOND TIME if you can find one.
Here's a hint: look for the word "tenth" or "tithe" in Abraham's lifetime.
Heck, throw in "firstfruits" just for fun.
If you find ANYTHING relevant to Abraham tithing
(which wasn't already mentioned), sing out.
Here's another hint: I already looked, and it's not there.
Abraham tithed ONCE. To Melchizedek, of the spoils of war,
not his income.
Oldies,
why did you ask this question when you have decades of training in how to
read the Bible, and understand it, and supposedly remember things more fairly
than the rest of us? Shouldn't you have found the results and returned to educate us
as to our failure to read and understand it correctly-
IF YOU COULD FIND AN ERROR?
Or was throwing a question into the discussion your goal?
"I always thought that "tithing" was part of Mosaic Law... that it had no place in the Grace administration... that Jesus only referred to it a couple of times because he was living under Mosaic Law at the time... "
About your statement above -
What was taught when I was in twi was that tithing was instituted with Abraham which was before the Mosaic law, so it transcended the law and still was God's will after the law administration.
Hi - of course I'm just getting my feet wet here. Hopefully this avatar is more suitable. I do love cats, have 4 right now!
Not at all sure if I am posting correctly, but I'll try. I have to agree mostly with Oldiesman for most of the posts I've seen.
Pertinent to this topic, I tithed and abundantly shared (15% of pretax) for the time that I was active in twi (which was 73-86) and felt blessed to do it and felt blessed with the results. Since then, I have given less to the mainstream church I was involved with for 10 years and felt blessed to do that. Recently, I have become involved with a large contemporary Christian church and have been so blessed by the Word taught there that I have once again begun to tithe, pre-tax. I wholeheartedly believe that regardless of what twi taught, tithing is laid out in the Bible as something that God desires of those who believe His word and want to be obedient to it.
I think it's good that you have found a way that giving has blessed you (regardless of location) and it sounds like you don't feel compelled. That is a horse of a different colour, I think.
cheers,
QT
P.S. I like your new avatar...looks like a cat I used to have, and makes me grin.
I love your new avatar.......thanks for being so sweet about my "nasty" first post to you.
I agree with QT, giving to the charity of YOUR choice, any charity that you want to give to, how much you want to give to them is NOT what this thread is about.
This thread is about how twi turned a wonderful, godly principle in the bible into spiritual coercion, if not outright blackmail.
I am glad you have found away to continue giving and being blessed.......because God really loves a cheerful giver.
Unfortunately, LG, you are categorically correct in that ostensibly we must all take the courts at their (inbred, provencial, biased, dimwitted, cowardly, & lethargic) word.
This sounds like the responses I have heard wuite a number of times from different sides of both the political and religious spectrum, when courts make a decision that is unpopular with a particular side.
Of course I dont think there is anyone who will say that courts arent very wrong at times, but that is so much a matter of opinion...as is doctrine and also as are some other things. The good way to take care of this is given by Catcup early in that thread that sits at the top of the "About the Way" forum but is not posted too very much these days. Testimony from the people involved..."what happened to you?".
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WordWolf
That's what twi taught me as well-about Abraham.
However, the previous statement is true-regardless of what twi taught.
Raf mentioned this earlier.
"According to the Bible, Abraham tithed once, and not of his income, and was called the friend of God.
Well, shucks, I tithed once too. Guess I'm covered."
dmiller's response:
"Right. He tithed to Melchizedek once
(from the spoils of war --- Genesis 14).
NOT from other income.
"
If twi really DID hew to what the Bible taught-
instead of flying upon the spoils and maximizing the "pass the loot" strategy,
you would have been taught THIS, instead.
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oldiesman
I don't know.
Does the bible say that Abraham just tithed once and didn't tithe again?
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WordWolf
I'll play the "Oldiesman sidetracks the discussion" game.
Hebrews 7
"1For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
2To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
3Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.
4Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.
5And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law,"
According to Hebrews 7,
Abraham gave a tenth-
of the spoils-
returning from the slaughter of the kings.
According to Hebrews 7,
this is different from the Levites, who take a tenth "of the people according to the law."
Was this a one-time thing Abraham did, or did he do it all his life?
"9And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.
10For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him."
Looks like Abraham didn't pay tithes during the lifetime of Levi.
==============
What does the actual account say?
Genesis 14:
" 1And it came to pass in the days of Amraphel king of Shinar, Arioch king of Ellasar, Chedorlaomer king of Elam, and Tidal king of nations;
2That these made war with Bera king of Sodom, and with Birsha king of Gomorrah, Shinab king of Admah, and Shemeber king of Zeboiim, and the king of Bela, which is Zoar.
3All these were joined together in the vale of Siddim, which is the salt sea.
4Twelve years they served Chedorlaomer, and in the thirteenth year they rebelled.
5And in the fourteenth year came Chedorlaomer, and the kings that were with him, and smote the Rephaims in Ashteroth Karnaim, and the Zuzims in Ham, and the Emins in Shaveh Kiriathaim,
6And the Horites in their mount Seir, unto Elparan, which is by the wilderness.
7And they returned, and came to Enmishpat, which is Kadesh, and smote all the country of the Amalekites, and also the Amorites, that dwelt in Hazezontamar.
8And there went out the king of Sodom, and the king of Gomorrah, and the king of Admah, and the king of Zeboiim, and the king of Bela (the same is Zoar;) and they joined battle with them in the vale of Siddim;
9With Chedorlaomer the king of Elam, and with Tidal king of nations, and Amraphel king of Shinar, and Arioch king of Ellasar; four kings with five.
10And the vale of Siddim was full of slimepits; and the kings of Sodom and Gomorrah fled, and fell there; and they that remained fled to the mountain.
11And they took all the goods of Sodom and Gomorrah, and all their victuals, and went their way.
12And they took Lot, Abram's brother's son, who dwelt in Sodom, and his goods, and departed.
13And there came one that had escaped, and told Abram the Hebrew; for he dwelt in the plain of Mamre the Amorite, brother of Eshcol, and brother of Aner: and these were confederate with Abram.
14And when Abram heard that his brother was taken captive, he armed his trained servants, born in his own house, three hundred and eighteen, and pursued them unto Dan.
15And he divided himself against them, he and his servants, by night, and smote them, and pursued them unto Hobah, which is on the left hand of Damascus.
16And he brought back all the goods, and also brought again his brother Lot, and his goods, and the women also, and the people.
17And the king of Sodom went out to meet him after his return from the slaughter of Chedorlaomer, and of the kings that were with him, at the valley of Shaveh, which is the king's dale.
18And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.
19And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth:
20And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all."
Recapping in the closing verses,
"12And they took Lot, Abram's brother's son, who dwelt in Sodom, and his goods, and departed.
13And there came one that had escaped, and told Abram the Hebrew; for he dwelt in the plain of Mamre the Amorite, brother of Eshcol, and brother of Aner: and these were confederate with Abram.
14And when Abram heard that his brother was taken captive, he armed his trained servants, born in his own house, three hundred and eighteen, and pursued them unto Dan.
15And he divided himself against them, he and his servants, by night, and smote them, and pursued them unto Hobah, which is on the left hand of Damascus.
16And he brought back all the goods, and also brought again his brother Lot, and his goods, and the women also, and the people.
17And the king of Sodom went out to meet him after his return from the slaughter of Chedorlaomer, and of the kings that were with him, at the valley of Shaveh, which is the king's dale.
18And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.
19And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth:
20And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all."
Abraham tithed ONCE. To Melchizedek, of the spoils of war.
(NOT HIS INCOME.)
Abraham was called "The Friend of God."
YES, the Bible says Abraham tithed ONCE.
Find the SECOND TIME if you can find one.
Here's a hint: look for the word "tenth" or "tithe" in Abraham's lifetime.
Heck, throw in "firstfruits" just for fun.
If you find ANYTHING relevant to Abraham tithing
(which wasn't already mentioned), sing out.
Here's another hint: I already looked, and it's not there.
Abraham tithed ONCE. To Melchizedek, of the spoils of war,
not his income.
Oldies,
why did you ask this question when you have decades of training in how to
read the Bible, and understand it, and supposedly remember things more fairly
than the rest of us? Shouldn't you have found the results and returned to educate us
as to our failure to read and understand it correctly-
IF YOU COULD FIND AN ERROR?
Or was throwing a question into the discussion your goal?
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oldiesman
So your position is that because the bible doesn't say he tithed a second time, that means he didn't?
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Radar OReilly
Dear Alleycat,
I have been privately "reproved" for accusing you of stealing Catcup's avatar.
I appologize........"misappropriate," might be the more appropriate term.
Love You (even more,)
Radar
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WordWolf
Since Oldies hasn't the time or inclination (or both) to answer,
I'll fill in the blanks for you. If you think a moment, the answer will be crystal-clear.
Oldiesman left twi in the early 90s.
He claims his PARTICULAR twig/branch was pristine and he never had ANY of the
problems we saw. He claims the way things were in the 70s were always that way
until the day they kicked him out. He claims having his family in and all together
had no effect on any of that. He claims everything he ever got in writing represented
100% truth on matters, no matter what happened later. (Like the loy-alty letter.)
In fact, all the draconian policies-except for Oldies leaving-never happened,
no matter how many eyewitness accounts and audio clips say otherwise.
Now, then, Bowling for Soup covered an SR-71 song which I feel is relevant.
Here's the lyrics.
"Debbie just hit the wall, She never had it all
One prozac a day, Husband's a C.P.A.
Here dreams went out the door, Once she turned 24
Only been with one man. What happened to her plans?
She was gonna be an actress, She was gonna be a star
She was gonna shake that foot On the hood of Whitesnake's car
Now her SUV has become the enemy. Looks at her average life
Nothing has been alright... since
Bruce Springsteen, Madonna
Way before Nirvana there was U2
And Blondie and music still on MTV
Her 2 kids in high school
They tell her that she's uncool
Cause she's still preoccupied
With 19, 19, 1985.
She's seen all the classics at least a hundred times
Breakfast Club, Pretty in Pink, Fast Times At Ridgemont
She rocks out to Wham! Not a big Limp Bizkit fan
Never knew George was gay, Hoped they'd hook up one day
Where's her fairy tale, where's her dream? Where's the quarterback
From her high school football team?
Where's her fairy tale, where's her dream?
How many times will she ask herself What happened to me?
(the rubber broke) ... When
Bruce Springsteen, Madonna
Way before Nirvana there was U2
And Blondie and music still on MTV
Her 2 kids in high school
They tell her that she's uncool
Cause she's still preoccupied
With 19, 19, 1985.
She hates time / make it stop
When did Motley Crue become classic rock
She hates time / make it stop
Bruce Springsteen, Madonna
Way before Nirvana there was U2
And Blondie and music still on MTV
Her 2 kids in high school
They tell her that she's uncool
Cause she's still preoccupied
With 19, 19, 1985."
The relevance, I trust, is not lost on you.
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WordWolf
"Where the Word of God remains silent,
he that speaks is a fool." -victor paul wierwille.
In the absolute absence of ANY reference to him tithing,
what is your basis for saying he DID?
You're asserting-
or more accurately, going out of your way to IMPLY BUT FAIL TO ASSERT
that Abraham tithed.
Burden of Proof is on you to show any case for him tithing.
Otherwise,
you're as sensible as the people who claim space-aliens keep kidnapping
people and demand proof they are NOT.
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oldiesman
Wordwolf, it's Friday.
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WordWolf
*checks*
So it is.
July 28 and everything.
Almost New Moon.
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alleycat
Hi - of course I'm just getting my feet wet here. Hopefully this avatar is more suitable. I do love cats, have 4 right now!
Not at all sure if I am posting correctly, but I'll try. I have to agree mostly with Oldiesman for most of the posts I've seen.
Pertinent to this topic, I tithed and abundantly shared (15% of pretax) for the time that I was active in twi (which was 73-86) and felt blessed to do it and felt blessed with the results. Since then, I have given less to the mainstream church I was involved with for 10 years and felt blessed to do that. Recently, I have become involved with a large contemporary Christian church and have been so blessed by the Word taught there that I have once again begun to tithe, pre-tax. I wholeheartedly believe that regardless of what twi taught, tithing is laid out in the Bible as something that God desires of those who believe His word and want to be obedient to it.
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QuietThinker
Hi Alleycat :-)
I think it's good that you have found a way that giving has blessed you (regardless of location) and it sounds like you don't feel compelled. That is a horse of a different colour, I think.
cheers,
QT
P.S. I like your new avatar...looks like a cat I used to have, and makes me grin.
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Radar OReilly
Hi Alleycat!
I love your new avatar.......thanks for being so sweet about my "nasty" first post to you.
I agree with QT, giving to the charity of YOUR choice, any charity that you want to give to, how much you want to give to them is NOT what this thread is about.
This thread is about how twi turned a wonderful, godly principle in the bible into spiritual coercion, if not outright blackmail.
I am glad you have found away to continue giving and being blessed.......because God really loves a cheerful giver.
Radar
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GrouchoMarxJr
I'm still looking for a Levitical priest that I can give my tithe to...anybody see one lately?
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Sunnyfla
Hey Wordwolf........ My kids Love that song
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Lifted Up
This sounds like the responses I have heard wuite a number of times from different sides of both the political and religious spectrum, when courts make a decision that is unpopular with a particular side.
Of course I dont think there is anyone who will say that courts arent very wrong at times, but that is so much a matter of opinion...as is doctrine and also as are some other things. The good way to take care of this is given by Catcup early in that thread that sits at the top of the "About the Way" forum but is not posted too very much these days. Testimony from the people involved..."what happened to you?".
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