It's worse than that. In earlier days they knew they were doing this.
Two examples from the 80's when HQ used to have a "research" department.
One guy who worked in that department had a degree from U of Chicago (I think) studying aramaic. He would contribute to way material, but would not allow anything to be published with his name on it because he knew their take went so against the recognized scholarly research and he didn't want to sour his reputation in case he ever desired to go back to the academic community.
Another guy who worked in that department told me they knew that some of vpw's teachings were contradicted by all the existing biblical texts. However they took the position that vpw was right and if/when they could find earlier texts than those that had been found so far he was sure vpw would be proven right.
If only I'd had the emotional maturity to act on the obvious ramifications of that information. But alas, it wasn't my time yet.
The biggest mistake that TWI "leadership" ever made with me was teaching me how to use research materials. In the early nineties our LC's wife gave me or copied for me many of her Corps notes on Greek grammar. I'm pretty good with languages, so, although I'm no Greek scholar, I was able to teach myself enough so that I could at least check out what I was being taught.
We never had any big "research heavyweights" in our Limb, or even region, so I was well beyond most of the local Corps within a few years.
Initially I used my skills to more firmly root in my mind what I was being taught; but balked at saying anything when I found problems.
The first was the whole athletes of the spirit teaching. None of the interlinears, concordances, lexicons, etc supported the interpretation that TWI propounded. At that time I just "held it in abeyance", figuring I'd see it someday.
It wasn't until the Allen lawsuit and its aftermath that I was motivated enough to really check this stuff out and question it.
Convinced that since Martindale wasn't spiritual enough to realize that screwing another man's wife was wrong, he wasn't spiritual enough to teach anything, let alone a class designed to be the foundation.
After a year going through the WayAP class and starting on PFAL I had about ten typed pages of errors. The most egregious errors were the "Original Sin of Mankind" and "The Face of the Deep" from WayAP. I went to leadership with my research findings, rebutting everything Martindale taught virtually word by word.
My twig coordinator hemmed and hawed and said that he couldn't find any errors. (This was not a stupid man - he was probably the only other person in the region to have any facility with Greek, and was in some ways a very logical thinker)
Rather than b.s around with the Way Tree, I went right to John Reynolds. John phoned me one night and gave me no real answers. He asserted that Rivenbark had a hand in the research that went into the class, and it had been "checked out". (As if that was an answer). Reynolds suggested I discuss my concerns with Tom H, who would be teaching the class live. Reynolds said that because TH was teaching WayAP live, he would be "working the Word" in preparation and would be able to answer my questions.
TH had no answers other than "I don't need to work the Word; if this class is good enough for the Trustees, it's good enough for me". The only concern that he had was that my doubts were infecting the "household".
Eventually I was confronted for posting on GS, although I never admitted to it, I told Mrs. TH that either someone would have to explain why I was wrong, or the Trustees would have to change what they were teaching. Well, neither happened. I was kicked out less than a week later.
They were never interested in my "research", nor in my conclusions, they were only interested in getting me to conform.
Back in the early 90s, I took an Old Testament history class in college about a month after my first PFAL indoctrination session (something I don't recommend doing, a pure recipe for disaster).
Early on, in a one-on-one discussion with the professor, I pointed out the Genesis 1:2 "was" should be "became." He looked at me kind of weird, thought a minute, then said he didn't think the Hebrew word there contained any notion that would support translating it that way.
Of course, I then went to the word "replenish" latter on in Genesis, and its compliment in the flood story. That's when he put me in my place. He said that the Hebrew word there (of which language he was very well versed in) had nothing to do with restoring to a former state. It only means "to fill." He also said that's the danger in using the KJV, written in Old English.
Latter on, I verified what he said about replenish. It is an Old English word and only means “to fill.”
When I heard Craig repeat Vic's "why would God tell them to replenish the world if it didn't have something there before" in the WAP class, the first fissure in my respect for TWI's research authority erupted.
Since then, the lava has flowed, destroying any and all TWI "research," and any respect I may have had for them. To be honest, I can't think of one thing TWI teaches that could be considered accurate. They are not a research ministry (nor the other two functions they claim, but we can leave those for another time).
I barely escaped out of the Old Testament history class with a passing grade. The professor and I locked horns several times, to the point he finally told me to either go along with the class or drop out. I shut up and did what I was told.
Wish I knew how to contact him now. I owe him a debt of gratitude for helping me to think straight. I would also like to take his class again.
And more to the point of this thread, I did discuss the definition of replenish with others. I didn't take it up the TWI deadwood, but would have gotten the same response.
Anytime a point of logic concerning the Bible was discussed, that contradicted official TWI doctrine, TWI doctrine trumped it. If the logic was so glaringly obvious, the best response would be "hold it in abeyance." That stupid doctrine is one of TWI's best tools for keeping people from questioning them and continue towing the line.
Reading this has show me how much of the TWI teachings have been flushed out over the years. The "replenishing" the world brought back some memories. I'd forgoten that. Boy am I happy.
My3Cents, what did we learn? "Practical error becomes doctrinal error"? Looks like we're seeing a classic case of it now. Those people in the research department are much wiser and gone by now, but the inaccurate "research" remains and those left behind are in"doctrinated" to believe it's all true and accurate.
The way I see it regarding emotional maturity: no matter how long it took for us to act on getting out, the most wonderful thing is that we got out! :D--> Glad to have you here and I really appreciate your insight.
((((Oak)))) You are a wonderful research buddy! It was fun when both of us were teaching accurately at fellowship and correcting wrong doctrine without anyone being the wiser, or if they were, not saying anything about it. Were they numb, deaf kool-aid drinkers or did they realize what we were doing, I wonder.
Anytime a point of logic concerning the Bible was discussed, that contradicted official TWI doctrine, TWI doctrine trumped it. If the logic was so glaringly obvious, the best response would be "hold it in abeyance." That stupid doctrine is one of TWI's best tools for keeping people from questioning them and continue towing the line.
Bob, I was also shut up several times by them saying, "What does vee pee say about that in such and such book?" Like that's enuf said. Maybe Mike should look into going back.
The class had a required weekly discussion meeting. My arrogant Way Brain was very disrupting to it. He was right to tell me what he did. He wasn't angry either, just trying to keep the discussion productive for the whole class.
My3Cents, what did we learn? "Practical error becomes doctrinal error"?
Using a statement like that is another way of framing the question to give power to those in authority.
It assumes that any practice or doctrine is either error or not - either right or wrong. Thus anyone who can discerne truth from error has a lot of power over those who can't discern it as well.
I don't look at life that way anymore. I tend to view things as useful or not rather than right or wrong.
Bob, why yes it is Miz Scarlett. She's a rather plucky southern lady and I respect that, faults and all. ;)--> Thanks to Paw for helping me with it.
My3Cents, you make a very good point. I don't necessarily subscribe to the practical becoming doctrinal the way TWI teaches it, but a psychopath can tell a lie so many times and so emphatically that eventually he begins to believe that it's truth. Regardless, the way TWI handled research and teaching is a perfect example of their very own "practical error becoming doctrinal error" teaching. Just another TWIt irony. :D-->
Gotta respect a woman who can hold her own when the entire world is falling down around her. Add her looks and a nice southern accent....nothing better.
Back to the topic,
I find it funny that TWI preaches against anyone doing "private interpretation" of the Bible, insisting on letting the "Word" speak for itself, when in fact they have done their own private interpretation of the private interpretation verse and have not let it speak for itself.
I find it funny that TWI preaches against anyone doing "private interpretation" of the Bible, insisting on letting the "Word" speak for itself, when in fact they have done their own private interpretation of the private interpretation verse and have not let it speak for itself.
In fact, it's impossible to ignore that language is imprecise - regardless of whether it's greek, aramaic, King James, or modern English. And since words are what the bible is made of, they limit the precision that is possible.
I know a woodworker who jokes "Measure with a micrometer, mark with chalk, cut with an axe" The point being you can't get more precise than your least precise tool and language (never mind life) is just not as precise as the way wants to make it. No wonder a person who subscribes to their beliefs needs to ignore so many things they know in their gut. When (if) they get tired of ignoring those things, they have no choice but to leave.
I know a woodworker who jokes "Measure with a micrometer, mark with chalk, cut with an axe" The point being you can't get more precise than your least precise tool and language (never mind life) is just not as precise as the way wants to make it.
Excellent post, My3Cents! Thank you. I particularly like how you said:
quote:
...language (never mind life) is just not as precise as the way wants to make it. No wonder a person who subscribes to their beliefs needs to ignore so many things they know in their gut.
Didn't we just put aside those uncomfortable feelings so much more often that we realized? I know I asked questions a few times and got met with such an uncomfortable silence or stammering that I eventually quit asking. I should have kept on pushing. Eventually they would have pushed me out or had to own up to the fallacies of their logic.
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My3Cents
Belle,
It's worse than that. In earlier days they knew they were doing this.
Two examples from the 80's when HQ used to have a "research" department.
One guy who worked in that department had a degree from U of Chicago (I think) studying aramaic. He would contribute to way material, but would not allow anything to be published with his name on it because he knew their take went so against the recognized scholarly research and he didn't want to sour his reputation in case he ever desired to go back to the academic community.
Another guy who worked in that department told me they knew that some of vpw's teachings were contradicted by all the existing biblical texts. However they took the position that vpw was right and if/when they could find earlier texts than those that had been found so far he was sure vpw would be proven right.
If only I'd had the emotional maturity to act on the obvious ramifications of that information. But alas, it wasn't my time yet.
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Oakspear
Link to the related discussion in the Doctrinal Forum:
http://gscafe.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/1...06139#456106139
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Oakspear
The biggest mistake that TWI "leadership" ever made with me was teaching me how to use research materials. In the early nineties our LC's wife gave me or copied for me many of her Corps notes on Greek grammar. I'm pretty good with languages, so, although I'm no Greek scholar, I was able to teach myself enough so that I could at least check out what I was being taught.
We never had any big "research heavyweights" in our Limb, or even region, so I was well beyond most of the local Corps within a few years.
Initially I used my skills to more firmly root in my mind what I was being taught; but balked at saying anything when I found problems.
The first was the whole athletes of the spirit teaching. None of the interlinears, concordances, lexicons, etc supported the interpretation that TWI propounded. At that time I just "held it in abeyance", figuring I'd see it someday.
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Oakspear
It wasn't until the Allen lawsuit and its aftermath that I was motivated enough to really check this stuff out and question it.
Convinced that since Martindale wasn't spiritual enough to realize that screwing another man's wife was wrong, he wasn't spiritual enough to teach anything, let alone a class designed to be the foundation.
After a year going through the WayAP class and starting on PFAL I had about ten typed pages of errors. The most egregious errors were the "Original Sin of Mankind" and "The Face of the Deep" from WayAP. I went to leadership with my research findings, rebutting everything Martindale taught virtually word by word.
My twig coordinator hemmed and hawed and said that he couldn't find any errors. (This was not a stupid man - he was probably the only other person in the region to have any facility with Greek, and was in some ways a very logical thinker)
Rather than b.s around with the Way Tree, I went right to John Reynolds. John phoned me one night and gave me no real answers. He asserted that Rivenbark had a hand in the research that went into the class, and it had been "checked out". (As if that was an answer). Reynolds suggested I discuss my concerns with Tom H, who would be teaching the class live. Reynolds said that because TH was teaching WayAP live, he would be "working the Word" in preparation and would be able to answer my questions.
TH had no answers other than "I don't need to work the Word; if this class is good enough for the Trustees, it's good enough for me". The only concern that he had was that my doubts were infecting the "household".
Eventually I was confronted for posting on GS, although I never admitted to it, I told Mrs. TH that either someone would have to explain why I was wrong, or the Trustees would have to change what they were teaching. Well, neither happened. I was kicked out less than a week later.
They were never interested in my "research", nor in my conclusions, they were only interested in getting me to conform.
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Bob
Back in the early 90s, I took an Old Testament history class in college about a month after my first PFAL indoctrination session (something I don't recommend doing, a pure recipe for disaster).
Early on, in a one-on-one discussion with the professor, I pointed out the Genesis 1:2 "was" should be "became." He looked at me kind of weird, thought a minute, then said he didn't think the Hebrew word there contained any notion that would support translating it that way.
Of course, I then went to the word "replenish" latter on in Genesis, and its compliment in the flood story. That's when he put me in my place. He said that the Hebrew word there (of which language he was very well versed in) had nothing to do with restoring to a former state. It only means "to fill." He also said that's the danger in using the KJV, written in Old English.
Latter on, I verified what he said about replenish. It is an Old English word and only means “to fill.”
When I heard Craig repeat Vic's "why would God tell them to replenish the world if it didn't have something there before" in the WAP class, the first fissure in my respect for TWI's research authority erupted.
Since then, the lava has flowed, destroying any and all TWI "research," and any respect I may have had for them. To be honest, I can't think of one thing TWI teaches that could be considered accurate. They are not a research ministry (nor the other two functions they claim, but we can leave those for another time).
I barely escaped out of the Old Testament history class with a passing grade. The professor and I locked horns several times, to the point he finally told me to either go along with the class or drop out. I shut up and did what I was told.
Wish I knew how to contact him now. I owe him a debt of gratitude for helping me to think straight. I would also like to take his class again.
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Bob
And more to the point of this thread, I did discuss the definition of replenish with others. I didn't take it up the TWI deadwood, but would have gotten the same response.
Anytime a point of logic concerning the Bible was discussed, that contradicted official TWI doctrine, TWI doctrine trumped it. If the logic was so glaringly obvious, the best response would be "hold it in abeyance." That stupid doctrine is one of TWI's best tools for keeping people from questioning them and continue towing the line.
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Bob
a·bey·ance
1. suspension
- temporary inactivity or nonoperation
Pretty much sums up the Way Brain syndrome, a suspension of brain activity.
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ex70sHouston
Reading this has show me how much of the TWI teachings have been flushed out over the years. The "replenishing" the world brought back some memories. I'd forgoten that. Boy am I happy.
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Belle
My3Cents, what did we learn? "Practical error becomes doctrinal error"? Looks like we're seeing a classic case of it now. Those people in the research department are much wiser and gone by now, but the inaccurate "research" remains and those left behind are in"doctrinated" to believe it's all true and accurate.
The way I see it regarding emotional maturity: no matter how long it took for us to act on getting out, the most wonderful thing is that we got out!
:D--> Glad to have you here and I really appreciate your insight.
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Belle
((((Oak)))) You are a wonderful research buddy! It was fun when both of us were teaching accurately at fellowship and correcting wrong doctrine without anyone being the wiser, or if they were, not saying anything about it. Were they numb, deaf kool-aid drinkers or did they realize what we were doing, I wonder.
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Belle
Bob, that's really neat! I can imagine your professor rolling his eyes and groaning every time you wanted to speak or ask a question. LOL!
We were pretty darn egotistical about all our puffed up knowledge weren't we? I didn't know about the replenishing either. Thanks for sharing that.
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Belle
Bob, I was also shut up several times by them saying, "What does vee pee say about that in such and such book?" Like that's enuf said. Maybe Mike should look into going back.
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Bob
Speaking of epiluo, I know I've seen your avatar somewhere and I just can't place it.
Is it Scarlett O'Hara in Gone With The Wind?
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GeorgeStGeorge
Hmmmm... sounds like TWI!
George
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Bob
Sorry, didn't mean it that way.
The class had a required weekly discussion meeting. My arrogant Way Brain was very disrupting to it. He was right to tell me what he did. He wasn't angry either, just trying to keep the discussion productive for the whole class.
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My3Cents
Using a statement like that is another way of framing the question to give power to those in authority.
It assumes that any practice or doctrine is either error or not - either right or wrong. Thus anyone who can discerne truth from error has a lot of power over those who can't discern it as well.
I don't look at life that way anymore. I tend to view things as useful or not rather than right or wrong.
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Belle
Bob, why yes it is Miz Scarlett. She's a rather plucky southern lady and I respect that, faults and all.
;)--> Thanks to Paw for helping me with it.
My3Cents, you make a very good point. I don't necessarily subscribe to the practical becoming doctrinal the way TWI teaches it, but a psychopath can tell a lie so many times and so emphatically that eventually he begins to believe that it's truth. Regardless, the way TWI handled research and teaching is a perfect example of their very own "practical error becoming doctrinal error" teaching. Just another TWIt irony.
:D-->
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Bob
Gotta respect a woman who can hold her own when the entire world is falling down around her. Add her looks and a nice southern accent....nothing better.
Back to the topic,
I find it funny that TWI preaches against anyone doing "private interpretation" of the Bible, insisting on letting the "Word" speak for itself, when in fact they have done their own private interpretation of the private interpretation verse and have not let it speak for itself.
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My3Cents
In fact, it's impossible to ignore that language is imprecise - regardless of whether it's greek, aramaic, King James, or modern English. And since words are what the bible is made of, they limit the precision that is possible.
I know a woodworker who jokes "Measure with a micrometer, mark with chalk, cut with an axe" The point being you can't get more precise than your least precise tool and language (never mind life) is just not as precise as the way wants to make it. No wonder a person who subscribes to their beliefs needs to ignore so many things they know in their gut. When (if) they get tired of ignoring those things, they have no choice but to leave.
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skyrider
That's funny.....thanks.
:D-->
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Bob
Given the amount of talent TWI currently posseses in regards to research ability, I would surmise that:
- They measure with their middle finger.
- They mark with a paint roller.
- They cut using a backhoe.
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Belle
Excellent post, My3Cents! Thank you. I particularly like how you said:
Didn't we just put aside those uncomfortable feelings so much more often that we realized? I know I asked questions a few times and got met with such an uncomfortable silence or stammering that I eventually quit asking. I should have kept on pushing. Eventually they would have pushed me out or had to own up to the fallacies of their logic.
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Bob
The latter is not an option, too much money and power (redundant?) involved. You only would have accelerated your exit.
Either way, it's a win-win -- although it would not appear as such while still in.
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Belle
By request
:( Oak's link doesn't work anymore. I'm trying to find the thread now.
Epiluo in the Doctrinal Dungeon
Found it!!
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