Dove - Your posts indicate that because YOU didn't experience it, IT did NOT happen. I don't see anyone NOT taking ownership for their decisions. I don't see anyone saying they didn't have choices. So, I guess I'm confused as to why you are trying to discredit the opinion of others? What do you have to gain by it?
I'm not picking at you - honest - but man, I don't get where you're coming from in your posts. You seem to have had a wonderful time in TWI - this isn't a dig, but WHY did you leave?
Again - I'm not picking or looking for a pi$$in' contest with you but I agree with the poster who thinks you're sounding a bit calloused and it's not really like you, from my experience.
Dove, this isn`t about having sex, or regrets, or how I should have been smarter, or more spiritual, or had better morals, or been more whatever, or about whatever was wrong with me that I didn`t know any better.
It is about the ministers in twi claiming to speak for God, ministers that we trusted with our spiritual lives..... using the lies in these teachings as their authority and weapon of choice in the coersion or manipulation of people into going against their own will and well being....in many cases doing great evil.
It was ugly, and it was wrong.
I do not believe that a genuine minister would treat a member(s) of his flock this way, much less a brother in Christ to his brother or sister.
I think that these teachings were what allowed the evil to operate unabated for so long.
Chas I have no desire to fight with you or anyone else, but I will fight for truth and honesty. I have many friends that went though the Family Corps it was hardley the hell hole that Rascal desires to paint it to be.
I'm not sure why you think that I felt that because YOU didn't experience it, IT did NOT happen. I think I said a few times that I never disputed that the records were true only that I could not validate them as such personally, This is the internet people post all kinds of things for a variety of reasons not everything you read here is true because it was posted ,we have seen other posts here turn out to be untrue because of personal anger, and other reasons. It is a anti way site I'd be foolish not to consider that the views just might be biased. What that means is we have words that I ,me ,Personally can not prove one way or another. On the other hand I do have my own experience that I do know is true which does not support those words. That does not make the records untrue either by any means, but as I have said before I've seen what has happened because of others words that were accepted. Rubin Carter and many others have sat wrongly in jail for a better part of their lives,because someone believed words about them, only because of DNA testing are they now free. Sorry but I will not pass judgment on people based on words on the web from people I don't know.
As far as anyone NOT taking ownership for their decisions, I guess we will agree to disagree. I don't know how to say it any clearer, the focal point of the way teaching starting with PFAL was The Word of God is Our Only Rule for Faith and Practice, that's the biblical standard by which we were to make judgments in our life. If we were taught wrong information our job was to check it with scripture. If we did not , I don't place the blame on the teacher, I say I should have done what I know to be true checked the scripture. It's like a little kid saying" he told me to do" it to justify why he threw a rock through a window when he knew better. If Rev so and so said to shoot yourself would we have done that also? To be told to beat your kids is as illogical, the alarms should have gone off and then we go back to the standard for truth. Jesus said the same thing "you error because you know not the scriptures" He set the standard he did not say oh you probably were just taught wrong or misinformed it's ok blame your teachers. They were taught wrong, but they also had the scriptures they could have not been in error and Jesus called them on it. I don't think he was being mean just truthful some in his time may have thought he was calloused. Each owns their own here the teachers who taught wrongly are accountable, if we failed to check teaching with scripture we are accountable. and if you did you say God I'm sorry I was taught to prove all things and I did not, thanks for your forgiveness. You may disagree, that's fine I just don't see anywhere where" he told me to do that" cuts any ice with God.
I'm confused as to why you are trying to discredit the opinion of others? What do you have to gain by it?
I have nothing to gain, not looking for gain ,only that truth is spoken. I'm equally confused why Rascal seems to want to discredit hundreds of people that had a different experience than she paints. It's a slap in the face you need to accept that your experience was not right it was really a torture dungeon there, you are just ill informed.
You seem to have had a wonderful time in TWI - this isn't a dig, but WHY did you leave?
I left because the trustee's of the Way had turned away from God and His Word, and had no desire to return to any sanity. They were clearly on a course of destruction, and hurt for God's people and if I stayed around I would be supporting the hurt to my spiritual family and eventually be drug down with their ungodliness. Scripture told me that My Fathers will was to do otherwise. So I did despite the personal consequences to my life they were irrelevant. They clearly were engaged in unscriptual actions.
Rascal I have no more to say I've said several times that if people taught wrongly or treated others wrongly they own that and are accountable for it. I've never disputed that with you.
I don't believe their actions in these isolated cases were due to doctrine. you could have taught them any doctrine you wanted or none at all. They still would be abusers because they have that within them they were abusive people that happened to be in the way they could have been abusive people that happened to be in the Catholic church or the Hari Krishna's. but they didn't they ended up here. They were not abusers because they twisted teachings they twisted teachings because the were abusers. That said I don't think it's fair for you to paint the picture you do with your wide brush.
In the first grade I had an abusive nun for a teacher. Several of us had to stand in the back of the class holding all the things from our desk, because she found a little letter that was used in our spelling cards in the desk. I cleaned my desk as told but it must have been in a book or something and fell out. So off we went for three days no recess standing all day , holding pounds of books if anything dropped during the three days another day for each offence. When I got home that night and my arms were cramping I told my parents why. Needless to say she was sent away - to a crazy house in fact never to return. The doctrine she believed was fine being clean and orderly but she was flawed and used it to be abusive. I don't blame the church for her actions it was not their teaching it was the misuse of that teaching by a flawed person.
and obviously you were responsible for the fact that you stood there for... how many days? it's unclear whether it was one or three... holding your belongings in your arms. that your arms hurt at the end of the day is clearly your own fault for doing as you were told.
and obviously you were responsible for the fact that you stood there for... how many days? it's unclear whether it was one or three... holding your belongings in your arms. that your arms hurt at the end of the day is clearly your own fault for doing as you were told.
Nice try Potato
At 6 I had no standard to compare her actions with, but you see as adults who did have a standard it is a little different story. You might wanna try thinking before you post.
Dove: You truly did stand up for the Word of God and that was no easy task. And although you are not seeking a pat on the back, I am giving you a cyber METAL of honor for being someone perhaps we all wish we could have been.
But in this thread, even though you are saying some truthful things. Things that most of us aspire to --
I wonder if your main goal is to fight with Rascal. Are you writing your posts with the love of God or some anger you have towards her personally? I don't know. As I read your stuff here, I want to say, "Adda Boy! someone out there gave it back to TWI in the form of it is written!"
At the same time, I am not seeing LOVE in your posts some rather a "get her" tone. And as long as we are standing up for the Word, well that is not right. And if your whole premise here is we all could stand up for what is right. We all could have said NO to wrong and spoken up for the word, then I do so now.
I love you Dove.
But With the exception of your last heat felt post
through this thread I think this has been forgotten:
If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.
Love is patient and kind; love is not jealous or boastful; it is not arrogant or rude. Love does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrong, but rejoices in the right. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
Love never ends; as for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. For our knowledge is imperfect and our prophecy is imperfect; but when the perfect comes, the imperfect will pass away. When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child; when I became a man, I gave up childish ways. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall understand fully, even as I have been fully understood. So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
I corinthians 13
I maybe wrong, but this is how it reads through the screen IMO
I think in the later years, after WhiteDove left, the "isolated events" he referred to earlier were not so isolated. In the later years, abusers found a home in TWI - a place where they could freely abuse without reproof or guilt. Where they could abuse and have that behavior condoned, if not praised. However, he does have a valid point. Not because we want to absolve leaders who twisted scriptures or abusers who hurt people, but because if we recognize our role, we are less likely to find ourselves in that role again.
Then WhiteDove said: "They were not abusers because they twisted teachings they twisted teachings because the were abusers. "
This too, I think is a very valid point. Those who abused did so because that is a part of who they were. They would have done so regardless of where they were. They would have justified it, regardless of what was taught. Likewise, those who did not - or perhaps those of us who attempted to follow the doctrine of abuse that was taught behind closed doors, but weren't abusers, did figure out the doctrine was crap. For some of us it took longer than others, but we did get it.
IF we can come to terms with why we allowed ourselves to follow these doctrines (and at least in my case it wasn't simply because I wanted to "do the Word") we can prevent ourselves from falling into a similar situation. In my case, it was because I didn't trust myself, my abilities, etc. I trusted man over what God, instinct, common sense (whatever you want to call it) was telling me.
That being said, I think Dot made an excellent point also, when she said: "However, we all have areas where we are not strong. I know someone who was sexually abused . . . . . . .The emotional damage and diminished self-esteem is almost irrepairable (except by God). And for me to say to a person such as that --"Why didn't you take a stand? Why didn't you say no? He did not hold a gun to your head? You had a choice!"
and
to vent some of the horror she experienced and it seems you keep shutting her right to vent down -- with scripture and an example of your strength. . . . . . I think she needs to talk about what happened so she can figure things out.
People do need to vent. To tell the story of the hurt they experienced, of the confusion, pain, humiliation, shock, etc. In talking about what happened, we often are able to eventually find a perspective that helps us understand and deal with what happened. To find a place where we are stronger.
But, if we shut them down before they get there, they may never get there - or at the very least it may take them longer to get there. Tp say "You didn't make the Word your own and that is why you experienced those thigs", is a slap in the face to may of us, regardless of the truth there may be in the statement, because most of us truly were trying to make the Word our own even if we didn't succeed in doing so. It really does make it harder to vent, find perspective, and heal.
For my own situation, I can now (some 6 plus years later) agree that I didn't make it my own. That I did put men before God, so to speak. But again, as I said earlier, it wasn't for a lack of desire, a lack of heart, or even a lack of effort. It wasn't even simply because I was "weak willed" across the board. There were a number of years when I did stand up to leadership - where I did say "THIS is what the Word says". But over time, I gave in to "group think". I allowed those I trusted to persuade me that I was wrong. I had self-esteem issues going into TWI and over the years, what self-esteem I did have going inm was slowly eroded away. And even that is a simplistic explanation.
Both sides of this issue have valid points. However, even if "You didn't make the Word your own" and/or "you didn't search the scriptures" is true - people need an opportunity to figure that out for themselves. If one goes to counseling, for example, a counselor listens, offers some empathy, and at proper times asks thought provoking questions. This allows the individual to come to the realizations they need to when they are ready too. One cannot force these realizations on others. Not only does it not work, but in inflicts more wounds.
You have a very good point about the guys who behaved this way being abusers any where.
The thing is though, that they were succored, encouraged and promoted in twi...shrug
I guess I would expect that if twi were a Godly place with Godly doctrines, these guys would have been delivered, or at the very least.....held to a Christian standard.
Instead they were given positions of authority over people.
They were able to inflict cruelty and abuse on people, and with the authority granted in this teaching.....able to intimidate/coerce/force people not only to accept their abuse, but in cases even inflict it on others...shrug
The idea that we should have made the word our own, goes without saying....
But to use this to assigne blame to the folks who got hurt instead of being properly scandalized because this was a common ministry wide doctrine ...ie obedience to leadership =obediance to God.... is suprising to me.
I/we who bought in to this teaching are more offensive and worthey of contempt and critisism than the leaders who actually granted themselves authority and misused scriptures to treat trusting people with cruelty is really suprising.
That it is ok to treat people badly because they were to stupid or foolish or cowardly to stand up seem like harshness is still condoned.
I just don`t believe that a genuine Christian or group behaves this way.
Dot to answer your question I don't dislike Rascal, I have no doubt that she is a fine person and I would be happy to help her in any way I could. What I don't like is the constant doctrinal rant that life in the way was abuse, rape torture, misery, pain, and anything else nasty that you can think of. This is a message board and she can speak her mind ,vent ,rant all she wants, I will exercise the same privilege that is extended to her. Clearly her experience and mine of a number of years is on opposite ends of the spectrum. Perhaps she has some unresolved issue that causes her to only see bad I don't know. We probably are the extremes in the mix with the truth somewhere in the middle. I never said that everyone's experience was a good one., but I can't support the view that all there was is abuse, rape, torture , and misery. I know too many that did not have that experience. Was it a picnic? of course not, as I said I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle.
This is a for the most part non way friendly site. we will never get to the honest middle if all we hear is rants on evil. I guess that's where my view comes in , to balance the perspective. Sorry but I know too many people that have lived the other side of the story to let someone re -write history. I'm willing to accept the bad I ask that others except the good. Due to the dynamics of this board I'm pretty sure that may never happen as those with axes to grind tend to congregate here and those without one don't. we will always be the minority. Just call me Mr. Fox News I'll always push for the fair and balanced view. It's a tough job but somebody's got to do it. It's insulting when someone only paints the picture of evil, abuse, rape, and all things bad when your experience is not, It would be equally insulting to those who experienced the other side of the spectrum to only acknowledge the good. All that I asked was to see each for what they are and as Abigail mentioned consider that maybe in all instances it was not doctrine that made these people do what they did, they may have just been that way regardless of where they ended up.
Rascal I never said That it is ok to treat people badly because they were to stupid or foolish or cowardly to stand up seem like harshness is still condoned. You continue to misquote me despite the fact that numerous times I have made that clear.
I said own your choices and move on, don't blame someone or something else for your choices in life. Personal responsibility is not foolishisness or cowardly quite the opposite really I'd say. It takes a quality person to say you know I made a choice, it was not so good maybe but I tried, it was my decision, so I'll live with it. Life goes on....... I don't need to look for someone else to blame for this.
A Bully always has a good sounding motive for harassment....shrug, that will never make it right or appropriate.
Whatever lable you apply to your motives, it doesn`t change the fact that you seem to like to stalk and bully because my perspective and experience differed from your own.
Clearly I offend you, my experiences in twi offend you, my perspective on the treatment people recieved in twi offends you.
Call me a liar, Call me a woosey for not standing up, Call me unspiritual, whatever. I am putting you on ignore so rant away.
At 6 I had no standard to compare her actions with, but you see as adults who did have a standard it is a little different story. You might wanna try thinking before you post.
thank you. I thought my post out very well and you gave me exactly the reply I would have expected from a thinking adult.
the flaw in what you continue to proclaim is that ALL adults are fully capable and remain capable in the face of the type of psychological attacks that they were subject to. there is no magic age that move a person beyond the innocence and trust of a child. everyone is different, some trust too much.
in a place that professes to be godly, the weak should NEVER come under attack. but in twi, it was encouraged and even mandated.
your experience was different, which is fine, but you come across as so incredibly judgemental and harsh toward those who were weaker than yourself. thank God that you could walk away. I was not the "head of the house" and I was afraid to try until I became too afraid not to.
how folks felt about the circumstances that surrounded them while involved with twi, came from many different perspectives.
I was also used and lied to and hurt BUT i walked away knowing where I went wrong in my own thinking in letting it happen the way it did.
i grew. if i could change what happened I would but alas we can not but we can LEARN and grow up to realize it is not about other people it often times includes the dynamics in our own head.
this is where healing happens.
we can not change other people,their attitudes or manner of communication.. we can change our own spin on what is being said and how important that information is to our person.
to continue to be vengeful and not allowing the understanding to happen in our life festers rage angry feelings and pure hate with which only those carrying such feelings can be harmed.
to find peace does not mean consenting to an evil it means to process a happening to the point we can live a life worthy of the happiness and peace and glory God desires for everyone.
Rascal just because a poster disagrees with your spin on what happened in the way does NOT mean they are a bully or in any manner attacking you on a personal level.
you often read like if it isnt about you then it is an attack and going to harm you. then you get real angry and threaten and ignore how adult is this type of communication?
Ok I'm weighing in here - just a little bit.......
When you have a ministry of thousands that spans years there will be lots of differences in what people see, do, and have happen to them.
I'm all for taking responsibility for my actions - Keeps me from being a victim. In fact, I have even asked for forgiveness even when I knew I wasn't wrong - because it brought about healing faster and I could take that kind of "hit."
Many people made bad decisions based on misinformation - call it manipulation, or cohersion, call it spiritual blindness - no matter. AT THE TIME some of these folks thought they were doing the right thing - others knew they were in the wrong - only each person can say where they were in that equation.
I know some bad things I did and said because I was acting on "an order" or a mandate. I still did it and I still have asked for forgiveness in as many situations as I have been given opportunity. I never saw any of the wrongs in TWI - or else I would have spoken out. When I did finally see some of the garbage that some clergy were doing - I stood up to them.
I have this way of thinking now....I do my best, own up to stuff regularly and let folks know when they are wrong.
Mental abuse and manipulation are powerful. The TWI I knew in the '70's was a LOT different than the TWI of the '90's and later. From what I hear, the changes were somewhat gradual. Think about the frog sitting in water that is slowly coming to a boil - by the time it realizes what's happening, its way too late - the damage is done. There are things in the "latter" TWI that I find unbelievable and intolerable because I got in in the late '70's and out in '89. Anyone who got in later was already getting in in that more legal atmosphere - so they got in once the water was already on the stove for a long long time - and I got worst from there.
Not saying that there weren't major wrongs in the '70's - there were - but the "loving" feeling of the '60's was still around - and we were all just wanting to be a bunch of kids bucking the religious system.
I'm not trying to say I don't see your side regarding taking responsibility for your own decisions, either. I feel guilt and remorse for hurting people at the direction of leadership. things were just wrong, wrong, wrong and if I can ever make the opportunity to heal a hurt that I caused, I will certainly take it.
the way I see it though, that is separate from dealing with the coercion and the aquired helplessness that comes with gradual vicitimization. it's taken family therapy for me and my kids to sort through it, because it pervaded our lives and prevented my children from developing normally.
I was a victim. there was a time when suicide seemed like the only way out, but I couldn't do it because it would leave my children without a protector. does it make me weak to consider suicide rather than flight? I think it just means I was opressed, abused, and and brainwashed to believe I had no choice. did I have a choice in reality? well sure I did. would reading the bible have given me the strength and knowledge to escape? sorry, in my case it would not.
I am angry at twi and at many people in it for what they did, starting at the very top of the food chain. can I forgive them? sure, if they have remorse. I have no reason to otherwise. I'll be angry until I'm not. in the meantime I'll continue to work through my issues because I want to be a good mom and someday a good wife, which means undoing most of what I've learned in life. in that process, the anger will likely subside because it's no longer important.
there was love in twi when I first got involved. eventually I saw very little, and it wasn't enough to help me through my particular circumstance because it was so overshadowed by the evil in leadership.
Whether it be spin or truth, Whether it be bullying or not all depends on ones point of view I guess, or whether you personally are consistantly on the recieving end of it....shrug
There seems to be nothing I can say that doesn`t offend.
My experiences, and my view point are still valid, even if it offensive from your perspective.
Shoot, start your own thread with your perspective and experiences, the things that you want to talk about instead of continually trying to find fault and discredit me personally rather than addressing the thought presented.
I will simply try to present my thoughts without the distraction of having to defend myself in the future.
my perspective on the treatment people recieved in twi offends you.
What offends me is your bent to make your view of a twi everyone's I can't remember the last time you even spoke somethiong neutral about the Way much less favorable. You continue to pull events from the 90's on and propound that all is evil because of those events. I've tried to meet you in the middle of the road I never disputed things got much worse in the later years, watching from afar I could see that. I also never said all was well in the 70s or 80s. But it certainly was not the place you tend to have us believe it was. Lots of poeple graduated from Rome City they did not beat their kids and no one else did either. You challenge my expperiance ,and yet I wonder what experiance at Rome City you speak from? I have family that lived there for a number of years they are fine no one is beaten, scared. or has a 2X4 sticking out of any part of their body. I agreed that many times the kids felt that they had too many bosses and it was at times confusing for them . If you want to discuss 90s events fine I can't speak to that , but don't try to tell me what I or others experianced in other years was not real.
the way I see it though, that is separate from dealing with the coercion and the aquired helplessness that comes with gradual vicitimization. it's taken family therapy for me and my kids to sort through it, because it pervaded our lives and prevented my children from developing normally.
Potato,
I apparently didn't say what I meant clearly. I was trying to say that I see both your side and Dove's side of the matter. I agree - sometimes a person truly is a victim of violence, cohersion, abuse, etc. The trick is always to move up and out of that to being a person in control of your life again. I sympathize with you ( I had some bad things happen to me) and I applaud your efforts to move ahead with your life.
the way I see it though, that is separate from dealing with the coercion and the aquired helplessness that comes with gradual vicitimization. it's taken family therapy for me and my kids to sort through it, because it pervaded our lives and prevented my children from developing normally.
Mental abuse and manipulation are powerful. The TWI I knew in the '70's was a LOT different than the TWI of the '90's and later. From what I hear, the changes were somewhat gradual. Think about the frog sitting in water that is slowly coming to a boil - by the time it realizes what's happening, its way too late - the damage is done.
Hope this explains that I see both sides of this issue.
Hey folks! We are people! - Supposed to be somewhat concerned for other human beings....Doesn't it say that if one member of the body is hurt that we all suffer? Anyone can clearly see that there is a lot of hurt on these pages.
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ChasUFarley
Dove - Your posts indicate that because YOU didn't experience it, IT did NOT happen. I don't see anyone NOT taking ownership for their decisions. I don't see anyone saying they didn't have choices. So, I guess I'm confused as to why you are trying to discredit the opinion of others? What do you have to gain by it?
I'm not picking at you - honest - but man, I don't get where you're coming from in your posts. You seem to have had a wonderful time in TWI - this isn't a dig, but WHY did you leave?
Again - I'm not picking or looking for a pi$$in' contest with you but I agree with the poster who thinks you're sounding a bit calloused and it's not really like you, from my experience.
Peace.
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rascal
Gosh this is frustrating.
Dove, this isn`t about having sex, or regrets, or how I should have been smarter, or more spiritual, or had better morals, or been more whatever, or about whatever was wrong with me that I didn`t know any better.
It is about the ministers in twi claiming to speak for God, ministers that we trusted with our spiritual lives..... using the lies in these teachings as their authority and weapon of choice in the coersion or manipulation of people into going against their own will and well being....in many cases doing great evil.
It was ugly, and it was wrong.
I do not believe that a genuine minister would treat a member(s) of his flock this way, much less a brother in Christ to his brother or sister.
I think that these teachings were what allowed the evil to operate unabated for so long.
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rascal
Folks, thanks for understanding.
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WhiteDove
Chas I have no desire to fight with you or anyone else, but I will fight for truth and honesty. I have many friends that went though the Family Corps it was hardley the hell hole that Rascal desires to paint it to be.
I'm not sure why you think that I felt that because YOU didn't experience it, IT did NOT happen. I think I said a few times that I never disputed that the records were true only that I could not validate them as such personally, This is the internet people post all kinds of things for a variety of reasons not everything you read here is true because it was posted ,we have seen other posts here turn out to be untrue because of personal anger, and other reasons. It is a anti way site I'd be foolish not to consider that the views just might be biased. What that means is we have words that I ,me ,Personally can not prove one way or another. On the other hand I do have my own experience that I do know is true which does not support those words. That does not make the records untrue either by any means, but as I have said before I've seen what has happened because of others words that were accepted. Rubin Carter and many others have sat wrongly in jail for a better part of their lives,because someone believed words about them, only because of DNA testing are they now free. Sorry but I will not pass judgment on people based on words on the web from people I don't know.
As far as anyone NOT taking ownership for their decisions, I guess we will agree to disagree. I don't know how to say it any clearer, the focal point of the way teaching starting with PFAL was The Word of God is Our Only Rule for Faith and Practice, that's the biblical standard by which we were to make judgments in our life. If we were taught wrong information our job was to check it with scripture. If we did not , I don't place the blame on the teacher, I say I should have done what I know to be true checked the scripture. It's like a little kid saying" he told me to do" it to justify why he threw a rock through a window when he knew better. If Rev so and so said to shoot yourself would we have done that also? To be told to beat your kids is as illogical, the alarms should have gone off and then we go back to the standard for truth. Jesus said the same thing "you error because you know not the scriptures" He set the standard he did not say oh you probably were just taught wrong or misinformed it's ok blame your teachers. They were taught wrong, but they also had the scriptures they could have not been in error and Jesus called them on it. I don't think he was being mean just truthful some in his time may have thought he was calloused. Each owns their own here the teachers who taught wrongly are accountable, if we failed to check teaching with scripture we are accountable. and if you did you say God I'm sorry I was taught to prove all things and I did not, thanks for your forgiveness. You may disagree, that's fine I just don't see anywhere where" he told me to do that" cuts any ice with God.
I have nothing to gain, not looking for gain ,only that truth is spoken. I'm equally confused why Rascal seems to want to discredit hundreds of people that had a different experience than she paints. It's a slap in the face you need to accept that your experience was not right it was really a torture dungeon there, you are just ill informed.I left because the trustee's of the Way had turned away from God and His Word, and had no desire to return to any sanity. They were clearly on a course of destruction, and hurt for God's people and if I stayed around I would be supporting the hurt to my spiritual family and eventually be drug down with their ungodliness. Scripture told me that My Fathers will was to do otherwise. So I did despite the personal consequences to my life they were irrelevant. They clearly were engaged in unscriptual actions.
Peace
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WhiteDove
Rascal I have no more to say I've said several times that if people taught wrongly or treated others wrongly they own that and are accountable for it. I've never disputed that with you.
I don't believe their actions in these isolated cases were due to doctrine. you could have taught them any doctrine you wanted or none at all. They still would be abusers because they have that within them they were abusive people that happened to be in the way they could have been abusive people that happened to be in the Catholic church or the Hari Krishna's. but they didn't they ended up here. They were not abusers because they twisted teachings they twisted teachings because the were abusers. That said I don't think it's fair for you to paint the picture you do with your wide brush.
In the first grade I had an abusive nun for a teacher. Several of us had to stand in the back of the class holding all the things from our desk, because she found a little letter that was used in our spelling cards in the desk. I cleaned my desk as told but it must have been in a book or something and fell out. So off we went for three days no recess standing all day , holding pounds of books if anything dropped during the three days another day for each offence. When I got home that night and my arms were cramping I told my parents why. Needless to say she was sent away - to a crazy house in fact never to return. The doctrine she believed was fine being clean and orderly but she was flawed and used it to be abusive. I don't blame the church for her actions it was not their teaching it was the misuse of that teaching by a flawed person.
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potato
and obviously you were responsible for the fact that you stood there for... how many days? it's unclear whether it was one or three... holding your belongings in your arms. that your arms hurt at the end of the day is clearly your own fault for doing as you were told.
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WhiteDove
Nice try Potato
At 6 I had no standard to compare her actions with, but you see as adults who did have a standard it is a little different story. You might wanna try thinking before you post.
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Dot Matrix
Okay folks, I leave this thread with this:
Dove: You truly did stand up for the Word of God and that was no easy task. And although you are not seeking a pat on the back, I am giving you a cyber METAL of honor for being someone perhaps we all wish we could have been.
But in this thread, even though you are saying some truthful things. Things that most of us aspire to --
I wonder if your main goal is to fight with Rascal. Are you writing your posts with the love of God or some anger you have towards her personally? I don't know. As I read your stuff here, I want to say, "Adda Boy! someone out there gave it back to TWI in the form of it is written!"
At the same time, I am not seeing LOVE in your posts some rather a "get her" tone. And as long as we are standing up for the Word, well that is not right. And if your whole premise here is we all could stand up for what is right. We all could have said NO to wrong and spoken up for the word, then I do so now.
I love you Dove.
But With the exception of your last heat felt post
through this thread I think this has been forgotten:
If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.
Love is patient and kind; love is not jealous or boastful; it is not arrogant or rude. Love does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrong, but rejoices in the right. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
Love never ends; as for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. For our knowledge is imperfect and our prophecy is imperfect; but when the perfect comes, the imperfect will pass away. When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child; when I became a man, I gave up childish ways. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall understand fully, even as I have been fully understood. So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
I corinthians 13
I maybe wrong, but this is how it reads through the screen IMO
edit for spelling
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krys
This sounds like "I don't like the message so I'm going to shoot the messenger".
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Abigail
I think in the later years, after WhiteDove left, the "isolated events" he referred to earlier were not so isolated. In the later years, abusers found a home in TWI - a place where they could freely abuse without reproof or guilt. Where they could abuse and have that behavior condoned, if not praised. However, he does have a valid point. Not because we want to absolve leaders who twisted scriptures or abusers who hurt people, but because if we recognize our role, we are less likely to find ourselves in that role again.
Then WhiteDove said: "They were not abusers because they twisted teachings they twisted teachings because the were abusers. "
This too, I think is a very valid point. Those who abused did so because that is a part of who they were. They would have done so regardless of where they were. They would have justified it, regardless of what was taught. Likewise, those who did not - or perhaps those of us who attempted to follow the doctrine of abuse that was taught behind closed doors, but weren't abusers, did figure out the doctrine was crap. For some of us it took longer than others, but we did get it.
IF we can come to terms with why we allowed ourselves to follow these doctrines (and at least in my case it wasn't simply because I wanted to "do the Word") we can prevent ourselves from falling into a similar situation. In my case, it was because I didn't trust myself, my abilities, etc. I trusted man over what God, instinct, common sense (whatever you want to call it) was telling me.
That being said, I think Dot made an excellent point also, when she said: "However, we all have areas where we are not strong. I know someone who was sexually abused . . . . . . .The emotional damage and diminished self-esteem is almost irrepairable (except by God). And for me to say to a person such as that --"Why didn't you take a stand? Why didn't you say no? He did not hold a gun to your head? You had a choice!"
and
to vent some of the horror she experienced and it seems you keep shutting her right to vent down -- with scripture and an example of your strength. . . . . . I think she needs to talk about what happened so she can figure things out.
People do need to vent. To tell the story of the hurt they experienced, of the confusion, pain, humiliation, shock, etc. In talking about what happened, we often are able to eventually find a perspective that helps us understand and deal with what happened. To find a place where we are stronger.
But, if we shut them down before they get there, they may never get there - or at the very least it may take them longer to get there. Tp say "You didn't make the Word your own and that is why you experienced those thigs", is a slap in the face to may of us, regardless of the truth there may be in the statement, because most of us truly were trying to make the Word our own even if we didn't succeed in doing so. It really does make it harder to vent, find perspective, and heal.
For my own situation, I can now (some 6 plus years later) agree that I didn't make it my own. That I did put men before God, so to speak. But again, as I said earlier, it wasn't for a lack of desire, a lack of heart, or even a lack of effort. It wasn't even simply because I was "weak willed" across the board. There were a number of years when I did stand up to leadership - where I did say "THIS is what the Word says". But over time, I gave in to "group think". I allowed those I trusted to persuade me that I was wrong. I had self-esteem issues going into TWI and over the years, what self-esteem I did have going inm was slowly eroded away. And even that is a simplistic explanation.
Both sides of this issue have valid points. However, even if "You didn't make the Word your own" and/or "you didn't search the scriptures" is true - people need an opportunity to figure that out for themselves. If one goes to counseling, for example, a counselor listens, offers some empathy, and at proper times asks thought provoking questions. This allows the individual to come to the realizations they need to when they are ready too. One cannot force these realizations on others. Not only does it not work, but in inflicts more wounds.
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rascal
You have a very good point about the guys who behaved this way being abusers any where.
The thing is though, that they were succored, encouraged and promoted in twi...shrug
I guess I would expect that if twi were a Godly place with Godly doctrines, these guys would have been delivered, or at the very least.....held to a Christian standard.
Instead they were given positions of authority over people.
They were able to inflict cruelty and abuse on people, and with the authority granted in this teaching.....able to intimidate/coerce/force people not only to accept their abuse, but in cases even inflict it on others...shrug
The fruit of twi is putrid....
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rascal
The idea that we should have made the word our own, goes without saying....
But to use this to assigne blame to the folks who got hurt instead of being properly scandalized because this was a common ministry wide doctrine ...ie obedience to leadership =obediance to God.... is suprising to me.
I/we who bought in to this teaching are more offensive and worthey of contempt and critisism than the leaders who actually granted themselves authority and misused scriptures to treat trusting people with cruelty is really suprising.
That it is ok to treat people badly because they were to stupid or foolish or cowardly to stand up seem like harshness is still condoned.
I just don`t believe that a genuine Christian or group behaves this way.
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WhiteDove
Dot to answer your question I don't dislike Rascal, I have no doubt that she is a fine person and I would be happy to help her in any way I could. What I don't like is the constant doctrinal rant that life in the way was abuse, rape torture, misery, pain, and anything else nasty that you can think of. This is a message board and she can speak her mind ,vent ,rant all she wants, I will exercise the same privilege that is extended to her. Clearly her experience and mine of a number of years is on opposite ends of the spectrum. Perhaps she has some unresolved issue that causes her to only see bad I don't know. We probably are the extremes in the mix with the truth somewhere in the middle. I never said that everyone's experience was a good one., but I can't support the view that all there was is abuse, rape, torture , and misery. I know too many that did not have that experience. Was it a picnic? of course not, as I said I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle.
This is a for the most part non way friendly site. we will never get to the honest middle if all we hear is rants on evil. I guess that's where my view comes in , to balance the perspective. Sorry but I know too many people that have lived the other side of the story to let someone re -write history. I'm willing to accept the bad I ask that others except the good. Due to the dynamics of this board I'm pretty sure that may never happen as those with axes to grind tend to congregate here and those without one don't. we will always be the minority. Just call me Mr. Fox News I'll always push for the fair and balanced view. It's a tough job but somebody's got to do it. It's insulting when someone only paints the picture of evil, abuse, rape, and all things bad when your experience is not, It would be equally insulting to those who experienced the other side of the spectrum to only acknowledge the good. All that I asked was to see each for what they are and as Abigail mentioned consider that maybe in all instances it was not doctrine that made these people do what they did, they may have just been that way regardless of where they ended up.
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WhiteDove
Rascal I never said That it is ok to treat people badly because they were to stupid or foolish or cowardly to stand up seem like harshness is still condoned. You continue to misquote me despite the fact that numerous times I have made that clear.
I said own your choices and move on, don't blame someone or something else for your choices in life. Personal responsibility is not foolishisness or cowardly quite the opposite really I'd say. It takes a quality person to say you know I made a choice, it was not so good maybe but I tried, it was my decision, so I'll live with it. Life goes on....... I don't need to look for someone else to blame for this.
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rascal
A Bully always has a good sounding motive for harassment....shrug, that will never make it right or appropriate.
Whatever lable you apply to your motives, it doesn`t change the fact that you seem to like to stalk and bully because my perspective and experience differed from your own.
Clearly I offend you, my experiences in twi offend you, my perspective on the treatment people recieved in twi offends you.
Call me a liar, Call me a woosey for not standing up, Call me unspiritual, whatever. I am putting you on ignore so rant away.
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coolchef
yeah right dove the word of god is the will of god etc only if you do it our way crapolla to them all
yeah right dove the word of god is the will of god etc only if you do it our way crapolla to them all
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potato
thank you. I thought my post out very well and you gave me exactly the reply I would have expected from a thinking adult.
the flaw in what you continue to proclaim is that ALL adults are fully capable and remain capable in the face of the type of psychological attacks that they were subject to. there is no magic age that move a person beyond the innocence and trust of a child. everyone is different, some trust too much.
in a place that professes to be godly, the weak should NEVER come under attack. but in twi, it was encouraged and even mandated.
your experience was different, which is fine, but you come across as so incredibly judgemental and harsh toward those who were weaker than yourself. thank God that you could walk away. I was not the "head of the house" and I was afraid to try until I became too afraid not to.
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pond
how folks felt about the circumstances that surrounded them while involved with twi, came from many different perspectives.
I was also used and lied to and hurt BUT i walked away knowing where I went wrong in my own thinking in letting it happen the way it did.
i grew. if i could change what happened I would but alas we can not but we can LEARN and grow up to realize it is not about other people it often times includes the dynamics in our own head.
this is where healing happens.
we can not change other people,their attitudes or manner of communication.. we can change our own spin on what is being said and how important that information is to our person.
to continue to be vengeful and not allowing the understanding to happen in our life festers rage angry feelings and pure hate with which only those carrying such feelings can be harmed.
to find peace does not mean consenting to an evil it means to process a happening to the point we can live a life worthy of the happiness and peace and glory God desires for everyone.
Rascal just because a poster disagrees with your spin on what happened in the way does NOT mean they are a bully or in any manner attacking you on a personal level.
you often read like if it isnt about you then it is an attack and going to harm you. then you get real angry and threaten and ignore how adult is this type of communication?
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doojable
Ok I'm weighing in here - just a little bit.......
When you have a ministry of thousands that spans years there will be lots of differences in what people see, do, and have happen to them.
I'm all for taking responsibility for my actions - Keeps me from being a victim. In fact, I have even asked for forgiveness even when I knew I wasn't wrong - because it brought about healing faster and I could take that kind of "hit."
Many people made bad decisions based on misinformation - call it manipulation, or cohersion, call it spiritual blindness - no matter. AT THE TIME some of these folks thought they were doing the right thing - others knew they were in the wrong - only each person can say where they were in that equation.
I know some bad things I did and said because I was acting on "an order" or a mandate. I still did it and I still have asked for forgiveness in as many situations as I have been given opportunity. I never saw any of the wrongs in TWI - or else I would have spoken out. When I did finally see some of the garbage that some clergy were doing - I stood up to them.
I have this way of thinking now....I do my best, own up to stuff regularly and let folks know when they are wrong.
Mental abuse and manipulation are powerful. The TWI I knew in the '70's was a LOT different than the TWI of the '90's and later. From what I hear, the changes were somewhat gradual. Think about the frog sitting in water that is slowly coming to a boil - by the time it realizes what's happening, its way too late - the damage is done. There are things in the "latter" TWI that I find unbelievable and intolerable because I got in in the late '70's and out in '89. Anyone who got in later was already getting in in that more legal atmosphere - so they got in once the water was already on the stove for a long long time - and I got worst from there.
Not saying that there weren't major wrongs in the '70's - there were - but the "loving" feeling of the '60's was still around - and we were all just wanting to be a bunch of kids bucking the religious system.
Ok - beat me up - I can take it.....
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potato
pond, doog and dove,
I'm not trying to say I don't see your side regarding taking responsibility for your own decisions, either. I feel guilt and remorse for hurting people at the direction of leadership. things were just wrong, wrong, wrong and if I can ever make the opportunity to heal a hurt that I caused, I will certainly take it.
the way I see it though, that is separate from dealing with the coercion and the aquired helplessness that comes with gradual vicitimization. it's taken family therapy for me and my kids to sort through it, because it pervaded our lives and prevented my children from developing normally.
I was a victim. there was a time when suicide seemed like the only way out, but I couldn't do it because it would leave my children without a protector. does it make me weak to consider suicide rather than flight? I think it just means I was opressed, abused, and and brainwashed to believe I had no choice. did I have a choice in reality? well sure I did. would reading the bible have given me the strength and knowledge to escape? sorry, in my case it would not.
I am angry at twi and at many people in it for what they did, starting at the very top of the food chain. can I forgive them? sure, if they have remorse. I have no reason to otherwise. I'll be angry until I'm not. in the meantime I'll continue to work through my issues because I want to be a good mom and someday a good wife, which means undoing most of what I've learned in life. in that process, the anger will likely subside because it's no longer important.
there was love in twi when I first got involved. eventually I saw very little, and it wasn't enough to help me through my particular circumstance because it was so overshadowed by the evil in leadership.
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rascal
Whether it be spin or truth, Whether it be bullying or not all depends on ones point of view I guess, or whether you personally are consistantly on the recieving end of it....shrug
There seems to be nothing I can say that doesn`t offend.
My experiences, and my view point are still valid, even if it offensive from your perspective.
Shoot, start your own thread with your perspective and experiences, the things that you want to talk about instead of continually trying to find fault and discredit me personally rather than addressing the thought presented.
I will simply try to present my thoughts without the distraction of having to defend myself in the future.
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WhiteDove
Clearly I offend you,
No
my experiences in twi offend you,
No
my perspective on the treatment people recieved in twi offends you.
What offends me is your bent to make your view of a twi everyone's I can't remember the last time you even spoke somethiong neutral about the Way much less favorable. You continue to pull events from the 90's on and propound that all is evil because of those events. I've tried to meet you in the middle of the road I never disputed things got much worse in the later years, watching from afar I could see that. I also never said all was well in the 70s or 80s. But it certainly was not the place you tend to have us believe it was. Lots of poeple graduated from Rome City they did not beat their kids and no one else did either. You challenge my expperiance ,and yet I wonder what experiance at Rome City you speak from? I have family that lived there for a number of years they are fine no one is beaten, scared. or has a 2X4 sticking out of any part of their body. I agreed that many times the kids felt that they had too many bosses and it was at times confusing for them . If you want to discuss 90s events fine I can't speak to that , but don't try to tell me what I or others experianced in other years was not real.
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doojable
Potato,
I apparently didn't say what I meant clearly. I was trying to say that I see both your side and Dove's side of the matter. I agree - sometimes a person truly is a victim of violence, cohersion, abuse, etc. The trick is always to move up and out of that to being a person in control of your life again. I sympathize with you ( I had some bad things happen to me) and I applaud your efforts to move ahead with your life.
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doojable
Mental abuse and manipulation are powerful. The TWI I knew in the '70's was a LOT different than the TWI of the '90's and later. From what I hear, the changes were somewhat gradual. Think about the frog sitting in water that is slowly coming to a boil - by the time it realizes what's happening, its way too late - the damage is done.
Hope this explains that I see both sides of this issue.
Hey folks! We are people! - Supposed to be somewhat concerned for other human beings....Doesn't it say that if one member of the body is hurt that we all suffer? Anyone can clearly see that there is a lot of hurt on these pages.
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