Try that one in Fellowlaborers. Be sure to set your alarm clock for 4 a.m. because that's about the time you will be awakened and informed that the MOG has received revelation that you are to leave the program immediately and never set foot in the state again."Thus saith the Lord."
I'm so confused about this fight and why you insist that people who are victimized are at fault for not knowing better than to let themselves be victimized. why, if that were the case, no woman would ever be beaten within an inch of her life, no woman would be raped, no one would get mugged or robbed because we'd all just know that the person asking for directions is a rapist or mugger or you'e know that abusive husband really wasn't the person he pretended to be when you married him.
the mind goes through some weird and amazing things to survive in situations like we've been in. hostages have been brought to regard their captors as their protectors by careful brainwashing. the mind is very susceptible under stress. abuse victims are brought to a point of believing they are at fault for the abuse. some feel so guilty and ashamed they kill themselves.
I also wonder why you were in a program that would kick someone out at 4am and order them to another state? or were you the very first person to be treated like that? if there were abuses being practiced, why were you even there, if you've had it together so completely that you never got tricked? or do you just recognize that it's all your own fault for allowing it to happen? I'm struggling to understand your point of view and I really can't.
Why, when someone points out how TWI leaders abused their trust in some manner, others pop up with variations on "Who forced you to do it?" and "Why didn't you check the scriptures?"?
I'll take that question my northern neighbor. Probably because of statements like this where people claim we were forced to do things. A logical response is really? who forced you and how did that happen? Was a spoon glued in your hand and were you hooked up to a machine that forced your hand in a downward motion beating your kid below......
We ignored every instinct, every rule of common sense and did that which was completely contrary to our own will and well being, ignoring the needs of our families in our earnest desire to be obedient to God
Not only were we forced to do that which we felt was wrong within the very fiber of our being.... I believe that we were taught to tune out the very voice of God.
I would dispute that we were forced to do anything, we had choices and we had scripture to keep us in line with truth. This is not some heavy research project here that takes a theologian to discern or that one would need a masters in Greek to figure out. Does God say I should beat my child? Gee a concordance and a cup of coffee and I think most could figure it out.
The point, however, is that TWI and its leaders abused their trust, and took advantage of people who bought into their lies.
Fine if that is the point stick to it don't drag stories of how we were forced to comply into it to bolster the claim. In the cases where this happened then those responsible own that and the wrong that goes with it . but that does not get us off the hook to do what we should have done either. It's two separate issues one they did wrong. two we now have a choice to do right or wrong according to the scriptures and what we were taught to do. No force a choice......
Your one time stroll through Rome city halls does not make you an authority on what was taught and what was inflicted on the participants of the family corps program.
I never said that it did or that was my basis for my beliefs there is more......
The accounts of abuse and cruelty, related by the mini corps survivors, as well as the parents that were there in the child abuse thread attest to the truthfullness of their accounts.
No it does not it is what it is their perspective you can say anything that does not make it truth. I can line up as many that would say otherwise you accept them as truth because you want to see it that way . And For the record I never said that they could not be true, that does not mean that the ministry forced or taught them to do such if it was, there are many reasons that could lead to that. You assume that because it happened, that the way must have taught it. And when faced with finding a record some tangible proof of that theory of course it is the return of the mysterious teaching that never was. I suppose anything you want to prove can be done with a theory like that. I suppose that I could say that the way never taught that we were to tithe either despite the recorded records and books. Oh yeah those aren't true yeah that's just what they said on paper, there was this mysterious teaching behind the scene that was the real story. No we were never taught to tithe. we all know what was really taught. Pretty lame when the written record says otherwise. The record of lack of teaching on child abuse is as clear as the record on tithing. I can accept both at face value and place the blame if any where it belongs on each individual if an abuser.
The problem is that the Word is not black and white. We all know that the scripture can be twisted to say whatever someone wants it to say. These leaders were given responsiblities to take care of God's people not Lord over them. Many of us just wanted to do God's will. It just took us a while to figure out we were being given the shaft by the ones we thought loved God. Glad we got out, and let the good times roll!
I'm so confused about this fight and why you insist that people who are victimized are at fault for not knowing better than to let themselves be victimized. why, if that were the case, no woman would ever be beaten within an inch of her life, no woman would be raped, no one would get mugged or robbed because we'd all just know that the person asking for directions is a rapist or mugger or you'e know that abusive husband really wasn't the person he pretended to be when you married him.
the mind goes through some weird and amazing things to survive in situations like we've been in. hostages have been brought to regard their captors as their protectors by careful brainwashing. the mind is very susceptible under stress. abuse victims are brought to a point of believing they are at fault for the abuse. some feel so guilty and ashamed they kill themselves.
I also wonder why you were in a program that would kick someone out at 4am and order them to another state? or were you the very first person to be treated like that? if there were abuses being practiced, why were you even there, if you've had it together so completely that you never got tricked? or do you just recognize that it's all your own fault for allowing it to happen? I'm struggling to understand your point of view and I really can't.
You may be struggling because you attributed a quote to me that Wasider said not me. I'll refer those questions to the poster.
As to this statement
I'm so confused about this fight and why you insist that people who are victimized are at fault for not knowing better than to let themselves be victimized. why, if that were the case, no woman would ever be beaten within an inch of her life, no woman would be raped, no one would get mugged or robbed because we'd all just know that the person asking for directions is a rapist or mugger or you're know that abusive husband really wasn't the person he pretended to be when you married him.
I never said people who are victimized are at fault what I said was when faced with wrong teaching we have a choice to accept it or a choice to search the scripture to see if it holds truth. Which has nothing to do with rapes, muggings wife abuse and whatever else you added in to the mix. As Christians which at the time we were. when faced with a doctrine that did not sound right we should have responded by saying, that sounds strange I think maybe I need to look at what the Bible says and see if that is true or not. That is what we were taught to do. It Is Written.
Now we are faced with two choices check the scriptures or don't check the scriptures. If we don't check the scriptures then that is a choice our choice and we honestly should own the results good or bad from our choice. If we do check the scriptures on the other hand then we get the results of that choice which would have been truth, and we would have seen that what was presented was not scriptural. You wrongly assumed that there is fault in this there is not ,only choices and consequences that go with the choice. that's the way life goes we all face the same choices every day. but when we make a decision and my bible says free will choice, then we need to own that choice good or bad results. In this case choosing to believe unscriptural words issued in a bad choice and various results none good I dare say. True the teacher may have mislead you (but isn't that they way it usually is in life, Rarely is the choice clear that would be too easy) But his misdirection does not force you to respond in more misdirection We have a bible to refer to to help us make the right choice. If one fails to consult the manual then the result is yours when it does not work. Thats life........
The problem is that the Word is not black and white. We all know that the scripture can be twisted to say whatever someone wants it to say. These leaders were given responsibilities to take care of God's people not Lord over them. Many of us just wanted to do God's will. It just took us a while to figure out we were being given the shaft by the ones we thought loved God. Glad we got out, and let the good times roll!
I tend to think it is, like I said this is not a major research project to figure out from scripture if God wants us to beat our children or anybody else for that matter with a two by four. I think most people could get it pretty quickly, of course one would have to put forth the effort to open the book and look. If there were any twisting going on it would be pretty quickly seen. Honestly it is a nice try playing the it could have been twisted card. But I'd be willing to bet that if a poll were taken of most Christians without even needing to check their Bibles most would be able I'd guess 90% would be able to tell you that beating your child was not scriptural. To imply that one could not know this because scripture could be twisted is ridiculous. Hell I'd bet most non Christians could figure out that the Bible does not promote beating your children. DUH........
old dog with all due respect i don't you know all the tricks but i think we were all tricked
That may well be Coolchef but if and where I was I accept responsibility for it. I was taught bettter, to check it with scripture. I won't pass on the responsibility to someone else for my lack of doing what I was taught to do. No one forced me to make the choice I did I could have made a different one.
Dove, from what I know of you, you are just a really nice guy that was sheltered from the evil of twi.
You weren`t corpes, I don`t think you were even a wow, I am not sure you ever even left town for any length of time to experience other parts of of twi in all of the time that you were involved ....shrug
You know only what things were like in your insulated little corner of twi. What affected you directly.
It is wrong for you to claim to know what was taught to the wow`s to the corpes and to family corpes at any given teaching or location or time frame.
There are plenty of people here who heard this teaching. There are folks that have corroborated that it came straight from vpw.
There are numerous first hand accounts given here of it being used to coerce/force people to do horrible ungodly things.
No YOU weren`t taught this...ok
No YOU weren`t beaten....ok
No YOU weren`t forced to beat a child....ok
No YOU wern`t forced to have an abortion.....ok
No YOu weren`t forced to m&a a family member.....ok
No YOU weren`t forced to sell your home.....with the enforcement of this doctrine.......alright.....I am glad that it did not happen to you.....
But that in no way negates that there are many of us who WERE forced to do things, terrible things against our will and better judgement in order to remain under the umbrella of God`s protection..
This was the doctrine used that made us sit quietly by without daring protest.
It was cruel, it was wrong. It happened in a ministry and at the hands of ministers that claimed to be working for God.
From the fruit exhibited, I think that THE lied, NOT the people, espescially the children who suffered so grievously at their hands.
Polar bear, I agree. The scriptures could be tortured to mean anything that the teacher wanted.....and if it didn`t sit right, we were always told the lack was in us or our understanding.
The good times are rolling for sure now!
Potato, I think that the fight is because if you don`t find a way to assigne blame the victim, you have to come to grips with the idea that the abuser whom you loved and trusted was not really who you believed that they were at all.
It is tough to find out that your trust was betrayed.
Mountain top, I agree....many indeed used their wealth to help and deliver, that was what made it all so confusing....but you had the guys at the top who were hiding behind the good hearted folks that were doing their best to help others.
I never said people who are victimized are at fault what I said was when faced with wrong teaching we have a choice to accept it or a choice to search the scripture to see if it holds truth.
strange that you assume that we did not.
I can see how the direction to beat a child, coming from a MOG after a period of indoctrination (like what I experienced first-hand) would seem both scriptural and spiritual, if the fear that your devil-possessed child would contaminate your family, turn on the rest of your children, and leave you at the mercy of Satan in the cold outside the "Household". I protected my child the best I could and I got out before he was a teenager or I might have been faced with the same choice, and having been worn down by constant accusations I might have made the wrong choice. others who had children with real psychological issues who needed real help would have had it so much worse, having the fault for their child's "devil possession" laid at their feet and the only redemption possible by getting rid of the problem.
I wonder if anyone ever took M fart-face's advice, and how they managed to live with themselves afterward.
the scriptural build-up to such "commandments" was logical and compelling, in case you were never subjected to them. if all of a sudden I was just directed up-front to do some of the things I was willing to do later, I wouldn't have stuck around, never mind if the bible said anything about it. the interpretation of biblical scripture varies so widely, if it was to be obvious to me what it meant, shouldn't it be to everyone? why so many interpretations and opinions if it's always so plain?
if you don`t find a way to assigne blame the victim, you have to come to grips with the idea that the abuser whom you loved and trusted was not really who you believed that they were at all.
bingo.
I believed in the party line that it was OUR ministry, we work for the glory of GOD blah blah blah, it was fun and great in the beginning, until they got their claws into me, went WOW, went into the WC, that was the end of my freedom to question even though we got kicked out. after that, 2 different FCs in 2 different areas, beloved of the MOG, and my ex made sure I never questioned again while the FCs (found out later) lined their own pockets by the labor of the innocent, people who truly loved God.
it took years to bring me near the point of death. it took about 3 years to get out. I could not read the bible because twi's interpretation was in every verse and I would never be able to escape if I went to the scriptures to find hope.
I am reading your posts. I have always found you to be a loving man with an abundance of courage.
Here is the thing IMO. Yes, we were told to always check the scriptures. But did you ever buck the very leaders telling you to always check the scriptures? Now, maybe you did as I said I have always found you to be loving and courageous. But not all were like you. And the corps took the courage out of many of us as we were drained of our guts on a regular basis.
I think YOU may be a different sort of a guy. Perhaps you have the backbone I wish I continued to have as I was being filleted. When I read your posts, I wish you were there, in the corps at Rome City. Perhaps you would have been exactly what they needed. A prophet type to stand up and really declare "IT is written"
As punked out and cowardly as this will sound on my behalf --- I wanted to be that person. I wanted to challange. Each time I did, and I did, I was called "on the carpet". I was punished. I was told to shut up, I was ridiculed to silence. Not something I am proud of. I wish I would have stood up and declared it is written.
I did to VP about the adultery/sex crimes stuff. I went to M Fort to speak with him about things that were not right. I went to John L$$N, I went to many of them. Thing is they were not willing to receive it.
So, that is when I should have seen although it was preached by many, it was observed by few -- and I should have left. I stayed too long many of us did.
But I waited for someone like you speak of, someone to stand up and tell Craig (or whomever) ENOUGH IS ENOUGH -- It is written... I tried and failed to be that person. Perhaps if you had been there you would have made a difference. I am sure you did on the field. Or maybe we would have been friends and talked about how we tried to change things but couldn't.
Yeah, we are each responsible before God on how far we allowed things to go. Knowing something was not right but continuing down the path... And they are resposible for taking us down a path they knew to be wrong.
Many judged Mrs VP for staying with VP and for giving up seeing her kids etc. But many people gave their kids over to bullsh 1t. She is just one of many.
I spoke the scriptures when P@t POW**L was twisting "abundant sharing" He screamed me down at a corps meeting making me a joke. I didn't care. I was embarressed but wht I said was truth. That was the LAST corps meeting or WAY meeting I ever attended. I knew they were the joke and they were wrong. I also knew I could not change them. So, I changed me. Somewhere these "leaders" stopped preaching God's word and began to teach crap. I stopped eating crap. God's love tasted different then crap and I missed it.
Now to hear from those kids is horrible. I am sorry I did not walk on stage and say what I felt in my heart.
I don't think this is really about WhiteDove blaming the victim. Perhaps it is symantics.
Take force and replace it with coerced. No, no one took anyone by the hand and forced them physically to beat kids. No one physically took a pregnant woman by the hand and physically made her sign the medical papers to have an abortion, forced her legs in the sterups etc. yadda yadda yadda
People were coerced though. Of course, a synonym of coerced is forced.
I was far from sheltered from the Way dear, I've tried to avoid talking about myself but since you seem to want to for me I suppose I will. I guess since my dear friend EX10 divulged some things about me awhile back on another thread you seem to believe you are an authority on my life and what I know and don't. Here's a clue you aren't.......
First I was in the Corps and although I married into the Corps I definitely took it to heart to participate in the program and serve as well as any Corps did. I know it is fashionable to view those who did not go through in residence training as a lesser Corps. I dealt with that as many Corps spouses have while The Way. And I guess It seems you want to see that I do again, after all these years. In fact I had a long talk with Jonny T about that subject as I was aware of that attitude before I got married. You may remember that he was honorary Corps himself. He gave me some good advice many years ago, he told me if I ever had someone cop that attitude to just look them straight in the eye and remind them that everyone was in the Corps because of God's grace. It was by His mercy and grace that they had made it this far in life. I guess that pretty much puts us all on equal footing he said. Don't even try to make me question my understanding or commitment to the Way Corps principles. He also said if I ever needed for him to have a talk with someone that he would be happy to do that. Do I need to?
Second I was married to a 3rd family Corps grad who lived at Rome City for many years. My step son Victor yes named after Dr Wierwille was a mini Corps there also for three years. My wife on occasion cut VPW hair and gave him manicures he knew Victor from his birth. His father was on staff there as well for many years. So I do have some idea what went on there. Victor spent summers there even after we had left the Way into the 90s.
You know only what things were like in your insulated little corner of twi. What affected you directly.
Third you have no idea what I know or don't don't assume you do!
Fourth I have spent many hours reading through Corps notes, tapes and talking with and working with many Way Corps brothers and sisters. As I said I'd be happy to discuss what was taught and not with you anytime you want to. You might want to refresh your memory if you ever did read it in the first place sometimes I wonder? I've worked at most of the root locals at one time or another. and attended too many Corps meetings.
Fifth I have a good report among my peers and former leadership. I have worked along side of many for years from T Cr*b to R*ss Tr*cy to J. T*wnsend and many others. while I am embarrassed to discuss this they would be happy to speak to my caliber and service if you would like to inquire I'm sure.
Sixth I worked at the Way C of E for almost a year along side the Corps when they bought the place in 74. I ate slept ,and worked with them and attended some Corps night long before I was in the Corps household. There is a load of furniture at the Way Int. because I sent it there on the WAY Semi truck which included the executive desks that Howard and Craig used although I'm sure later they had new ones. I sent items to the Way Credit Union working with Ann*l** Sc*pur*
So you see for years I have worked with been exposed to and picked the brains of Way Corps I also sponsored a few along the way. As I said I took my responsibility to the Way Corps very seriously. And still do for that matter to the best of my ability attempt to. So before you lecture me on what I know and don't perhaps you need to look at your own life and what has become of your commitment. What makes you such an authority on Rome City? I never laid claim to know everything about the Way Corps nor the WOW program ever your assumption. Anytime you want to debate what was taught I'm right here waiting. I'm sorry you choose to resort to personal attacks rather than prove your point I thought better of you.
Mat 18:1 At that time the disciples came to Jesus, saying, "Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?"
Mat 18:2 And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them,
Mat 18:3 and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 18:4 Whoever humbles himself like this child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 18:5 "Whoever receives one such child in my name receives me;
Mat 18:6 but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened round his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.
There are many who became like children in TWI. Just as nobody would blame or, in fact, affix any sort of responsibility to a teenage boy (even a 16, 17, or 18 year old) who was sexually abused by a homosexual Catholic priest, it is inappropriate, in my opinion, to affix any sort of responsibility to those who were spiritually abused by twi leadership.
I am not saying that a person bears no responsibility to check the scriptures for him or herself, but, scripturally, the responisbility for abuse lays squarely and solely with those charged with pastoring, not with those pastored.
I was in the Corps and although I married into the Corps I definitely took it to heart to participate in the program and serve as well as any Corps did. I know it is fashionable to view those who did not go through in residence training as a lesser Corps.
Doesn't have a thing to do with "lesser" anything. You never went through two years of in-residence Corps indoctrination, so you don't have the experiences of those who did. You also don't have other experiences of other people. That you lack experiences that others report does not invalidate their experiences. I think that's what Rascal was getting at.
You do sound as though you held dear to "It is written" but you seem to be kind of judging those that were in the corps long after 1974. Perhaps in your portion (time frame) of the corps, leadership still rubbed elbows with you and were kind. They may have listened to you. I was also around in the early days and worked moving the word before corps ever got there. It was a wonderful life!
I regularly saw people like V!nce F etc and worked on limb staff.
I was over some corps being on staff (in my appointed area) so I was involved on a daily basis.
But nothing like those great early days EVER happened once I went in rez. Nothing. Things had soured. There was an almost cast system in place. And although I knew R@lph he would not even say hello in the hallway.
Later he told me that he was told if he spoke to any of us either WE would be tossed out or he would -- I forget which.
AT HQS. although VF and I had laughs on the field -- you would have thought I was walking posion ivy when I approached him.
So Dove, although your history is in the early roots and impressive, the corps you speak of -- and the corps I was in years later were completely different. And then those that came after me were even in a worse state from all the communications I have read.
So, back in the day I was also HEARD. I taught and shared the stage with an impressive line up. But by the time I got into the corps it bore no resemblance to the wonderland of working together I had previously experienced.
IT is unfortunate that we know what we have lived and we can learn from others about what they lived, but never REALLY live their lives.
You were around and in glory in the glory years. I know those years.
They were not a reflection of the years to come.
So, albeit TRUTH what you are saying and your truth of what you have lived, it may not be many of the other posters truth.
For instance, my truth is that VPW walked around with a woody looking for young girls to plug.
But there are people here who did not experience that. Does that invalidate my truth? No.
OR there are posters here who wanted to sleep with Craig or service VPW -- for whatever reason they saw it as a privilege. I cannot take away or remake their memories and convince them that VP and Craig were charlatans.
So, from your perspective it seems (as was my perspective in the early years) that all leaders were accessible. And that most would HEAR you. But things changed. Woman were once ordained. That changed. Once I was able to walk up to anyone and speak, that changed as well. And if you were not there at that time – it is hard to believe how difficult and crazy it became.
I think in some of your posts they may come across hard on people. And so the natural response is “you were not there.” And you have shown us you were VERY involved. You walked the walk. You were heard and listen to “great men” at that time.
But that is not the experience of some of the other people. Surely being as bold and reasonable as I can see from your record, you can understand that can’t you?
I know the time period of which you speak. I also know the time period from which some others are sharing. And there is a period of which I have no knowledge. Those that came in under Craig and never knew VPW. Or never took PFAL but Craig’s class.
I think the perspectives here are from different TWI experiences in different eras (or even areas).
Cathy and you are both right from your different vantage points. It is just those vantage points are now heated and seem as though “it was this way” “no, it was this way” rather than a discussion of “How was it for you?”
The years and changes in leadership made people’s experiences very different at times.
One person has a family member known to be passed around with pleasure so that posters’ perspective is always that the sexual attention was a desired feature in most TWI women. He has not been able to get passed his era and his perspective. ‘Cause that is his truth.
Can you guys see what I am saying?
Depending on the year and situation -- you are both correct. Neither is lying or distorting facts. IT is not a toe to toe battle where one is lying and one is not. You are both correct.
We had a corps guy sick as he11. And the LEADER announced that if you were too sick to come to meetings/classes you were too sick to eat.
So, this guy was in bed for three days. He was not given juice TLC, soup anything.
Now that policy was probably not the experience of many. But it was what he and I lived through.
I went into the kitchen and took fruit then snuck it up to him. I called Mrs. VPW and she sent a car over to get him and took him into her home to nurse him. Turns out he was VERY ill.
The point being, in the early days this probably would be an event nobody would ever see as possibly happening.
I believe Dove's posts about what he was able to do. I believe Cathy's and the mini corps. Can't we see that it just waxed worse and worse?
It's totally a different set of rules when twi operates BEHIND CLOSED DOORS.....i.e. inresidence corps program / mog-whorship mentality / motorcoach-manuevering / corps peer pressure / corps sponsorship commitments to uphold / etc.
Sure...........I could have walked away at the first sign of VPW twisting the scriptures. Sure.........all of us, could have/ should have done things differently. Hindsight, ya know.
Was there a one-shoe-fits-all experience for all of us? NO.
Was the perfect time to exit twi during the mass exodus. NO.......some had to wait for the right conditions to align for spouse/family/ and all.
Even the Research Team abandoned wierwille in the early 80s. Guess they saw that wierwille's agendas were "off the Word."
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coolchef
old dog with all due respect i don't you know all the tricks but i think we were all tricked
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potato
I'm so confused about this fight and why you insist that people who are victimized are at fault for not knowing better than to let themselves be victimized. why, if that were the case, no woman would ever be beaten within an inch of her life, no woman would be raped, no one would get mugged or robbed because we'd all just know that the person asking for directions is a rapist or mugger or you'e know that abusive husband really wasn't the person he pretended to be when you married him.
the mind goes through some weird and amazing things to survive in situations like we've been in. hostages have been brought to regard their captors as their protectors by careful brainwashing. the mind is very susceptible under stress. abuse victims are brought to a point of believing they are at fault for the abuse. some feel so guilty and ashamed they kill themselves.
I also wonder why you were in a program that would kick someone out at 4am and order them to another state? or were you the very first person to be treated like that? if there were abuses being practiced, why were you even there, if you've had it together so completely that you never got tricked? or do you just recognize that it's all your own fault for allowing it to happen? I'm struggling to understand your point of view and I really can't.
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WhiteDove
I'll take that question my northern neighbor. Probably because of statements like this where people claim we were forced to do things. A logical response is really? who forced you and how did that happen? Was a spoon glued in your hand and were you hooked up to a machine that forced your hand in a downward motion beating your kid below......
I would dispute that we were forced to do anything, we had choices and we had scripture to keep us in line with truth. This is not some heavy research project here that takes a theologian to discern or that one would need a masters in Greek to figure out. Does God say I should beat my child? Gee a concordance and a cup of coffee and I think most could figure it out.
Fine if that is the point stick to it don't drag stories of how we were forced to comply into it to bolster the claim. In the cases where this happened then those responsible own that and the wrong that goes with it . but that does not get us off the hook to do what we should have done either. It's two separate issues one they did wrong. two we now have a choice to do right or wrong according to the scriptures and what we were taught to do. No force a choice......
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WhiteDove
No it does not it is what it is their perspective you can say anything that does not make it truth. I can line up as many that would say otherwise you accept them as truth because you want to see it that way . And For the record I never said that they could not be true, that does not mean that the ministry forced or taught them to do such if it was, there are many reasons that could lead to that. You assume that because it happened, that the way must have taught it. And when faced with finding a record some tangible proof of that theory of course it is the return of the mysterious teaching that never was. I suppose anything you want to prove can be done with a theory like that. I suppose that I could say that the way never taught that we were to tithe either despite the recorded records and books. Oh yeah those aren't true yeah that's just what they said on paper, there was this mysterious teaching behind the scene that was the real story. No we were never taught to tithe. we all know what was really taught. Pretty lame when the written record says otherwise. The record of lack of teaching on child abuse is as clear as the record on tithing. I can accept both at face value and place the blame if any where it belongs on each individual if an abuser.
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polar bear
The problem is that the Word is not black and white. We all know that the scripture can be twisted to say whatever someone wants it to say. These leaders were given responsiblities to take care of God's people not Lord over them. Many of us just wanted to do God's will. It just took us a while to figure out we were being given the shaft by the ones we thought loved God. Glad we got out, and let the good times roll!
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WhiteDove
You may be struggling because you attributed a quote to me that Wasider said not me. I'll refer those questions to the poster.
As to this statement
I never said people who are victimized are at fault what I said was when faced with wrong teaching we have a choice to accept it or a choice to search the scripture to see if it holds truth. Which has nothing to do with rapes, muggings wife abuse and whatever else you added in to the mix. As Christians which at the time we were. when faced with a doctrine that did not sound right we should have responded by saying, that sounds strange I think maybe I need to look at what the Bible says and see if that is true or not. That is what we were taught to do. It Is Written.
Now we are faced with two choices check the scriptures or don't check the scriptures. If we don't check the scriptures then that is a choice our choice and we honestly should own the results good or bad from our choice. If we do check the scriptures on the other hand then we get the results of that choice which would have been truth, and we would have seen that what was presented was not scriptural. You wrongly assumed that there is fault in this there is not ,only choices and consequences that go with the choice. that's the way life goes we all face the same choices every day. but when we make a decision and my bible says free will choice, then we need to own that choice good or bad results. In this case choosing to believe unscriptural words issued in a bad choice and various results none good I dare say. True the teacher may have mislead you (but isn't that they way it usually is in life, Rarely is the choice clear that would be too easy) But his misdirection does not force you to respond in more misdirection We have a bible to refer to to help us make the right choice. If one fails to consult the manual then the result is yours when it does not work. Thats life........
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polar bear
I was not referring to White Dove's or Waysiders post. I was simply agreeing with the originator of the thread.
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WhiteDove
I tend to think it is, like I said this is not a major research project to figure out from scripture if God wants us to beat our children or anybody else for that matter with a two by four. I think most people could get it pretty quickly, of course one would have to put forth the effort to open the book and look. If there were any twisting going on it would be pretty quickly seen. Honestly it is a nice try playing the it could have been twisted card. But I'd be willing to bet that if a poll were taken of most Christians without even needing to check their Bibles most would be able I'd guess 90% would be able to tell you that beating your child was not scriptural. To imply that one could not know this because scripture could be twisted is ridiculous. Hell I'd bet most non Christians could figure out that the Bible does not promote beating your children. DUH........
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WhiteDove
No you quoted waysider's post and asked why I insisted something that I did not that is not agreeing with the originator of the thread.
Thats a question which I answered
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WhiteDove
That may well be Coolchef but if and where I was I accept responsibility for it. I was taught bettter, to check it with scripture. I won't pass on the responsibility to someone else for my lack of doing what I was taught to do. No one forced me to make the choice I did I could have made a different one.
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rascal
Dove, from what I know of you, you are just a really nice guy that was sheltered from the evil of twi.
You weren`t corpes, I don`t think you were even a wow, I am not sure you ever even left town for any length of time to experience other parts of of twi in all of the time that you were involved ....shrug
You know only what things were like in your insulated little corner of twi. What affected you directly.
It is wrong for you to claim to know what was taught to the wow`s to the corpes and to family corpes at any given teaching or location or time frame.
There are plenty of people here who heard this teaching. There are folks that have corroborated that it came straight from vpw.
There are numerous first hand accounts given here of it being used to coerce/force people to do horrible ungodly things.
No YOU weren`t taught this...ok
No YOU weren`t beaten....ok
No YOU weren`t forced to beat a child....ok
No YOU wern`t forced to have an abortion.....ok
No YOu weren`t forced to m&a a family member.....ok
No YOU weren`t forced to sell your home.....with the enforcement of this doctrine.......alright.....I am glad that it did not happen to you.....
But that in no way negates that there are many of us who WERE forced to do things, terrible things against our will and better judgement in order to remain under the umbrella of God`s protection..
This was the doctrine used that made us sit quietly by without daring protest.
It was cruel, it was wrong. It happened in a ministry and at the hands of ministers that claimed to be working for God.
From the fruit exhibited, I think that THE lied, NOT the people, espescially the children who suffered so grievously at their hands.
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rascal
Polar bear, I agree. The scriptures could be tortured to mean anything that the teacher wanted.....and if it didn`t sit right, we were always told the lack was in us or our understanding.
The good times are rolling for sure now!
Potato, I think that the fight is because if you don`t find a way to assigne blame the victim, you have to come to grips with the idea that the abuser whom you loved and trusted was not really who you believed that they were at all.
It is tough to find out that your trust was betrayed.
Mountain top, I agree....many indeed used their wealth to help and deliver, that was what made it all so confusing....but you had the guys at the top who were hiding behind the good hearted folks that were doing their best to help others.
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potato
strange that you assume that we did not.
I can see how the direction to beat a child, coming from a MOG after a period of indoctrination (like what I experienced first-hand) would seem both scriptural and spiritual, if the fear that your devil-possessed child would contaminate your family, turn on the rest of your children, and leave you at the mercy of Satan in the cold outside the "Household". I protected my child the best I could and I got out before he was a teenager or I might have been faced with the same choice, and having been worn down by constant accusations I might have made the wrong choice. others who had children with real psychological issues who needed real help would have had it so much worse, having the fault for their child's "devil possession" laid at their feet and the only redemption possible by getting rid of the problem.
I wonder if anyone ever took M fart-face's advice, and how they managed to live with themselves afterward.
the scriptural build-up to such "commandments" was logical and compelling, in case you were never subjected to them. if all of a sudden I was just directed up-front to do some of the things I was willing to do later, I wouldn't have stuck around, never mind if the bible said anything about it. the interpretation of biblical scripture varies so widely, if it was to be obvious to me what it meant, shouldn't it be to everyone? why so many interpretations and opinions if it's always so plain?
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potato
bingo.
I believed in the party line that it was OUR ministry, we work for the glory of GOD blah blah blah, it was fun and great in the beginning, until they got their claws into me, went WOW, went into the WC, that was the end of my freedom to question even though we got kicked out. after that, 2 different FCs in 2 different areas, beloved of the MOG, and my ex made sure I never questioned again while the FCs (found out later) lined their own pockets by the labor of the innocent, people who truly loved God.
it took years to bring me near the point of death. it took about 3 years to get out. I could not read the bible because twi's interpretation was in every verse and I would never be able to escape if I went to the scriptures to find hope.
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Dot Matrix
Whitedove:
I am reading your posts. I have always found you to be a loving man with an abundance of courage.
Here is the thing IMO. Yes, we were told to always check the scriptures. But did you ever buck the very leaders telling you to always check the scriptures? Now, maybe you did as I said I have always found you to be loving and courageous. But not all were like you. And the corps took the courage out of many of us as we were drained of our guts on a regular basis.
I think YOU may be a different sort of a guy. Perhaps you have the backbone I wish I continued to have as I was being filleted. When I read your posts, I wish you were there, in the corps at Rome City. Perhaps you would have been exactly what they needed. A prophet type to stand up and really declare "IT is written"
As punked out and cowardly as this will sound on my behalf --- I wanted to be that person. I wanted to challange. Each time I did, and I did, I was called "on the carpet". I was punished. I was told to shut up, I was ridiculed to silence. Not something I am proud of. I wish I would have stood up and declared it is written.
I did to VP about the adultery/sex crimes stuff. I went to M Fort to speak with him about things that were not right. I went to John L$$N, I went to many of them. Thing is they were not willing to receive it.
So, that is when I should have seen although it was preached by many, it was observed by few -- and I should have left. I stayed too long many of us did.
But I waited for someone like you speak of, someone to stand up and tell Craig (or whomever) ENOUGH IS ENOUGH -- It is written... I tried and failed to be that person. Perhaps if you had been there you would have made a difference. I am sure you did on the field. Or maybe we would have been friends and talked about how we tried to change things but couldn't.
Yeah, we are each responsible before God on how far we allowed things to go. Knowing something was not right but continuing down the path... And they are resposible for taking us down a path they knew to be wrong.
Many judged Mrs VP for staying with VP and for giving up seeing her kids etc. But many people gave their kids over to bullsh 1t. She is just one of many.
I spoke the scriptures when P@t POW**L was twisting "abundant sharing" He screamed me down at a corps meeting making me a joke. I didn't care. I was embarressed but wht I said was truth. That was the LAST corps meeting or WAY meeting I ever attended. I knew they were the joke and they were wrong. I also knew I could not change them. So, I changed me. Somewhere these "leaders" stopped preaching God's word and began to teach crap. I stopped eating crap. God's love tasted different then crap and I missed it.
Now to hear from those kids is horrible. I am sorry I did not walk on stage and say what I felt in my heart.
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Dot Matrix
So, yeah White dove your point is made.
They fed us crap.
But we opened our mouths and swallowed.
And nobody on this earth could ever make me hit someone with a 2X4
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lindyhopper
I don't think this is really about WhiteDove blaming the victim. Perhaps it is symantics.
Take force and replace it with coerced. No, no one took anyone by the hand and forced them physically to beat kids. No one physically took a pregnant woman by the hand and physically made her sign the medical papers to have an abortion, forced her legs in the sterups etc. yadda yadda yadda
People were coerced though. Of course, a synonym of coerced is forced.
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WhiteDove
Cathy
I was far from sheltered from the Way dear, I've tried to avoid talking about myself but since you seem to want to for me I suppose I will. I guess since my dear friend EX10 divulged some things about me awhile back on another thread you seem to believe you are an authority on my life and what I know and don't. Here's a clue you aren't.......
First I was in the Corps and although I married into the Corps I definitely took it to heart to participate in the program and serve as well as any Corps did. I know it is fashionable to view those who did not go through in residence training as a lesser Corps. I dealt with that as many Corps spouses have while The Way. And I guess It seems you want to see that I do again, after all these years. In fact I had a long talk with Jonny T about that subject as I was aware of that attitude before I got married. You may remember that he was honorary Corps himself. He gave me some good advice many years ago, he told me if I ever had someone cop that attitude to just look them straight in the eye and remind them that everyone was in the Corps because of God's grace. It was by His mercy and grace that they had made it this far in life. I guess that pretty much puts us all on equal footing he said. Don't even try to make me question my understanding or commitment to the Way Corps principles. He also said if I ever needed for him to have a talk with someone that he would be happy to do that. Do I need to?
Second I was married to a 3rd family Corps grad who lived at Rome City for many years. My step son Victor yes named after Dr Wierwille was a mini Corps there also for three years. My wife on occasion cut VPW hair and gave him manicures he knew Victor from his birth. His father was on staff there as well for many years. So I do have some idea what went on there. Victor spent summers there even after we had left the Way into the 90s.
Third you have no idea what I know or don't don't assume you do!
Fourth I have spent many hours reading through Corps notes, tapes and talking with and working with many Way Corps brothers and sisters. As I said I'd be happy to discuss what was taught and not with you anytime you want to. You might want to refresh your memory if you ever did read it in the first place sometimes I wonder? I've worked at most of the root locals at one time or another. and attended too many Corps meetings.
Fifth I have a good report among my peers and former leadership. I have worked along side of many for years from T Cr*b to R*ss Tr*cy to J. T*wnsend and many others. while I am embarrassed to discuss this they would be happy to speak to my caliber and service if you would like to inquire I'm sure.
Sixth I worked at the Way C of E for almost a year along side the Corps when they bought the place in 74. I ate slept ,and worked with them and attended some Corps night long before I was in the Corps household. There is a load of furniture at the Way Int. because I sent it there on the WAY Semi truck which included the executive desks that Howard and Craig used although I'm sure later they had new ones. I sent items to the Way Credit Union working with Ann*l** Sc*pur*
So you see for years I have worked with been exposed to and picked the brains of Way Corps I also sponsored a few along the way. As I said I took my responsibility to the Way Corps very seriously. And still do for that matter to the best of my ability attempt to. So before you lecture me on what I know and don't perhaps you need to look at your own life and what has become of your commitment. What makes you such an authority on Rome City? I never laid claim to know everything about the Way Corps nor the WOW program ever your assumption. Anytime you want to debate what was taught I'm right here waiting. I'm sorry you choose to resort to personal attacks rather than prove your point I thought better of you.
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waysider
So much of this reminds me of the old "frog in a frying pan" analogy so many of us have heard.
If you put a frog in a hot frying pan he will hop right out.
If you put it in a pot of cool water it will swim around happily,oblivious to the fact that you are slowly raising the heat until it's much too late.
Maybe I should post this on the "in the kitchen" thread :blink:
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markomalley
Mat 18:1 At that time the disciples came to Jesus, saying, "Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?"
Mat 18:2 And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them,
Mat 18:3 and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 18:4 Whoever humbles himself like this child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 18:5 "Whoever receives one such child in my name receives me;
Mat 18:6 but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened round his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.
There are many who became like children in TWI. Just as nobody would blame or, in fact, affix any sort of responsibility to a teenage boy (even a 16, 17, or 18 year old) who was sexually abused by a homosexual Catholic priest, it is inappropriate, in my opinion, to affix any sort of responsibility to those who were spiritually abused by twi leadership.
I am not saying that a person bears no responsibility to check the scriptures for him or herself, but, scripturally, the responisbility for abuse lays squarely and solely with those charged with pastoring, not with those pastored.
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LG
Doesn't have a thing to do with "lesser" anything. You never went through two years of in-residence Corps indoctrination, so you don't have the experiences of those who did. You also don't have other experiences of other people. That you lack experiences that others report does not invalidate their experiences. I think that's what Rascal was getting at.
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Dot Matrix
Okay Dove,
You do sound as though you held dear to "It is written" but you seem to be kind of judging those that were in the corps long after 1974. Perhaps in your portion (time frame) of the corps, leadership still rubbed elbows with you and were kind. They may have listened to you. I was also around in the early days and worked moving the word before corps ever got there. It was a wonderful life!
I regularly saw people like V!nce F etc and worked on limb staff.
I was over some corps being on staff (in my appointed area) so I was involved on a daily basis.
But nothing like those great early days EVER happened once I went in rez. Nothing. Things had soured. There was an almost cast system in place. And although I knew R@lph he would not even say hello in the hallway.
Later he told me that he was told if he spoke to any of us either WE would be tossed out or he would -- I forget which.
AT HQS. although VF and I had laughs on the field -- you would have thought I was walking posion ivy when I approached him.
So Dove, although your history is in the early roots and impressive, the corps you speak of -- and the corps I was in years later were completely different. And then those that came after me were even in a worse state from all the communications I have read.
So, back in the day I was also HEARD. I taught and shared the stage with an impressive line up. But by the time I got into the corps it bore no resemblance to the wonderland of working together I had previously experienced.
IT is unfortunate that we know what we have lived and we can learn from others about what they lived, but never REALLY live their lives.
You were around and in glory in the glory years. I know those years.
They were not a reflection of the years to come.
So, albeit TRUTH what you are saying and your truth of what you have lived, it may not be many of the other posters truth.
For instance, my truth is that VPW walked around with a woody looking for young girls to plug.
But there are people here who did not experience that. Does that invalidate my truth? No.
OR there are posters here who wanted to sleep with Craig or service VPW -- for whatever reason they saw it as a privilege. I cannot take away or remake their memories and convince them that VP and Craig were charlatans.
So, from your perspective it seems (as was my perspective in the early years) that all leaders were accessible. And that most would HEAR you. But things changed. Woman were once ordained. That changed. Once I was able to walk up to anyone and speak, that changed as well. And if you were not there at that time – it is hard to believe how difficult and crazy it became.
I think in some of your posts they may come across hard on people. And so the natural response is “you were not there.” And you have shown us you were VERY involved. You walked the walk. You were heard and listen to “great men” at that time.
But that is not the experience of some of the other people. Surely being as bold and reasonable as I can see from your record, you can understand that can’t you?
I know the time period of which you speak. I also know the time period from which some others are sharing. And there is a period of which I have no knowledge. Those that came in under Craig and never knew VPW. Or never took PFAL but Craig’s class.
I think the perspectives here are from different TWI experiences in different eras (or even areas).
Cathy and you are both right from your different vantage points. It is just those vantage points are now heated and seem as though “it was this way” “no, it was this way” rather than a discussion of “How was it for you?”
The years and changes in leadership made people’s experiences very different at times.
One person has a family member known to be passed around with pleasure so that posters’ perspective is always that the sexual attention was a desired feature in most TWI women. He has not been able to get passed his era and his perspective. ‘Cause that is his truth.
Can you guys see what I am saying?
Depending on the year and situation -- you are both correct. Neither is lying or distorting facts. IT is not a toe to toe battle where one is lying and one is not. You are both correct.
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Dot Matrix
When I was in Rome City my experience sucked.
We had a corps guy sick as he11. And the LEADER announced that if you were too sick to come to meetings/classes you were too sick to eat.
So, this guy was in bed for three days. He was not given juice TLC, soup anything.
Now that policy was probably not the experience of many. But it was what he and I lived through.
I went into the kitchen and took fruit then snuck it up to him. I called Mrs. VPW and she sent a car over to get him and took him into her home to nurse him. Turns out he was VERY ill.
The point being, in the early days this probably would be an event nobody would ever see as possibly happening.
I believe Dove's posts about what he was able to do. I believe Cathy's and the mini corps. Can't we see that it just waxed worse and worse?
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skyrider
A few thoughts..........
It's totally a different set of rules when twi operates BEHIND CLOSED DOORS.....i.e. inresidence corps program / mog-whorship mentality / motorcoach-manuevering / corps peer pressure / corps sponsorship commitments to uphold / etc.
Sure...........I could have walked away at the first sign of VPW twisting the scriptures. Sure.........all of us, could have/ should have done things differently. Hindsight, ya know.
Was there a one-shoe-fits-all experience for all of us? NO.
Was the perfect time to exit twi during the mass exodus. NO.......some had to wait for the right conditions to align for spouse/family/ and all.
Even the Research Team abandoned wierwille in the early 80s. Guess they saw that wierwille's agendas were "off the Word."
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