quote: The basic premise of this thread is still that "It is impossible to obey God without first obeying leadership." - as it was taught.
Personally, that would have offended me and no matter who taught it I would have rejected the teaching - and I was considered leadership!
There are too many incidences where a person goes against a leader only to do God's will... young King David comes to mind.
One that comes to my mind is Ananias of Acts 9. Leadership was apparently too scared to do what God needed done. So a "certain disciple" was tapped by God and got the job done. Leadership didn't even need to know about it.
I think it will be revealed that most if not all of us have at times done things on our own that God directed us to do that helped the body of Christ. I believe there were people I witnessed to who never came to fellowship or took the class but took my words to heart and eventually made godly decisions for their own lives.
Personally, that would have offended me and no matter who taught it I would have rejected the teaching - and I was considered leadership!
you must have been gone by the time Craig Almighty laid that on the people in those exact, yes I said exact, words. the teaching may have been around implicitly before that although I don't recall it, but lcm most definitely delivered it in that form with scripture build up to back it up.
yes, we who believe do help people, with or without the mog's permission. however, twi teaching made me constantly doubt God's voice in me. it actually became the antithesis of what I thought twi stood for, which was walking spiritually, not by law. we had law. lots of it, and it changed as the "Word" changed "for our day and time" as "as given to the man of God for his people".
I left when Lcm demanded loyalty to him. 1987 or there abouts
somehow I was shielded from that. I didn't hear it until I had a few years of indoctrination behind me. I think I first heard it when I went wow in 1990.
quote: you must have been gone by the time Craig Almighty laid that on the people in those exact, yes I said exact, words.
I was gone BECAUSE of it. LCM didn't deal directly with me, but some of his faithful buttkissers did. I never heard anybody use those exact words, but I'm not surprised. Sometimes I think LCM just wanted to get rid of anyone who had been in TWI when VP was alive.
It was at a twig coordinator's meeting in '78 in CT, where I was taught the '4 steps down from the Mystery'.
Number 1, above all else, was 'turning your back on the Man of God'. Followed by a good hour of learning that the man of God is to be obeyed in every situation, since God put Him there. If you don't believe Him you don't believe the word, and have no business being a twig leader.
It was all about control from the top down. They hit on a masterful way of making sure every one stayed in line. If your immediate 'supervisor' is speaking for God, then they could control Joe Believer in Oshkosh by the spiritual chain of command. That's your Way Tree in action.
I'm sure I threw my weight around as a twig leader, though i tried not to be a jerk about it.
Potato, I get confused in these threads, too, when people don't bother to say whom they're quoting. It's one of my pet peeves.
Johniam, that obeying leadership crap started way before the reign of the big forehead. I don't know how many times I heard VPW say "the man of God's suggestion was tantamount to a command," and it was abundantly clear he was referring to himself.
I was as Waybrained as the next girl, but even I bristled at that at the time.
Hi Linda... Long time no speak, good to "see" you again....
In response to the question of this thread... Two words....
BULL S#!+
A quick look at the scriptures in the book of Acts tells us when the believers of the day, under specific threat of their very lives said, "... we ought to obey GOD, rather than men."
Period.
I do remember the talk about suggestions from "the man of God" being tantamount to a command.
I bristled at it at the time and frankly never really bought into it.
I know that the statement comes from the millitary where they are teaching soliders basic RESPECT for their leadership - in the specific context of the military.
We aint military.
... also, I always felt that we were really in no position to "command" anything of anyone, anyways....
i did a lot of quoting without saying who. sowwy. i think i did it because i didn't want to be so confrontational because i kind of went off which i always feel bad about even if at the time i have a strong opinion. then later i feel like crapola because well whatever.....
My dearest sister exsie: I forgive you. Go and sin no more.
Actually, even my pet peeves don't bother me that much. It really only bugs me when someone is arguing and I can't tell who they're arguing with and have to scroll back to get the context. "In the context" and "used before," ya know.
I love you exsie. You can quote without attribution any time you like. I'm giving you one of those things they give Catholics...sorta like a get outa jail free card...I forget what it's called.
quote: Johniam, that obeying leadership crap started way before the reign of the big forehead. I don't know how many times I heard VPW say "the man of God's suggestion was tantamount to a command," and it was abundantly clear he was referring to himself.
I never heard VP say it, but I've heard others say it and I saw people mimic reverends even to the ridiculous degree of trying to copy their voices. I was never confronted about why I didn't mimic reverends more. Whew. I just think there's a difference between being told to respect leadership and being told that it's "impossible" to obey God without first obeying leadership and it was when my leadership got forceful about it that I finally jumped ship.
I believe that you quoted me the BBQ Bird! No biggie I still :wub: You.
I know that you generally don't read all the long threads completely so I did want to point this out.
My opinion was in response to the question at hand only. I do believe that it is and was possible to obey God without obeying your leadership. Had more spoken up at the start of the error perhaps others would have been spared the consequences and application of the error later on. I realize that there were ,often a price to pay for speaking up but IMHO they were not worth the price others would pay from me not speaking what I know to be true. I also wanted to point out that I was speaking about those who could speak and act I was not speaking to or about anyone that that was not able to do so due to physical restraints or chemical restraints.
I just started to read this thread and not all of it but I agree. Following men gets us in deep trouble. I live and breathe the scriptures that tell us we ought to obey God rather than men.
I was always irritated when leadership had to be treated so special, almost put upon a pedestal. I remember Pat P. getting a memory book from the believers.
It was sickening, they all praised him not God. I refused to write in it. It sits on his coffee table,. I quess it makes him feel special or something. Ha!
The leader is to serve the believer not slave away on his property and detail clean his house and car!! I think the work took the place of loving and ministering to people because you were so stressed out from all the hard work you were too tired to do antyhing else.
I have been confronting these men lately. why? because I still have people I love in that bondage. It is like slavery.
I quess I am venting a little. It feels good!!!!!!!
I was always irritated when leadership had to be treated so special, almost put upon a pedestal. I remember Pat P. getting a memory book from the believers.
take out the word "almost" and i will agree ha !
a memory book !!!!!! god thank god i have no memory :)
i really wish pat p. and doughboy would get real lives. like ones where god matters and his nice children
THe topic deals with obeying leadership, children were just one of the area's. So I do think I am on target with these thoughts, but thanks for the note.
I would not call it hate but more a dislike of evil. I think before you form opinions, you should perhaps walk in someone's shoes. I do know for sure that God dislikes families being torn apart. I do know for a fact that God gave the responsibility of teaching the children to the parent's not the leaders.
They still don't seem to get it!!!!!! iT IS NOT POSSIBLE FOR GOD TO HATE.
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rascal
Ex, you said something very good, of course. Somebodies *happy* time at twi occured while somebody elsewhere was being slaughtered.
Potato, I think that is the only thing of value I bring away from my twi experience, a super high tuned bull sheet o meter.
I don`t have any respect for so called *leaders*.
I feel like a junk yard dog. They have been mistreated so repeatedly, that their hackles can raise and fangs are bared at the slightest provocation.
They are ferociously protective of what they consider *theirs*.
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johniam
quote: The basic premise of this thread is still that "It is impossible to obey God without first obeying leadership." - as it was taught.
Personally, that would have offended me and no matter who taught it I would have rejected the teaching - and I was considered leadership!
There are too many incidences where a person goes against a leader only to do God's will... young King David comes to mind.
One that comes to my mind is Ananias of Acts 9. Leadership was apparently too scared to do what God needed done. So a "certain disciple" was tapped by God and got the job done. Leadership didn't even need to know about it.
I think it will be revealed that most if not all of us have at times done things on our own that God directed us to do that helped the body of Christ. I believe there were people I witnessed to who never came to fellowship or took the class but took my words to heart and eventually made godly decisions for their own lives.
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potato
you must have been gone by the time Craig Almighty laid that on the people in those exact, yes I said exact, words. the teaching may have been around implicitly before that although I don't recall it, but lcm most definitely delivered it in that form with scripture build up to back it up.
yes, we who believe do help people, with or without the mog's permission. however, twi teaching made me constantly doubt God's voice in me. it actually became the antithesis of what I thought twi stood for, which was walking spiritually, not by law. we had law. lots of it, and it changed as the "Word" changed "for our day and time" as "as given to the man of God for his people".
excuse me while I go throw up now.
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doojable
I left when Lcm demanded loyalty to him. 1987 or there abouts
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potato
somehow I was shielded from that. I didn't hear it until I had a few years of indoctrination behind me. I think I first heard it when I went wow in 1990.
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dmiller
Potato--John was quoting Dooj, when he posted this--
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potato
d'oh!
I should learn to read. I'm too easily confused today!!!
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johniam
quote: you must have been gone by the time Craig Almighty laid that on the people in those exact, yes I said exact, words.
I was gone BECAUSE of it. LCM didn't deal directly with me, but some of his faithful buttkissers did. I never heard anybody use those exact words, but I'm not surprised. Sometimes I think LCM just wanted to get rid of anyone who had been in TWI when VP was alive.
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hiway29
It was at a twig coordinator's meeting in '78 in CT, where I was taught the '4 steps down from the Mystery'.
Number 1, above all else, was 'turning your back on the Man of God'. Followed by a good hour of learning that the man of God is to be obeyed in every situation, since God put Him there. If you don't believe Him you don't believe the word, and have no business being a twig leader.
It was all about control from the top down. They hit on a masterful way of making sure every one stayed in line. If your immediate 'supervisor' is speaking for God, then they could control Joe Believer in Oshkosh by the spiritual chain of command. That's your Way Tree in action.
I'm sure I threw my weight around as a twig leader, though i tried not to be a jerk about it.
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Linda Z
Potato, I get confused in these threads, too, when people don't bother to say whom they're quoting. It's one of my pet peeves.
Johniam, that obeying leadership crap started way before the reign of the big forehead. I don't know how many times I heard VPW say "the man of God's suggestion was tantamount to a command," and it was abundantly clear he was referring to himself.
I was as Waybrained as the next girl, but even I bristled at that at the time.
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HCW
Hi Linda... Long time no speak, good to "see" you again....
In response to the question of this thread... Two words....
BULL S#!+
A quick look at the scriptures in the book of Acts tells us when the believers of the day, under specific threat of their very lives said, "... we ought to obey GOD, rather than men."
Period.
I do remember the talk about suggestions from "the man of God" being tantamount to a command.
I bristled at it at the time and frankly never really bought into it.
I know that the statement comes from the millitary where they are teaching soliders basic RESPECT for their leadership - in the specific context of the military.
We aint military.
... also, I always felt that we were really in no position to "command" anything of anyone, anyways....
Still aren't....
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Linda Z
Good to see you, too, HCW!
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excathedra
i did a lot of quoting without saying who. sowwy. i think i did it because i didn't want to be so confrontational because i kind of went off which i always feel bad about even if at the time i have a strong opinion. then later i feel like crapola because well whatever.....
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Linda Z
My dearest sister exsie: I forgive you. Go and sin no more.
Actually, even my pet peeves don't bother me that much. It really only bugs me when someone is arguing and I can't tell who they're arguing with and have to scroll back to get the context. "In the context" and "used before," ya know.
I love you exsie. You can quote without attribution any time you like. I'm giving you one of those things they give Catholics...sorta like a get outa jail free card...I forget what it's called.
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johniam
quote: Johniam, that obeying leadership crap started way before the reign of the big forehead. I don't know how many times I heard VPW say "the man of God's suggestion was tantamount to a command," and it was abundantly clear he was referring to himself.
I never heard VP say it, but I've heard others say it and I saw people mimic reverends even to the ridiculous degree of trying to copy their voices. I was never confronted about why I didn't mimic reverends more. Whew. I just think there's a difference between being told to respect leadership and being told that it's "impossible" to obey God without first obeying leadership and it was when my leadership got forceful about it that I finally jumped ship.
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WhiteDove
Dear Exie
I believe that you quoted me the BBQ Bird! No biggie I still :wub: You.
I know that you generally don't read all the long threads completely so I did want to point this out.
My opinion was in response to the question at hand only. I do believe that it is and was possible to obey God without obeying your leadership. Had more spoken up at the start of the error perhaps others would have been spared the consequences and application of the error later on. I realize that there were ,often a price to pay for speaking up but IMHO they were not worth the price others would pay from me not speaking what I know to be true. I also wanted to point out that I was speaking about those who could speak and act I was not speaking to or about anyone that that was not able to do so due to physical restraints or chemical restraints.
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pinklady
I just started to read this thread and not all of it but I agree. Following men gets us in deep trouble. I live and breathe the scriptures that tell us we ought to obey God rather than men.
I was always irritated when leadership had to be treated so special, almost put upon a pedestal. I remember Pat P. getting a memory book from the believers.
It was sickening, they all praised him not God. I refused to write in it. It sits on his coffee table,. I quess it makes him feel special or something. Ha!
The leader is to serve the believer not slave away on his property and detail clean his house and car!! I think the work took the place of loving and ministering to people because you were so stressed out from all the hard work you were too tired to do antyhing else.
I have been confronting these men lately. why? because I still have people I love in that bondage. It is like slavery.
I quess I am venting a little. It feels good!!!!!!!
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Abigail
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excathedra
thank you whitedove
oh and thank you linzee, was that absolution ?
--
pinklady said
take out the word "almost" and i will agree ha !a memory book !!!!!! god thank god i have no memory :)
i really wish pat p. and doughboy would get real lives. like ones where god matters and his nice children
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pinklady
THe topic deals with obeying leadership, children were just one of the area's. So I do think I am on target with these thoughts, but thanks for the note.
I would not call it hate but more a dislike of evil. I think before you form opinions, you should perhaps walk in someone's shoes. I do know for sure that God dislikes families being torn apart. I do know for a fact that God gave the responsibility of teaching the children to the parent's not the leaders.
They still don't seem to get it!!!!!! iT IS NOT POSSIBLE FOR GOD TO HATE.
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excathedra
i'm not sure dear pinklady if you are talking to me
but i just wanted to say that i don't just agree with you, i MORE than agree with you
love,ex
sorry for my lack of communication
mwah
good luck with everything in your life and family
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Linda Z
Thank you, exsie. Absolution...that's it. I couldn't think of it for the life of me.
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Shellon
The Milgram Experiment always makes me think of any/all of this.
http://home.swbell.net/revscat/perilsOfObedience.html
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