After getting myself M&A'd by the people who were supposed to love me etc etc blah blah and in deepest misery and depression and all alone (the tiny group of believers (?) had all left and gone to another city), I realised that I needed to find some thing or some one to care about. I prayed about this and a small black cat - now quite a large cat ("Twinky") - came my way.
After that, I needed a person to love and care about. A very kind, loving man came my way. He has been kind, honest, never says a negative, thoughtful, generous and giving without counting, and most of all uncondemnatory, to me and gave me a safe place where I could start to heal my seriously damaged thoughts. He doesn't believe and thinks God is - well, he doesn't think of God at all. He doesn't believe the things I do but let me talk to him a little about them anyway. He's all the things that Ephesians says believers ought to be to one another. At such a desperate time in my life, without his kindness I probably would be in need of psychiatric treatment.
It's just how he is. It's innate, not manifesting from the love of God in his life.
But he's all the things that some so-called believers (some of them in great particular) are not.
It troubles me that someone so kind, thoughtful and considerate, whom many believers could learn much from in practical ways, is excluded from the kingdom of heaven - and so many selfish, rude, lying, hurtful people get in (not many rewards when they get there, perhaps).
We don't get into heaven by works. He hasn't confessed Jesus as lord in his life - after looking at some negative internet press about TWI and also stuff about other religions (eg, the RC child abuse scandals), he has backed off completely and truly does not want to know. Works is all he has, but they are from a good and loving heart.
Don't know what to think about this - just know God makes rules but is not unfair.
Its a tough one and one I've thought about over the years. Here's kind of what I've come up with - for me.
I know that those who will enter into heaven must be a new creation. The coming new Heaven and earth is home to the new creation (we know not know what we shall be, but it shall be revealed, as our true life is currently hid in Christ, and our true life shall be revealed at his return), which is what we become when we are born again. That is why it is grace that we will be able to be with and in God and in his perfection.
God loves all mankind and sent his Son to offer the invitation to come, enter into his love, perfection, perfect love and the heavens with him eternally - to enter into his coming kingdom. Those who are nice and wonderful and do good works, of which there are many, but who consciously reject Christ and his offer to be an inhabitant of the coming new earth and heaven and to abide with him, will receive the desire of their hearts - which is, to not be with him. God cannot override someone's will and make him accept the invitation. Maybe yes, to our sense knowledge on this material plane, it does not seem fair, but it is, because one has free will to decide - to accept or reject.
Works and niceness have nothing to do with our entrance into God. No man can ever be holy enough to stand in God's presence by his works. Ever. That is why Christ did it for us and brings us with him into heaven. Christ is our entrance.
That does not mean, as a Christian we don't do good works ourselves. On the contrary, because we have this grace, mercy and an entrance made for us into God's Kingdom, we should do all in our power to make people around us blessed - which includes good works.
Christ stands at the door of each person and knocks. If one answers and opens it and invites him in, he becomes a new creation. Note, Christ does not kick the door down and demand entrance, it is the individual who must invite him in.
If your friend has heard about Christ, and the salvation that is available from the wrath to come and the invitation to dwell with God through eternity as a new creation, that is his choice. it may sadden you he does not want to accept this invitation. Thus, it seems, unfair. But it is not, it is his choice. Christ knocked, he has refused him entrance.
Our planet and universe, pre-Gen. 1.1, was perfect. It became ruined. God is in the process of restoration - legally - back to that perfection. We on earth are a fallen race - separated from God. We are as guests in someone's house, while the owner has stepped out for awhile, and we have trashed it. The coming wrath (of which we are saved from) will be the cleaning and restoration. That's why it is grace we have been invited back, to be fully connected and restored as a new creation.
I also know, those who have not heard of Christ, shall be judged on their hearts and works.
There's a beautiful passage in Romans that deals with God not being a respector of persons. Let's see.......Romans 2:10 starts what I'm thinking of. Paul speaks of how the Jews and Gentiles will be judged according to their works. Verse 13 says that its not the hearers of the law that shall be just before God, but the doers.
So, say a man (Twinky's friend) heard some horrendous things that were done in the name of Christianity. And he says, "If this is what being a Christian is all about, I don't want anything to do with it!" I don't see how that is rejecting Christ. I see it as rejecting man made theology. But even if he did reject Christ, doesn't Romans 2 still apply to him? (LOL! Twinky, is he going to mind being the subject of some posts?)
I thinks that good works are very important in any relationship..In particular would want someone who shares the same compassion for people, in the fine art of living. That Divine design is not a one shoe fits all. I think that the marriage relationship is a union of christian principles.....there should be some factor that gives that marriage glue...
A very interesting thread, Kit and very interesting posts by all! I've thought about this every once and awhile - especially in regards to the two great commandments: love God and love your neighbor. There's a lot of people out there who live by that simple creed....And it was our Lord who simplified the entire Old Testament laws - [wasn't it like something over 600?] down to just 2 - love God and love your neighbor....So - to answer your question I would say the Lord is very interested in man doing good works.
How can God expect people to look around at life and people and see that Christianity is the only clear true wonderful path? And Christians the only worthy people? Are people just supposed to 'know'? It seems to be set up for people to fail. Or maybe some people are favored and given some kind of sign, like Paul?
Even in the Christian Church there are disagreements about who gets into heaven and who doesn't, there is no one definitive Christian doctrine. There is only what makes sense to you the individual, and what you accept to be true. So why does one person or one group have more say about Salvation, heaven etc?
Maybe a wise god understands that humans can't know everything about spiritual matters.
Most of the worst people I've ever known were 'new creations.' Their super duper new creation getting them into heaven is disgusting to me, and not a doctrine I will ever again believe in.
Different if someone has never heard or had the opportunity to hear.
It does make me wonder sometimes when "heard" really is "heard" ie to the point of understanding and really making a decision, rather than just accepting a sort of community status quo. It probably took some of us here on GSC a long time to make up our minds before we truly made the decision for ourselves. We might even have gone to church as children.
Sometimes I think maybe he hasn't heard yet because the clutter and noise of "religion" is getting in the way. But then that clutter and noise was there for us, too, and we heard...
Eagle:
Yes, "the marriage relationship is a union of christian principles.....there should be some factor that gives that marriage glue" and that's what I want - and can't have with this man. I want that special ingredient (God) that will give marriage real zest; not just a marriage that's average (or even good, by worldly standards).
He even knows I'd marry him like a shot if he changed his thinking (got to admire him in a way; he also really wants to marry me but won't "pretend" just to get what he wants).
Bramble:
It's not set up for people to fail. God does not want us to fail, he wants us to be successful.
There are many ways to live a life full of good works on earth. Many religions teach such things. People who live by such tenets may have what they perceive as a peaceful and fulfilled life.
There are not many roads, in fact only one, that leads to a full and rewarding life with God and his son JC. They don't live in Chicago!
Well, I'll just keep praying for this nice man. He appears pleased to "dwell" with me (we don't live together) and one day perhaps he will see and hear - and do. Then he can carry on as before but get eternal rewards for it. No-brainer, really, but he thinks he will be losing something!
Because some are living wondrous examples of Christians who blaspheme with their lives does not tarnish the Christ.
The amazing faith Jesus recognized was not a Jew. It was a Cananite woman and a centurion soldier who were seeking healing for their child they loved beyond words who amazed Jesus by their faith (Bishop Jakes was talking about that this morning).
In my ventures into other churches I have found some of the same hypocricy of twi leaders, but also there are examples of those who have lived for Christ day in and day out with their whole being.
Billy Graham comes to mind because he has lived long living a Christian life, with appropriate fruits.
Brother Andrew also comes to mind, who in the 1950's was smuggling Bibles to people who could have them no other way. When they were stopped by a border guard he prayed, "Lord you have made blind eyes to see, now we ask you to make seeing eyes blind." The Lord answered his prayers then, and continues to do so. Brother Andrew's group, "Open Doors," continues to serve the suffering church.
This is an easy topic for me: Christians who really are Christians do exist. This is what the Lord is looking for in His people.
The difficult question is what about those who truly have "never heard."
I don't believe someone who has been abused and screamed by a leader professing Christianity has heard Christ or seen Christ. I believe a twi prisoner of the devil (or anyone who has seen a twisted presentation of Christianity) can only be judged for what he has seen.
I see no big difference in counting a Christian witness by vpw or by Madonna as exposure to Christ necessary to come under the judgment of "rejecting Christ."
This is a big question to me, and I am so glad that God is God, and who makes it to His blue heaven is his business.
Different if someone has never heard or had the opportunity to hear.
It does make me wonder sometimes when "heard" really is "heard" ie to the point of understanding and really making a decision, rather than just accepting a sort of community status quo. It probably took some of us here on GSC a long time to make up our minds before we truly made the decision for ourselves. We might even have gone to church as children.
Sometimes I think maybe he hasn't heard yet because the clutter and noise of "religion" is getting in the way. But then that clutter and noise was there for us, too, and we heard...
Bramble:
It's not set up for people to fail. God does not want us to fail, he wants us to be successful.
There are many ways to live a life full of good works on earth. Many religions teach such things. People who live by such tenets may have what they perceive as a peaceful and fulfilled life.
There are not many roads, in fact only one, that leads to a full and rewarding life with God and his son JC. They don't live in Chicago!
It is easier to see and believe that from an insider's perspective than from someone on the outside looking at Christianity.
Some how you heard through the noise, while other's haven't, so you must be rewarded for that, and other's punished? Because you( Christian's ) were somehow better and more ...what?
It sounds alot like LUCK.
The Christian God throws his one and only way into a storm and somehow people are supposed to catch as it flies by? Or risk eternal what have you? What if you catch the wrong one? Like TWI. Or one of the other hundreds of Christian doctrines. Or -gasp-, a non Christian one? Those folks are out of luck, made a bad coice, no eternityfor them...seems a little petty and unmerciful to me.
It's not like its a clear choice--Christians=good, non Christians=bad.
The difficult question is what about those who truly have "never heard."
I think VPW, yes, even he, said in PFAL but maybe somewhere else, that he didn't know about them but trusted in a merciful God.
We're not just talking about people in our day and time either. What about people like say Aborigines in Australia or native Americans deep in the Rockies or people in Japan - 1000 years ago? (I suggest these places only by way of example because I'm not aware of reports of early Christian missionaries reaching those places at that time.) Or more recent, or longer ago?
Presumably some of them were good by the standards of their time; some had an innate Godlike goodness; some were outright vile.
The Samaritan woman's example doesn't quite apply. She had some idea, but not correct (she "knew not" what she worshiped).
Glad I am not the one who has to decide.
Bramble:
For the avoidance of doubt, I am not making your point for you. You have had the opportunity to hear about JC meet his Father. You make your own decision and choose your own path, and believe what you want to believe. Not looking for a fight here.
Here is a hint: Just pretend everyone is a CHristian....Treat no one different, because of race, class or creed. Some I thought were Christian were the ones who stung the hardest.. As far a relationships goes..what can you live with..there is no cookie cutter..Im just waiting for it to come along..I have not preset a course..I just hope it doesnt hurt again..ouch...so this time, Im a little more leary..
I am not fighting twinky, just trying to say something about what I think and why. What looks simple and clear on one side of the fence may not look the same on the other.
It is written that there will be people in the millenimun(1000 years ) that will not Know Christ. yes "unbelievers ". they live and DIE while in the kingdom they will have babies and be all what mankind is today. they will be raised immortal at the return of Christ and have to chose to accept Jesus as LORD OR NOT at the judgement or even while on the third earth with us.
the story of the end times and our furture life everlasting is very very detailed and leaves no stone unturned , you sound interested it is a beautiful HOPE for all of mankind and truly what God wants for His children.
check out what John W. Schoenheit has written in His book titled "the Christian HOPE" The anchor of the soul.
it will answer all your querys and has the scripture as the standard of reference completly and wonderfully.
I find that it requires diligent effort to think no evil, to do good to them that persecute you, to let no corrupt communication proceed out of my mouth, to be ready to forgive, and slow to anger.
And the degradation of "the good works of man" in twi eyes, as well as the ignoring ignorance of the life of Jesus Christ on earth, did not acknowledge living in a kindly manner as of being important.
One twig in particular, a nice lady taught and during her teaching mentioned that her husband, though not a twi "member/follower" (whatever we called it back then), was a good man, treated her nice, provided for her and her children, was a good father and a good husband. One of the "leaders" at the meeting ridiculed that statement, and no one disagreed with him.
I know a lot of woman who would love to have a husband who did those things. Still do.
Billy Graham and some Christians teach that living in a godly manner is part of being a Christian and it is very nice.
How is it in your world?
Again the book the christian hope by John S metioned above will cover this ideal of why we bother being good or bad or making good choices after we are born again.
Jesus will decide who will get rewards and PUNISHMENTS yes some will be dammed that have holy spirit for the works they have done on earth!!! God knows every hair on our head he remembers us greatly . and it DOES MATTER how we live today!!!!!
so any ways. KIT i love you you write great and never offend anyone and I would like to answer you about "my world"
I about give up hope my walk with the LORD has not been a easy trek by any means. sometimes I really feel it isnt worth it because all around me I run into trouble and strife and people who hate and well life!
then one day I read we cant change other people we can only change our own self.
how a nice little read that seems to be! it took probably twenty years of my life to hear it.
WE can not change anyone eles how the feel how they react how they live how they chose, we can only change our own self.
by changing my self I can change the world. one change from me forces change in another!
The world is full of negative situations and sadness and horrid circumstance , I can allow it to make me in the same boat or recognize the pain and find a way to be in it without it hurting me. How ? by knowing how much God loves me.
Now when I feel really angry and I do get angry I have problems I do with folks (not on grease spot) because i want them to believe different or do different. I recognize I need to be happy I need to be peaceful I need to be able to give and serve, for the LORD for them to ever want it different for their own life. So i take care of my own life, I pray I read scripture I remember I am NOT IN CONTROL of all that happens on this earth.
when i feel hurt or angry, i look within not without... not to Blame or shame me, I do know God loves me!
I look at why this is bothering, why am I feeling jealous why am I hurt why do I want to bring every single bad choice that jerk ever ever made and PROVE he/she is wrong?
because no matter how much I feel it isnt going to change him/her or what they feel or did to me .
so I do a deep check up of what IM truly thinking and why. withut shame knowing God loves me and is indeed the one who will help me.
if im impatient at the check out and I want to go I look around and see the people and how pretty they are I remember it is a job this person is doing for me , and IM thankful. the other day the lady could not get her act together it was 30 minutes with her and two others trying to "get it" and she was snippy and rude .. I was losing it and i kept trying to tell anyone who came behind me to go to another line to help them move on in the day.
I almost lost it but instead of lashing out I just turned around my back to her while she mused in ignorance for another 5 minutes... then I said ACCEPT the things you can not change, so I did and this young man came up to me and took me far far away from their and we got it resolved!!!!
so at my age i have seen enough pain for mankind I have seen enough misery I have seen enough of what we can do to hurt one another and I want out of it all. I lay it down for the LORD to take care of one day once and for all. It just isnt my fight anymore because frankly I do not want to be guilty of hurting another in any way. It does tend to come back around at ya !
hello?? any witness?
the Serenity Prayer
God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change!!!!!!
the courage to change the things I can. and the wisdom to know the difference.
Reinhola Niebuhr
by accepting the fact it is what it is I have found peace and that peace has allowed me the time to be able to think about what IM doing to "know the difference".
and when I need the same grace I pray some one Named Jesus Christ is there willing and ready to help me out and He has never ever failed me. I owe HIM, and the only way I can pay it forward is by trying without giving up to be there for some one eles! try peace because nothing eles really matters does it?
"Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven."
=========
Of course, the twi excuse is that the Gospels don't really count anymore.
Jesus' injunctions-which were written after Pentecost- were inapplicable
from the time they were written down!
So,
here's a quick look at an Epistle.
James 1:22-27.
But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.
Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world."
I recently had a situation with my neighbor, a 85 year old widow who is one of the nicest people you could ever hope to know, but also not a Jesus Christ person.
(Neighbor Ed is what prompted me to put these questions of my heart out here at the Greasespot Cafe.)
Ed had a situation come up that was getting him riled, and I was afraid it would hurt him. I explained it to him thus: "There are two spiritual forces in this world, one who does nothing but steal, kill and destroy, and the other, the God I try to serve, Who only blesses in multitude of ways."
"If you ask for stealing killing or destroying, then that spiritual force is the one who will answer. I, personally, don't have any inroad into getting that one to do anything for me. The only one who I have any inroad at all with is the one whose business is blessing and saving and helping. Therefore, only by praying prayers requesting blessings, savings, helpings can I keep going."
(I really hate those kinds of talks because when I tell someone else these great magnificent truths, sure enough they will come to haunt me, and I will be required to live by the words spoken.)
Oh well. Ce'st la amour.
I do think that the seeing Jesus face to face is required to be able to say "I have heard."
And that's why it's our job (as Christians) to show the face of Him instant in season and out of season.
Good points all, but I must take exception that those who are Christ's can be "damned" at his return for us and the clothing of our new body given to us by Christ.
We have already been judged - and forgiven, by what Christ did for us. You and I as God's children will not be going through a "judgment." That is why it is so important that we not use this grace as a license to sin.
Revelations - when the body of Christ appears in heaven at the 6th seal. John and the angel see the multitudes of every nation and tongue standing there in heaven - us. We have been washed, cleaned, covered, and our deserved judgment was paid for by Christ's death. There is nothing to suggest the gathered church in the 6th seal went through a judgment. Yes, there are rewards for standing in certain times and situations, as described in Churches in the beginning of Revelation.
But, there is therefore now NO condemnation to them that are in Christ.
Those brothers and sisters who christians so gleefully want to see "judged" and "get theirs" - I wonder about them, are they really born again, those who want it, do they really have a real relationship with Christ? I'm not talking book knowledge, which can make you think you've got a great relationship with him. I'm talking from the heart.
Who knows, as Christ said, there are many mansions in his Father's house. We will know soon enough, I think.
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Twinky
After getting myself M&A'd by the people who were supposed to love me etc etc blah blah and in deepest misery and depression and all alone (the tiny group of believers (?) had all left and gone to another city), I realised that I needed to find some thing or some one to care about. I prayed about this and a small black cat - now quite a large cat ("Twinky") - came my way.
After that, I needed a person to love and care about. A very kind, loving man came my way. He has been kind, honest, never says a negative, thoughtful, generous and giving without counting, and most of all uncondemnatory, to me and gave me a safe place where I could start to heal my seriously damaged thoughts. He doesn't believe and thinks God is - well, he doesn't think of God at all. He doesn't believe the things I do but let me talk to him a little about them anyway. He's all the things that Ephesians says believers ought to be to one another. At such a desperate time in my life, without his kindness I probably would be in need of psychiatric treatment.
It's just how he is. It's innate, not manifesting from the love of God in his life.
But he's all the things that some so-called believers (some of them in great particular) are not.
It troubles me that someone so kind, thoughtful and considerate, whom many believers could learn much from in practical ways, is excluded from the kingdom of heaven - and so many selfish, rude, lying, hurtful people get in (not many rewards when they get there, perhaps).
We don't get into heaven by works. He hasn't confessed Jesus as lord in his life - after looking at some negative internet press about TWI and also stuff about other religions (eg, the RC child abuse scandals), he has backed off completely and truly does not want to know. Works is all he has, but they are from a good and loving heart.
Don't know what to think about this - just know God makes rules but is not unfair.
Anybody out there who can offer any comment?
Kit: sorry, I've hijacked your topic somewhat.
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Sunesis
Its a tough one and one I've thought about over the years. Here's kind of what I've come up with - for me.
I know that those who will enter into heaven must be a new creation. The coming new Heaven and earth is home to the new creation (we know not know what we shall be, but it shall be revealed, as our true life is currently hid in Christ, and our true life shall be revealed at his return), which is what we become when we are born again. That is why it is grace that we will be able to be with and in God and in his perfection.
God loves all mankind and sent his Son to offer the invitation to come, enter into his love, perfection, perfect love and the heavens with him eternally - to enter into his coming kingdom. Those who are nice and wonderful and do good works, of which there are many, but who consciously reject Christ and his offer to be an inhabitant of the coming new earth and heaven and to abide with him, will receive the desire of their hearts - which is, to not be with him. God cannot override someone's will and make him accept the invitation. Maybe yes, to our sense knowledge on this material plane, it does not seem fair, but it is, because one has free will to decide - to accept or reject.
Works and niceness have nothing to do with our entrance into God. No man can ever be holy enough to stand in God's presence by his works. Ever. That is why Christ did it for us and brings us with him into heaven. Christ is our entrance.
That does not mean, as a Christian we don't do good works ourselves. On the contrary, because we have this grace, mercy and an entrance made for us into God's Kingdom, we should do all in our power to make people around us blessed - which includes good works.
Christ stands at the door of each person and knocks. If one answers and opens it and invites him in, he becomes a new creation. Note, Christ does not kick the door down and demand entrance, it is the individual who must invite him in.
If your friend has heard about Christ, and the salvation that is available from the wrath to come and the invitation to dwell with God through eternity as a new creation, that is his choice. it may sadden you he does not want to accept this invitation. Thus, it seems, unfair. But it is not, it is his choice. Christ knocked, he has refused him entrance.
Our planet and universe, pre-Gen. 1.1, was perfect. It became ruined. God is in the process of restoration - legally - back to that perfection. We on earth are a fallen race - separated from God. We are as guests in someone's house, while the owner has stepped out for awhile, and we have trashed it. The coming wrath (of which we are saved from) will be the cleaning and restoration. That's why it is grace we have been invited back, to be fully connected and restored as a new creation.
I also know, those who have not heard of Christ, shall be judged on their hearts and works.
Hope this makes sense!
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VeganXTC
There's a beautiful passage in Romans that deals with God not being a respector of persons. Let's see.......Romans 2:10 starts what I'm thinking of. Paul speaks of how the Jews and Gentiles will be judged according to their works. Verse 13 says that its not the hearers of the law that shall be just before God, but the doers.
So, say a man (Twinky's friend) heard some horrendous things that were done in the name of Christianity. And he says, "If this is what being a Christian is all about, I don't want anything to do with it!" I don't see how that is rejecting Christ. I see it as rejecting man made theology. But even if he did reject Christ, doesn't Romans 2 still apply to him? (LOL! Twinky, is he going to mind being the subject of some posts?)
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likeaneagle
I thinks that good works are very important in any relationship..In particular would want someone who shares the same compassion for people, in the fine art of living. That Divine design is not a one shoe fits all. I think that the marriage relationship is a union of christian principles.....there should be some factor that gives that marriage glue...
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T-Bone
A very interesting thread, Kit and very interesting posts by all! I've thought about this every once and awhile - especially in regards to the two great commandments: love God and love your neighbor. There's a lot of people out there who live by that simple creed....And it was our Lord who simplified the entire Old Testament laws - [wasn't it like something over 600?] down to just 2 - love God and love your neighbor....So - to answer your question I would say the Lord is very interested in man doing good works.
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Bramble
How can God expect people to look around at life and people and see that Christianity is the only clear true wonderful path? And Christians the only worthy people? Are people just supposed to 'know'? It seems to be set up for people to fail. Or maybe some people are favored and given some kind of sign, like Paul?
Even in the Christian Church there are disagreements about who gets into heaven and who doesn't, there is no one definitive Christian doctrine. There is only what makes sense to you the individual, and what you accept to be true. So why does one person or one group have more say about Salvation, heaven etc?
Maybe a wise god understands that humans can't know everything about spiritual matters.
Most of the worst people I've ever known were 'new creations.' Their super duper new creation getting them into heaven is disgusting to me, and not a doctrine I will ever again believe in.
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Twinky
Sunesis:
That's the way I see it, too.
I don't like it, but that's the way it is.
Different if someone has never heard or had the opportunity to hear.
It does make me wonder sometimes when "heard" really is "heard" ie to the point of understanding and really making a decision, rather than just accepting a sort of community status quo. It probably took some of us here on GSC a long time to make up our minds before we truly made the decision for ourselves. We might even have gone to church as children.
Sometimes I think maybe he hasn't heard yet because the clutter and noise of "religion" is getting in the way. But then that clutter and noise was there for us, too, and we heard...
Eagle:
Yes, "the marriage relationship is a union of christian principles.....there should be some factor that gives that marriage glue" and that's what I want - and can't have with this man. I want that special ingredient (God) that will give marriage real zest; not just a marriage that's average (or even good, by worldly standards).
He even knows I'd marry him like a shot if he changed his thinking (got to admire him in a way; he also really wants to marry me but won't "pretend" just to get what he wants).
Bramble:
It's not set up for people to fail. God does not want us to fail, he wants us to be successful.
There are many ways to live a life full of good works on earth. Many religions teach such things. People who live by such tenets may have what they perceive as a peaceful and fulfilled life.
There are not many roads, in fact only one, that leads to a full and rewarding life with God and his son JC. They don't live in Chicago!
Well, I'll just keep praying for this nice man. He appears pleased to "dwell" with me (we don't live together) and one day perhaps he will see and hear - and do. Then he can carry on as before but get eternal rewards for it. No-brainer, really, but he thinks he will be losing something!
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Kit Sober
Because some are living wondrous examples of Christians who blaspheme with their lives does not tarnish the Christ.
The amazing faith Jesus recognized was not a Jew. It was a Cananite woman and a centurion soldier who were seeking healing for their child they loved beyond words who amazed Jesus by their faith (Bishop Jakes was talking about that this morning).
In my ventures into other churches I have found some of the same hypocricy of twi leaders, but also there are examples of those who have lived for Christ day in and day out with their whole being.
Billy Graham comes to mind because he has lived long living a Christian life, with appropriate fruits.
Brother Andrew also comes to mind, who in the 1950's was smuggling Bibles to people who could have them no other way. When they were stopped by a border guard he prayed, "Lord you have made blind eyes to see, now we ask you to make seeing eyes blind." The Lord answered his prayers then, and continues to do so. Brother Andrew's group, "Open Doors," continues to serve the suffering church.
This is an easy topic for me: Christians who really are Christians do exist. This is what the Lord is looking for in His people.
The difficult question is what about those who truly have "never heard."
I don't believe someone who has been abused and screamed by a leader professing Christianity has heard Christ or seen Christ. I believe a twi prisoner of the devil (or anyone who has seen a twisted presentation of Christianity) can only be judged for what he has seen.
I see no big difference in counting a Christian witness by vpw or by Madonna as exposure to Christ necessary to come under the judgment of "rejecting Christ."
This is a big question to me, and I am so glad that God is God, and who makes it to His blue heaven is his business.
Hopefully,
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Bramble
It is easier to see and believe that from an insider's perspective than from someone on the outside looking at Christianity.
Some how you heard through the noise, while other's haven't, so you must be rewarded for that, and other's punished? Because you( Christian's ) were somehow better and more ...what?
It sounds alot like LUCK.
The Christian God throws his one and only way into a storm and somehow people are supposed to catch as it flies by? Or risk eternal what have you? What if you catch the wrong one? Like TWI. Or one of the other hundreds of Christian doctrines. Or -gasp-, a non Christian one? Those folks are out of luck, made a bad coice, no eternityfor them...seems a little petty and unmerciful to me.
It's not like its a clear choice--Christians=good, non Christians=bad.
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Twinky
I think VPW, yes, even he, said in PFAL but maybe somewhere else, that he didn't know about them but trusted in a merciful God.
We're not just talking about people in our day and time either. What about people like say Aborigines in Australia or native Americans deep in the Rockies or people in Japan - 1000 years ago? (I suggest these places only by way of example because I'm not aware of reports of early Christian missionaries reaching those places at that time.) Or more recent, or longer ago?
Presumably some of them were good by the standards of their time; some had an innate Godlike goodness; some were outright vile.
The Samaritan woman's example doesn't quite apply. She had some idea, but not correct (she "knew not" what she worshiped).
Glad I am not the one who has to decide.
Bramble:
For the avoidance of doubt, I am not making your point for you. You have had the opportunity to hear about JC meet his Father. You make your own decision and choose your own path, and believe what you want to believe. Not looking for a fight here.
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likeaneagle
Here is a hint: Just pretend everyone is a CHristian....Treat no one different, because of race, class or creed. Some I thought were Christian were the ones who stung the hardest.. As far a relationships goes..what can you live with..there is no cookie cutter..Im just waiting for it to come along..I have not preset a course..I just hope it doesnt hurt again..ouch...so this time, Im a little more leary..
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heartman
God Is LOVe---you just can't get aroound it!
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likeaneagle
Good point heartman....shucks..are you single?? :)
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Bramble
I am not fighting twinky, just trying to say something about what I think and why. What looks simple and clear on one side of the fence may not look the same on the other.
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Twinky
What does a Wolf want with a fieldmouse? Not a very filling breakfast!
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pond
It is written that there will be people in the millenimun(1000 years ) that will not Know Christ. yes "unbelievers ". they live and DIE while in the kingdom they will have babies and be all what mankind is today. they will be raised immortal at the return of Christ and have to chose to accept Jesus as LORD OR NOT at the judgement or even while on the third earth with us.
the story of the end times and our furture life everlasting is very very detailed and leaves no stone unturned , you sound interested it is a beautiful HOPE for all of mankind and truly what God wants for His children.
check out what John W. Schoenheit has written in His book titled "the Christian HOPE" The anchor of the soul.
it will answer all your querys and has the scripture as the standard of reference completly and wonderfully.
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pond
Again the book the christian hope by John S metioned above will cover this ideal of why we bother being good or bad or making good choices after we are born again.
Jesus will decide who will get rewards and PUNISHMENTS yes some will be dammed that have holy spirit for the works they have done on earth!!! God knows every hair on our head he remembers us greatly . and it DOES MATTER how we live today!!!!!
so any ways. KIT i love you you write great and never offend anyone and I would like to answer you about "my world"
I about give up hope my walk with the LORD has not been a easy trek by any means. sometimes I really feel it isnt worth it because all around me I run into trouble and strife and people who hate and well life!
then one day I read we cant change other people we can only change our own self.
how a nice little read that seems to be! it took probably twenty years of my life to hear it.
WE can not change anyone eles how the feel how they react how they live how they chose, we can only change our own self.
by changing my self I can change the world. one change from me forces change in another!
The world is full of negative situations and sadness and horrid circumstance , I can allow it to make me in the same boat or recognize the pain and find a way to be in it without it hurting me. How ? by knowing how much God loves me.
Now when I feel really angry and I do get angry I have problems I do with folks (not on grease spot) because i want them to believe different or do different. I recognize I need to be happy I need to be peaceful I need to be able to give and serve, for the LORD for them to ever want it different for their own life. So i take care of my own life, I pray I read scripture I remember I am NOT IN CONTROL of all that happens on this earth.
when i feel hurt or angry, i look within not without... not to Blame or shame me, I do know God loves me!
I look at why this is bothering, why am I feeling jealous why am I hurt why do I want to bring every single bad choice that jerk ever ever made and PROVE he/she is wrong?
because no matter how much I feel it isnt going to change him/her or what they feel or did to me .
so I do a deep check up of what IM truly thinking and why. withut shame knowing God loves me and is indeed the one who will help me.
if im impatient at the check out and I want to go I look around and see the people and how pretty they are I remember it is a job this person is doing for me , and IM thankful. the other day the lady could not get her act together it was 30 minutes with her and two others trying to "get it" and she was snippy and rude .. I was losing it and i kept trying to tell anyone who came behind me to go to another line to help them move on in the day.
I almost lost it but instead of lashing out I just turned around my back to her while she mused in ignorance for another 5 minutes... then I said ACCEPT the things you can not change, so I did and this young man came up to me and took me far far away from their and we got it resolved!!!!
so at my age i have seen enough pain for mankind I have seen enough misery I have seen enough of what we can do to hurt one another and I want out of it all. I lay it down for the LORD to take care of one day once and for all. It just isnt my fight anymore because frankly I do not want to be guilty of hurting another in any way. It does tend to come back around at ya !
hello?? any witness?
the Serenity Prayer
God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change!!!!!!
the courage to change the things I can. and the wisdom to know the difference.
Reinhola Niebuhr
by accepting the fact it is what it is I have found peace and that peace has allowed me the time to be able to think about what IM doing to "know the difference".
and when I need the same grace I pray some one Named Jesus Christ is there willing and ready to help me out and He has never ever failed me. I owe HIM, and the only way I can pay it forward is by trying without giving up to be there for some one eles! try peace because nothing eles really matters does it?
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WordWolf
Matthew 5:15-16.
"Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven."
=========
Of course, the twi excuse is that the Gospels don't really count anymore.
Jesus' injunctions-which were written after Pentecost- were inapplicable
from the time they were written down!
So,
here's a quick look at an Epistle.
James 1:22-27.
But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.
Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world."
Sounds like God really wants us to do stuff.
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Kit Sober
I recently had a situation with my neighbor, a 85 year old widow who is one of the nicest people you could ever hope to know, but also not a Jesus Christ person.
(Neighbor Ed is what prompted me to put these questions of my heart out here at the Greasespot Cafe.)
Ed had a situation come up that was getting him riled, and I was afraid it would hurt him. I explained it to him thus: "There are two spiritual forces in this world, one who does nothing but steal, kill and destroy, and the other, the God I try to serve, Who only blesses in multitude of ways."
"If you ask for stealing killing or destroying, then that spiritual force is the one who will answer. I, personally, don't have any inroad into getting that one to do anything for me. The only one who I have any inroad at all with is the one whose business is blessing and saving and helping. Therefore, only by praying prayers requesting blessings, savings, helpings can I keep going."
(I really hate those kinds of talks because when I tell someone else these great magnificent truths, sure enough they will come to haunt me, and I will be required to live by the words spoken.)
Oh well. Ce'st la amour.
I do think that the seeing Jesus face to face is required to be able to say "I have heard."
And that's why it's our job (as Christians) to show the face of Him instant in season and out of season.
Hoping (Not hope-full, but still hoping),
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Sunesis
Good points all, but I must take exception that those who are Christ's can be "damned" at his return for us and the clothing of our new body given to us by Christ.
We have already been judged - and forgiven, by what Christ did for us. You and I as God's children will not be going through a "judgment." That is why it is so important that we not use this grace as a license to sin.
Revelations - when the body of Christ appears in heaven at the 6th seal. John and the angel see the multitudes of every nation and tongue standing there in heaven - us. We have been washed, cleaned, covered, and our deserved judgment was paid for by Christ's death. There is nothing to suggest the gathered church in the 6th seal went through a judgment. Yes, there are rewards for standing in certain times and situations, as described in Churches in the beginning of Revelation.
But, there is therefore now NO condemnation to them that are in Christ.
Those brothers and sisters who christians so gleefully want to see "judged" and "get theirs" - I wonder about them, are they really born again, those who want it, do they really have a real relationship with Christ? I'm not talking book knowledge, which can make you think you've got a great relationship with him. I'm talking from the heart.
Who knows, as Christ said, there are many mansions in his Father's house. We will know soon enough, I think.
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